Hello,
I always struggle with the fly construction. Right now the biggest issue I always seem to have is the seam at the underlayer (Wearer's right side) always seems to show a little. I've followed Paulin's book, which has you add an extension to the WR Side- 1/2" width at top of waistband tapering down to 1/4" at end of zipper, which has helped, but I still tend to have the seam show a little.
Paulin's:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bsmLBndD/PXL-20241015-144501154-MP.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bsmLBndD)
My Zipper:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T5Rqk26J/PXL-20241015-132719208.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/T5Rqk26J)
I think part of the problem is the front rise is curved at that area, creating a concave shape, so when it is joined to the other side, both sides are concave and struggle to overlap. See pattern here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFqQ2nFH/Screenshot-2024-10-15-at-10-57-16-AM.png) (https://postimg.cc/WFqQ2nFH)
Any suggestions or tricks to get a nice overlap? Any books or reference materials that talk more about this? I've only found Paulin's.
Thanks in advance.
The following is not necessarily conventional, but it's what I do. Hopefully I've got this right - my brain is a little frazzled at the moment.
Lay the topside pattern so that the fork is on the right and the side-seam on the left, i.e. so that a left-hand-side front is cut from the top cloth (and a right-hand-side front cut from the underside). Mark an additional 3/8" UNDER-LAP for tucking the fly. Simply draw a line parallel with the fly seam, 3/8ths away and graduate it into the top of the crotch curve (don't extend it all the way). This assumes that a seam allowance has been factored into the draft. If not, the 3/8ths is in addition to any seam you mark.
After cutting through both layers of cloth, remove the 3/8ths excess from the LHS, leaving a 3/8ths under-lap on the RHS only. You need to thread-mark the seamline for transferral to the underside, so that you can correctly align the CF seams when making the trousers.
A fly-bearer will also help prevent the zipper from being exposed.
Edit: looking at the diagram you posted, it follows the same principle? Difficult to tell because the text isn't complete. I'll have to check my book when I have a moment.
OK, I checked Poulin and I've pretty much repeated what he's said, though I use a greater underlap and graduate the line into the curve rather than ending it abruptly. I also don't taper the line as it descends. That might help in your case. It tucks the bottom of the zip in a way that might feel a little unfamiliar, but it does hide it better.
I never read his section on trouser-making, so I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in doing this! :)
Be sure to thread-mark the CF line on each piece, including the seam lines of the crotch curve, so that you're aligning things properly and creating the desired underlap.
Thanks Gerry! Much appreciated. I think we were doing it almost the same way, but instead of an 1/4" at the bottom it sounds like you have 3/8". I tried adding that extra 1/8" at the bottom and marking the CF like you mentioned and it helped quite a bit with covering the seam. Now I'm getting some funky drag lines from the curve and the interior needs some work, but here's the new version:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xJ8JYmFX/PXL-20241016-010611328.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJ8JYmFX)
Curious what your pattern looks like compared to mine, specifically does your zipper placement go into the crotch curve?
Also when sewing the J-Stitch, how do you keep the fly shield out of the way so it doesn't get caught in the stitch?
My construction is a little unorthodox, so that may be the cause of some of my issues too.
I mark the extension on the cloth, it's not part of the pattern. This is what it would look like, however:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YhCz4zhn/Fly-Underlap.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YhCz4zhn)
The zipper is taken into the top part of the curve. You can see from my diagram that eventually the seams mirror one another for the main part of the sewing. If you get tension in the curve after sewing, then you might need to stretch the RHS seam a little at the curve using the iron, to allow it to sit flatter.
My fly-guard isn't sewn all the way down the seam. It's 'free' at its base so it doesn't get in the way when topstitching the fly-facing. After stitching the J-curve, a bar tack secures the base of the guard to that of the facing.
You're getting creep from the machine by the look of things, plus some lateral displacement. The LH side's front cloth and fly-facing need to be kept totally flat while sewing. Secure by basting and/or pinning to prevent the two pieces from shifting relative to one another. Press them first then baste along the edge and also just outside of the sew line.
In bespoke it's more typical to pick stitch the fly facing by hand. Not only is it more invisible, but you're less likely to create and trap fullness within the J-curve (as is happening in your photo). Even so, the area still needs basting when hand-sewing, to prevent this problem. Stab-stitch thick areas, and pick normally when/if the cloth becomes more manageable.
If you're going to machine, then it helps to tension the pieces too while you're sewing. Hold the waist from behind the foot and the base of the CF from the front (tricky, but do your best). Now gently pull in both directions with equal force. It has to be equal in order to neutralise the forces (we're not trying to pull the cloth through the machine from behind). This technique takes the give out of both pieces, which helps to prevent creep. Unpick the J stitching of your sample and try again. Press the whole area first and at the very least pin everything. Keep unpicking and practising until you get the hang of things. If it doesn't improve, consider hand-stitching.
I took a look at the last pair of trousers I made where I machined the facing. I didn't know a lot of the above at the time, so had similar issues. Not quite as bad as in your photo, but still not great. Oh well, they're still wearable.
As I mentioned earlier, the base of the fly might feel a little unfamiliar, because you need to reach into it a little more than usual. You get used to it though, and I never have a problem with the zipper showing. I also prefer this method to the usual 'Rob Peter to pay Paul' approach of creating an underlap. It's the first time I've seen it detailed in a book. Good old Poulin!
Qustion; do you use metal or other zippers?
Cheers, Hendrick
Practice is part of perfection. Two pieces pulled between the hands and let the machine feed it through.
Jane Rhineharts book has some explanations that has useful knowledge. (Download)
Stanley Hostek has a few books with useful knowledge.
It is interesting that some tailors can have some of the same information that tailors from other regions.
Thank you for taking the time to help me here...
So on your pattern the zipper stops around this area:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1fgGgcbr/Screenshot-2024-10-18-at-1-23-42-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/1fgGgcbr)
Yes, I think stretching the crotch curve straight will help with releasing the tension created from sewing two curves together.
I sewed another mock-up together. I think I should try straightening the curve where there is a gap in the photo below. I think when I force that curve to go straight in order to overlap it is buckling the fabric. In one of my drafting books it instructs to start the front crotch curve as high as possible for a nice shape that wraps around the body nicely, but I don't know that it works for a zipper construction, maybe button fly. I do worry that straightening that line is going to create an unflattering long straight line, since my waist sits a little higher, but I don't think it's working as it is:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nXhtYrY2/PXL-20241017-141756961.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nXhtYrY2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0zQLK3PH/PXL-20241017-203821367.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zQLK3PH)
This is probably one of the uglier fly's I've done, but it's defintely overlapping now which is hopeful:
(https://i.postimg.cc/21kCc2m4/PXL-20241018-165907363.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/21kCc2m4)
I tried guiding the fabric under to take tension off of it. I also reduced the pressure of my presser foot. As mentioned I think it's something I need to continue practicing to get better and consistent results. I do think the shape of my patterns is creating some issues too though- thoughts?
Quote from: Greger on October 18, 2024, 12:25:40 PMPractice is part of perfection. Two pieces pulled between the hands and let the machine feed it through.
Jane Rhineharts book has some explanations that has useful knowledge. (Download)
Stanley Hostek has a few books with useful knowledge.
It is interesting that some tailors can have some of the same information that tailors from other regions.
I have both of those books/references- I'm going to look through them again as I don't remember seeing/reading that. Paulin's book is the only one I remember that really talks about adding that extension for the overlap. It's surprising that more pattern books don't talk about it and how to construct it.
Thanks for the tips!
Its been a while since sewing up a pair of pants. Her book, page 94, explains how she does it. The tailor she learned from probably taught her this method. It explains overlapping by a quarter inch. Bast them together so you can open it up enough to bast the zipper and fly together. Then open it up and sew it a couple of times. After that you can sew below. The way I do it a little bit of "dress" is sewn out.
Where I put the bottom of the zipper is where it ends at the bottom, unless it is too too long. I don't want to waste time with fiddling around with nonsense. Close enough is close enough.
Are you sewing the crotch first? Don't!
Quote from: Bifurcator on October 19, 2024, 04:45:13 AMThank you for taking the time to help me here...
So on your pattern the zipper stops around this area:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1fgGgcbr/Screenshot-2024-10-18-at-1-23-42-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/1fgGgcbr)
What you've drawn is pretty much spot on. Ideally, the zipper comes down as close as possible to the point where the seams equalise in width, but that's not always practical. If things are a little shorter, it shouldn't be a big deal.
QuoteYes, I think stretching the crotch curve straight will help with releasing the tension created from sewing two curves together.
The curves are the same shape, so that's not where the tension arises. It's when the seams are pressed to lay flat that problems can arise, because the hem edges are shorter in length than the seam/sew line over the crotch curve. Subsequently the edges of the
seams (and not the crotch curve) may require a little bit of a stretch with the iron to lay properly. The way I do things, the RHS seam is going to be a little fatter at the top of the curve than the seam on the LHS. Therefore it may require a little more work. Merely pressing the seams open will often produce the necessary stretch. However, fatter seams can present more of a challenge; especially in my case because the extended seam isn't 'released' by a cut (as shown in Poulin's diagram), hence the need for a bit of iron work; and also the need to take the zipper down as far as is practical.
QuoteI sewed another mock-up together. I think I should try straightening the curve where there is a gap in the photo below. I think when I force that curve to go straight in order to overlap it is buckling the fabric. In one of my drafting books it instructs to start the front crotch curve as high as possible for a nice shape that wraps around the body nicely, but I don't know that it works for a zipper construction, maybe button fly. I do worry that straightening that line is going to create an unflattering long straight line, since my waist sits a little higher, but I don't think it's working as it is.
I should point out that my image is for a pair of low-rise trousers. So we're not comparing like with like. Early drafts for pantaloons, and modern drafts for low-rise pants, often share the same crotch curving. Typically it's a quadrant (a quarter of a circle), or thereabouts. So the distance between your seat and crotch line is taken out for the width of the front fork extension. Higher-waisted trousers tend to have the curve starting higher up with shaping as demonstrated in Poulin's diagram; and for the reason that you quoted. The higher start to the curve is sometimes mirrored by an extended fork. Either way, it shouldn't present any problem; and if your trousers are higher in rise, stick with it. If in doubt, post a photo of your draft, though I don't make high-waisted stuff so others will be better informed to comment.
Your second sample isn't necessarily as bad as you think. By laying it flat you're forcing a three dimensional object to lay in a two dimensional way. Hence a lot of the stress lines. If you hold the piece up by the waist, allowing the curve to fall backwards as intended - don't forget that the crotch curve passes back between the legs - it will probably look a lot better. Either way, it looks better than the first sample. You're on the right track.
Incidentally, the CF of my pattern looks more angled than it actually is. I drew round the pattern with it at an angle (not intentionally!). There's only a half inch difference in width between top and bottom, so the angling isn't excessive.
PS When you're pinning, try angling each pin at 45 degrees. Because the pins are on the bias, the cloth will stretch to accommodate their intake, helping to avoid rucks in the cloth and keeping things flat. Also, if you use more pins you can just use their tips. Less intake will again reduce rucks. It can be a little annoying because the pins are more inclined to fall out (take care when taking things to the machine), but it does help.
PPS If you're not doing so already, press the crotch seam open after sewing, before doing the J-curve.
Quote from: Gerry on October 19, 2024, 05:50:28 AMThe way I do things, the RHS seam is going to be a little fatter at the top of the curve than the seam on the LHS. Therefore it may require a little more work.
Just to clarify, both CF seams end up being pressed open/back by the width of the seam allowance used; so after pressing there's no fatness to speak of on the RHS - a discrepancy is only noticeable prior to pressing. However, due to the way I graduate the the extension into the crotch curve, there's going to be slightly less length along that side's seam edge. So a little more iron work may be required at the curve to get the seam to lay flat as intended.
Thanks for all the tips and advice! I have a few home projects I need to finish up, but when I have time will try another mock up with the new advice given. Will update with pictures and thoughts in the next few days. Thanks again!
Thanks again for all the help, tips and advice.
I read through Hostek and Reinhardts fly construction directions. I did a mock up of Hostel's. It was a little difficult to follow, but I gleaned a few insights like the importance of doing a lot of baste stitching and he attached zipper to facings and shield before attaching to the pants. He only suggest offsetting right and left sides by about a 1/4" at top, going to zero at bottom, so the right side zipper seam was still showing at the bottom, anyhow I was only trying his way to gain insights.
I think a few key takeaways are
-mark the CF line, where left side needs to overlap to and baste before sewing zipper to facing on left side
-Dont force the curve part of rise on left side into a straight line at CF, it creates buckling. As long as it's cover seam and top stitch of right side it's ok.
-basting wherever the fabrics tend to want to pull
-watch and avoid the presser foot pulling/stretching the fabric
After the Hostek mock up I did another mock up (below) using my construction and using the tips and advice given.
On this one I sewed the rise seam below fly last, which made it easier to create the fly, especially the left side with J-stitch, but was a little tricky to get the presser foot all the way to the bottom of the J Stitch because flys facings are sewn down at that point.
I do think maybe I will try straightening out the left side front, where zipper is attached, a little. Even though its overlapping, the curve isn't really doing anything for the fit and does make aligning to CF line difficult.
I still need to fine tune J-stitch shape and still not completely happy with what's going on beneath the fly so going to continue tweaking/experimenting construction and pattern in that area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ftxbL4xg/PXL-20241023-133033728.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ftxbL4xg)
On another note, any chalk recommendations or tips? I use mainly cotton fabrics and it seems to always leave a permanent mark. It makes doing the final garment sewing much harder because I'm always scared to use it on final cloth.
That's the best results so far, well done. As I hinted at earlier, you'll have more control over the j-curve, and probably get a cleaner result at the base if there's bulk, if you do it by hand and pick stitch. Plus the stitching will be more invisible.
As for chalk, avoid the waxy stuff. You get a nice line with it and it's great for doing outlines that are going to be concealed, but it's not a good idea to use it to mark the surface of cloth where it will be visible. It tends to leave a residue.
Any natural chalk should be okay. When you're done, dip the bristles of a firm clothes brush in a bowl of water and brush the chalk away. That should get rid of it all. Avoid pressing chalk that's used to mark the run of top stitching, however. Apply the chalk after pressing otherwise you can ingrain the marks into the cloth. Especially if you've used steam.
For lighter coloured cloths you can use an erasable pen. Pilot are a good brand. Although sewing firms make these things, they're usually cheap and nasty and run/dry out quickly. Pilot, on the other hand, are designed for drafting and are a quality product - they last. The ink disappears with the heat of an iron. It can, however, leave residue. You always have to test your fabric. On some shirting, even though it's natural cotton, I've had faint white marks left after pressing. Sometimes you have no option but to use chalk.
Did someone post this already?
https://web.archive.org/web/20130511020830/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3298&st=18
Thanks...each one get's a little better. These are a more casual style, so pick stitching isn't quite the right look for this one, but will keep it in mind.
Thanks for the chalk and pen advise. I picked up a couple of pilots and a brush. I'll try the wet brush technique next time. I think part of my problem is accidently pressing too. I think I just need to be more cautious in general.
Quote from: Gerry on October 24, 2024, 05:33:49 AMThat's the best results so far, well done. As I hinted at earlier, you'll have more control over the j-curve, and probably get a cleaner result at the base if there's bulk, if you do it by hand and pick stitch. Plus the stitching will be more invisible.
As for chalk, avoid the waxy stuff. You get a nice line with it and it's great for doing outlines that are going to be concealed, but it's not a good idea to use it to mark the surface of cloth where it will be visible. It tends to leave a residue.
Any natural chalk should be okay. When you're done, dip the bristles of a firm clothes brush in a bowl of water and brush the chalk away. That should get rid of it all. Avoid pressing chalk that's used to mark the run of top stitching, however. Apply the chalk after pressing otherwise you can ingrain the marks into the cloth. Especially if you've used steam.
For lighter coloured cloths you can use an erasable pen. Pilot are a good brand. Although sewing firms make these things, they're usually cheap and nasty and run/dry out quickly. Pilot, on the other hand, are designed for drafting and are a quality product - they last. The ink disappears with the heat of an iron. It can, however, leave residue. You always have to test your fabric. On some shirting, even though it's natural cotton, I've had faint white marks left after pressing. Sometimes you have no option but to use chalk.
Quote from: Greger on October 27, 2024, 08:08:08 AMDid someone post this already?
https://web.archive.org/web/20130511020830/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3298&st=18
This is great- thank you! I'm going to dig through those other old posts when I have some time.
This is the latest one, that still needs some tweaking at the bottom, but is pretty clean overall. I did completely straighten the seam where the zipper attaches and left overlaps. I love the look of having the zipper on the curve, but see image below this one to seeing buckling affect I continued to struggle with. I've yet to see how this straightening of the seam is going to affect the fit (fingers crossed).
(https://i.postimg.cc/5H2STMgZ/Screenshot-2024-10-28-at-9-59-59-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/5H2STMgZ)
Here you can see the buckling affect I couldn't avoid when trying to forced the Curved Front to the CF. I don't know if it's because it's too curved or the combination of the curve and the angle, but essentially it seemed difficult trying to overlap to concave curves that angled away from each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3hwGLVm/Screenshot-2024-10-28-at-10-07-08-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/R3hwGLVm)
This is the left pattern cut all the way to the seam line along the zipper length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/94DqyXJF/Screenshot-2024-10-28-at-10-02-30-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/94DqyXJF)
Bifurcator, you're still thinking two-dimensionally and the body isn't a flat surface, is it. Furthermore, your mock-up doesn't reflect the reality of what happens when the two sides are overlapped (you're trying to join them like a seam, which isn't the end result).
I've done the following by eye, so it's not to scale or exact: the shape is generally curved like the front but I've deliberately exaggerated the overlap to prove that it isn't problematic. Firstly, fold over your seam allowances to the wrong side as can be seen here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFzrZ375/Fly-Mock-Up-Back.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFzrZ375)
Note that I've had to tear the paper in order to do this. It replicates the stretching required by the iron in order to release the tension along the outer edge. Also note that the two sides are only joined at the base of the crotch curve; and that the upper parts overlap as they wish to fall (hopefully as we've designed for). In this example, I added 'underlap' to the right hand side of the pattern, graduating it into the original crotch curve as demonstrated earlier. Not very accurately done, but hopefully you can see that it's a continuous seam (albeit one with cuts along it - the limitations of paper), rather than the Poulin example which abruptly cuts the underlap short. The right side slips under the left side - they're not sewn together as a seam, are they.
Now see things from the front:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WDXgtr0D/Fly-Mock-Up-Front.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WDXgtr0D)
Note how everything curves nicely if you're not trying to push it against a flat surface. Starting the crotch curve higher deemphasises the crotch by allowing a little more ease over the front. It looks more natural with higher rise/traditional trousers.
Hosteck and I were talking about one fly is a little straighter than the other (it might be in his book). Forgot which side. A book I was reading said to shrink one side a little bit. It said Never Stretch. Gerry is saying stretch the seam allowance, which is a different subject. So, One side of the seam is shrunk and the other side (seam allowance) is stretched. Some of the pressing maybe best pressed over a ham, mit, or sleeve roll.
Quote from: Greger on October 29, 2024, 06:33:57 PMHosteck and I were talking about one fly is a little straighter than the other (it might be in his book). Forgot which side. A book I was reading said to shrink one side a little bit. It said Never Stretch. Gerry is saying stretch the seam allowance, which is a different subject. So, One side of the seam is shrunk and the other side (seam allowance) is stretched. Some of the pressing maybe best pressed over a ham, mit, or sleeve roll.
I was tought that the underpart should be 3mm shorter than the upper fly and that the weight and bulk of the material is in play as well.
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: Gerry on October 29, 2024, 06:07:35 PMBifurcator, you're still thinking two-dimensionally and the body isn't a flat surface, is it. Furthermore, your mock-up doesn't reflect the reality of what happens when the two sides are overlapped (you're trying to join them like a seam, which isn't the end result).
I've done the following by eye, so it's not to scale or exact: the shape is generally curved like the front but I've deliberately exaggerated the overlap to prove that it isn't problematic. Firstly, fold over your seam allowances to the wrong side as can be seen here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFzrZ375/Fly-Mock-Up-Back.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFzrZ375)
Note that I've had to tear the paper in order to do this. It replicates the stretching required by the iron in order to release the tension along the outer edge. Also note that the two sides are only joined at the base of the crotch curve; and that the upper parts overlap as they wish to fall (hopefully as we've designed for). In this example, I added 'underlap' to the right hand side of the pattern, graduating it into the original crotch curve as demonstrated earlier. Not very accurately done, but hopefully you can see that it's a continuous seam (albeit one with cuts along it - the limitations of paper), rather than the Poulin example which abruptly cuts the underlap short. The right side slips under the left side - they're not sewn together as a seam, are they.
Now see things from the front:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WDXgtr0D/Fly-Mock-Up-Front.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WDXgtr0D)
Note how everything curves nicely if you're not trying to push it against a flat surface. Starting the crotch curve higher deemphasises the crotch by allowing a little more ease over the front. It looks more natural with higher rise/traditional trousers.
Yes, good point about thinking in 2-D and wanting the garment/fabric to lay flat while sewing and after. I definitely want a garment with shape, in the right places. Figuring out how to control that shape and where it lays is a never ending learning curve :)
To be fair, I understand it should overlap not connect like a seam. I think my photo/pattern mock-up was a little misleading. This is what it looks like in garment form and when I push that curve of the wearer's left side to meet the line on the wearer's right side it buckles, but to your point it doesn't necessarily need to lay completely flat. I am getting a little bit of an issue with the facing "rippling"/ buckling at the edge. But I think a lot of this is just coming down to practice at this point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bssdQRxP/PXL-20241030-184000200.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bssdQRxP)
Anyhow, really appreciate you taking the time to shed light on this problem. I feel like I'm starting to beat a dead horse now and just need to practice, tweak, and practice some more. Even more so I need to get back to making full garments and let go of it trying to be completely exact and perfect, for now.....
Quote from: Greger on October 29, 2024, 06:33:57 PMHosteck and I were talking about one fly is a little straighter than the other (it might be in his book). Forgot which side. A book I was reading said to shrink one side a little bit. It said Never Stretch. Gerry is saying stretch the seam allowance, which is a different subject. So, One side of the seam is shrunk and the other side (seam allowance) is stretched. Some of the pressing maybe best pressed over a ham, mit, or sleeve roll.
I don't remember reading that in Hosteck's book, but I didn't read from front to back, just jumped around to the constructions I wanted to try, I also don't retain much...haha...so quite possibly I did read it and just forgot. If you look at the image I posted above it would seam to make sense to make the left side straighter, reducing the concave shape. I may give it a try. If it's minimal I can see it hurting the fit of the garment especially if the underside still retains it's curve.
I'm not sure which side I would shrink.
I do remember Hosteck mentions cutting the facings a little more hollow than the garment at front curve. I think this would give it a little more room or hollowness in that area. I believe he refers to it as "spring", but I could be mixing that up.
Quote from: Hendrick on October 30, 2024, 05:54:03 AMQuote from: Greger on October 29, 2024, 06:33:57 PMHosteck and I were talking about one fly is a little straighter than the other (it might be in his book). Forgot which side. A book I was reading said to shrink one side a little bit. It said Never Stretch. Gerry is saying stretch the seam allowance, which is a different subject. So, One side of the seam is shrunk and the other side (seam allowance) is stretched. Some of the pressing maybe best pressed over a ham, mit, or sleeve roll.
I was tought that the underpart should be 3mm shorter than the upper fly and that the weight and bulk of the material is in play as well.
Cheers, Hendrick
The underpart being the right side of the garment and corresponding fly shield? Just 3mm taken off the top?
thanks
Quote from: Bifurcator on October 31, 2024, 11:54:35 AMThis is what it looks like in garment form and when I push that curve of the wearer's left side to meet the line on the wearer's right side it buckles, but to your point it doesn't necessarily need to lay completely flat. I am getting a little bit of an issue with the facing "rippling"/ buckling at the edge. But I think a lot of this is just coming down to practice at this point.
If you place the back of your hand underneath the cloth where the rippling is, it will probably disappear; though the edges don't look pressed, so some of that distortion may be tension from the seams having been turned back. The seam edges at the curve are mostly on the bias, so the cloth should naturally stretch how it needs to with only a light press over a ham.
Either way, stop making judgements when laying things flat! :) You can't properly evaluate what's going on because you're buckling cloth out of shape: it wants to curve in a 3-D way (that's what we've designed for in the draft). Play around with the paper mock-up that I demonstrated and things will become a lot clearer in your mind (I can tell that you still haven't quite got it). The fronts don't oppose one another when curved, and when the crotch seams are joined and facing backwards. Everything complements each other.
Despite giving you an alternative method, you're continuing to pin in a way that creates buckling; which isn't helping, is it. I'd recommend basting instead; and baste over a ham or similar, so that there's some curvature to the fronts. That way you're securing the
required shape with the baste stitches. You're also securing the required lengths, which I think is what Greger and Hendrick were talking about. If you think of arcs drawn from the same point, the outer arc (the LHS, which overlaps) is going to have more length than the inner one (the RHS, which underlaps).
Best that the aforementioned forum-members confirm that, though. It's not something I'd thought about before ... which is why I come here: I always learn new things!
Quote from: Bifurcator on October 31, 2024, 12:10:50 PMQuote from: Hendrick on October 30, 2024, 05:54:03 AMQuote from: Greger on October 29, 2024, 06:33:57 PMHosteck and I were talking about one fly is a little straighter than the other (it might be in his book). Forgot which side. A book I was reading said to shrink one side a little bit. It said Never Stretch. Gerry is saying stretch the seam allowance, which is a different subject. So, One side of the seam is shrunk and the other side (seam allowance) is stretched. Some of the pressing maybe best pressed over a ham, mit, or sleeve roll.
I was tought that the underpart should be 3mm shorter than the upper fly and that the weight and bulk of the material is in play as well.
Cheers, Hendrick
The underpart being the right side of the garment and corresponding fly shield? Just 3mm taken off the top?
thanks
The other way of thinking about it, and I don't remember which, when it is on the left side it forces a slight curve, plus it has more to go over, being on the outside. The force part forces the outer edge to bulge out, which is desirable.
It was 20-30 years ago when I visited him twice. He lived about a 100 miles away. He brought up the subject, which I was still thinking about. I was asking if he had a booklet about fitting trousers. Sadly he didn't. His advice for fitting coats is very good in his coat book.
Quote from: Gerry on October 31, 2024, 08:59:12 PMQuote from: Bifurcator on October 31, 2024, 11:54:35 AMThis is what it looks like in garment form and when I push that curve of the wearer's left side to meet the line on the wearer's right side it buckles, but to your point it doesn't necessarily need to lay completely flat. I am getting a little bit of an issue with the facing "rippling"/ buckling at the edge. But I think a lot of this is just coming down to practice at this point.
If you place the back of your hand underneath the cloth where the rippling is, it will probably disappear; though the edges don't look pressed, so some of that distortion may be tension from the seams having been turned back. The seam edges at the curve are mostly on the bias, so the cloth should naturally stretch how it needs to with only a light press over a ham.
Either way, stop making judgements when laying things flat! :) You can't properly evaluate what's going on because you're buckling cloth out of shape: it wants to curve in a 3-D way (that's what we've designed for in the draft). Play around with the paper mock-up that I demonstrated and things will become a lot clearer in your mind (I can tell that you still haven't quite got it). The fronts don't oppose one another when curved, and when the crotch seams are joined and facing backwards. Everything complements each other.
Despite giving you an alternative method, you're continuing to pin in a way that creates buckling; which isn't helping, is it. I'd recommend basting instead; and baste over a ham or similar, so that there's some curvature to the fronts. That way you're securing the required shape with the baste stitches. You're also securing the required lengths, which I think is what Greger and Hendrick were talking about. If you think of arcs drawn from the same point, the outer arc (the LHS, which overlaps) is going to have more length than the inner one (the RHS, which underlaps).
Best that the aforementioned forum-members confirm that, though. It's not something I'd thought about before ... which is why I come here: I always learn new things!
Yes, basting is best, it leaves the most movement to the cloth and shows bigger problems earlier. I have built far more womens' than mens' trousers but here's my approach. I like to make womens'trousers with a bit of nonchalance. But women hate front crotches with a "grin" so to speak. I project the shorter curvature of the front as a part circle and project a radius from where any unwanted bulging or waving sits. Correcting it by pinning, then opening the parts the curve changes notably. I like to do first toiles without fly (closed in the back) and cleaning out the front to get perfect "flat fronted" pants. I know this is more dress making technique than tailoring but it works for me.
Cheers, Hendrick
Bifurcator - have you tried Roberto Cabrera's method from his book? He shows a simple step by step procedure which has always worked well for me.
Are you running the zipper further down into the "J" than really necessary? If you keep it straighter it might be easier to overlap.
The key to Cabrera's method is basting. Mark your overlap, baste the left side onto it and let the zipper find its place.
Hope this is helpful.
Your fellow amateur,
Jim
Quote from: jruley on November 19, 2024, 01:46:38 AMBifurcator - have you tried Roberto Cabrera's method from his book? He shows a simple step by step procedure which has always worked well for me.
Are you running the zipper further down into the "J" than really necessary? If you keep it straighter it might be easier to overlap.
The key to Cabrera's method is basting. Mark your overlap, baste the left side onto it and let the zipper find its place.
I have never sewn a zipper into a curve (except in a pencil skirt). I suppose I'm to lazy for that! But I have made "deep" fly constructions with buttons. I especially like the WWII baggy chino's worn in the pacific. I believe these were called "south sea bubbles" or someting like that by GI's. The fly's were 2 inches wide on these and the pockets were deep enough to scratch your knees without taking your hands out!
Cheerio, Hendrick
Hope this is helpful.
Your fellow amateur,
Jim
Hi All,
Sorry for the delay here. Thank you for everyone's help and advise.
I had to move on and get back into making full pants. I can get a good overlap now and I've straightened the front crotch curve a little where the zipper needs to sew into it, but it still does have a decent amount of curve. I can get it to look neat but still have some tweaking to do. Maybe I will take some more pics or a video when I sew my next one to share. Marking the overlap edge and basting has definitely helped a lot.
@jruley I will check out Cabrera's method and maybe do a mock up following his steps. My construction is pretty unique to my design with everything being clean finished, which is also creating some of my struggles. And by amateur i'm sure you mean as someone who does it for the love of it ;)
@hendrick Yes, that deep fly is the look I'm trying to emulate, but using a zipper. I also love those old chinos and that's my inspiration. Just love how comfortable and sturdy they are. To your point though they were all buttonflys, which allowed them to go pretty far down with the fly. Never heard the term "south sea bubbles", pretty interesting/funny.
This is one of my latest trouser zippers, done using the Cabrera method:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ftYGCJCq/DSC-3789-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ftYGCJCq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wRHSGgbq/DSC-3790-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wRHSGgbq)
Both sides of the pattern are cut the same. All the overlap is done by basting.
But my zipper doesn't run very deep into the curve, so maybe that is the problem.
(P. S. - putting a tailor's ham under the fly allows the area to curve more naturally for photos.)
I cut my trousers with the same seam allowance on both CF's.
I usually leave 1.5 cm and when installing the zipper I align the edge of the zipper tape to the raw edge which offsets it adequately.
The left front I trim down after sewing on the facing.
I think that you do have to limit how far into the curve you can place the zip, as the zipper is less flexible and doesn't adapt to the curve very well.
Have to get some of those elusive curved zips if you want to do that!😉
Some use the iron to shape a curve into the zipper tape.
Hostek has a method in his book. Clarence Poulin has his method. How to make Men's Clothes has another method.
And the problem might be a fitting problem, because of too much stress, trying to push the seam open.