Recently I finnished my first jacket. Construction wise I have a pretty good concept of how to make the jacket. Material wise I am a little bit at a loss and I kind of improvised.
I am selfthought with youtube video's and some old books on tailoring. Unfortunately I am unable to actually feel (and smell) the fabrics. Looking for descriptions online are not helping me that much.
My question is mostly on the different canvas materials used. I did find horsehair canvas for the chest piece. But what is body canvas? What is collar canvas??
When I ask for canvas in the local fabric stores they point me to fabrics of wich I am sure it is not used in suits.
I found this website https://actk.nl/en/shop/ but I am not sure what al the fabrics mean and where they are used in the suit..
Would love to get some insight on this as I am very passionate to make high quality suits with the propper materials
Canvas is a weaving method, where a thick single weft thread picks 5 warp threads at a time. It is a heavy square woven cloth, usually in cotton or a mix. The other canvas you mention is used for creating structure in garments, usually men's. In the pas it was also sometimes referred to as "scrim", "crin" in french (the word "crinoline", a stiff underskirt, comes from that word). Another name is hymo, industrially it is mostly referred to as "henschel" (even in Portugel or Poland, a historical maker of hymo. It comes in many different weights but also different densities (more open or closed woven). So, I suppose that when you go into a regular fabric store and mention "canvas" you will probably be directed towards the first option...
Cheers, Hendrick
I do love chucking in red herrings. There is also linen canvas almost exclusively for waistcoat interlining, and always cut on the bias. At least in my old German literature.
I'd recommend that you purchase a couple of sample books from the Lining Company. The 'Tailoring Canvas' selection is mostly horsehair, both for chest and body (the former are labelled as 'chest'). The 'Linen/Flax' selection is collar (labelled as such) and body canvas, including 'Holland' for waistcoats:
https://www.theliningcompany.co.uk/shade-cards/booklets/
Even if you never buy from them, at least you'll have a better understanding of what is available and what the stuff feels like. Then perhaps you can find similar canvases locally (though they're a great company and do worldwide shipping).
While we're on the subject, I have a question. Am I right in thinking that a lot of the glassy-feeling linen canvas (like Holland) is 'glazed'? Is that the right term? Although I own a few books on fabric, none of them discuss lowly canvases. The only info I've found on this is from this curtain retailer (they mention that the canvas was used in military jackets:
https://www.paolomoschino.com/learn-the-process-natural-glazed-linen/
"As with nearly all of our fabric designs, there is an interesting story behind NGL. While Paolo was shopping for a vintage army jacket in a second-hand shop, he stumbled across an Irish military jacket with a distinctive linen lining. Paolo and Philip are known for finding inspiration in unexpected places, and as they admired the quality of the military jacket's fabric linin they realized it would be perfect for curtains and upholstery. This was the first step in learning the fascinating background to this textile, as Paolo, mesmerised by the natural, organic lustre of this sturdy linen lining, promptly started researching its origin. After discovering that it was made by the oldest linen-fabric mill in Ireland, Paolo contacted the fabric owners and they forged a deep, longstanding working relationship that continues to thrive to this day."
The curtains look like 'Holland' to me. Anyone?
This snippet here too:
www.encyclopedia.com/fashion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/glazing
@ Hendrick,
Yes they showed me the canvas weaving method fabric.
The name hymo gave me some good descriptions on google!
@Schneiderfrei
Good to know about linen canvas for waistcoats. I have also heard somewhere that the waistcoat canvas can be made from the same fabric as the body canvas. Or would it be more common to use the linen canvas?
@ gerry
Those sample books are interesting indeed. Might have to get some of those.
And I am also curioues about this Holland stuf..
From what I have gathered is that canvas comes in many different weights and compositions, Some with wool, some with goat hair, some with horse hair and some without any hair.
I guess it really is a matter of taste how the canvas is going to feel in the garment
Quote from: Lekpij on October 13, 2024, 11:39:38 PMFrom what I have gathered is that canvas comes in many different weights and compositions, Some with wool, some with goat hair, some with horse hair and some without any hair.
I guess it really is a matter of taste how the canvas is going to feel in the garment
Canvases come in all different weights. With the booklets that I mentioned, the specific weight is indicated on each sample. The general-rule-of-thumb is that you use a similar weight to the cloth you're using and not heavier. I'm not sure how well that holds up with canvas placed on/towards the bias, though. My feeling is that one can use a heavier weight. I'll test this in the new year, when I have a little more time to experiment.
Yes, often the type of canvas used is very much a personal preference. Sandwiching a piece of canvas between the cloth you intend to use gives you some idea of its suitability. And generally speaking, tailors have a preference for linen over wool/hair, or vice versa, when it comes to body canvas.
Chest canvas is usually horse hair and has a springy quality in one direction. You're probably aware of Reza's channel on youtube ('International School of Tailoring'). He demonstrates the properties of horsehair in one of his videos.
As for 'Holland', it's fairly thin stuff used specifically in waistcoats, where it's placed on the bias. Personally, I don't like it. I'm not keen on any canvas with a glass-like (glazed?) texture . Apparently it doesn't take well to being moistened either, or steamed with the iron, which can result in a 'crispy' texture (according to Rory Duffy). I have a few metres of the stuff which remains unused.
Yesss, and interestingly, body canvas in Belgium and Hlland is referred to by some tailors as "the linnen", circle round. I believe that in England linnen interfacing was called "scrim", but I am not sure.
@Gerry
Interesting points. Curious to hear about the canvas on the bias!
Also I have seen Reza's video's, still waiting on part 2 the finishing of the jacket.
I found the caffinated taillor's channel, He has some amazing video's on jackets, trousers and vests
@hendrick
I am from Holland! But I don't know any tailors here.. I did find the company "AC ter kuile", who sells all kinds of interlinging and canvas and such.
Another question. How does collar canvas differ from body canvas? Can they be the same? Or should you look for other properties?
Quote from: Lekpij on October 14, 2024, 07:42:21 AM@Gerry
Interesting points. Curious to hear about the canvas on the bias!
IIR, with waistcoats the canvas can be cut exactly on the bias. If you watch Rory Duffy's waistcoat video series on Vimeo (you have to rent it), I'm sure he demonstrates this. Some cut the canvas on grain, however, and I dare say some will tilt it towards the bias to varying degrees. With coats, the latter is always the case. If you watch the Stephen Hitchcock vid on Kirby Allison's channel, he demonstrates the concept (and highlights the problems that can occur).
A simple way to do it is outlined in A. A. Whife's book on garment making (separate chapters are available on the old forum - making a lounge coat is the one you want). The cross-grain of the canvas is aligned so that it's parallel with the shoulder-slope. It makes sense to me to align it so that the grain is parallel with the break-line of the lapel, which would help prevent the lapels from stretching out. Whether one could get away with that depends on the angle of the lapel though (how buttoned up the front is); and in both cases, the angle is going to vary from draft-to-draft, so not exactly consistent. Hence Mr Hitchcock's way of calculating things?
Canvas on the bias is a trait of soft-tailored jackets. However, if the canvas is too much towards the bias the lapel simply collapses under its own weight, rolling down to the next button. Which is how the whole three-roll-two thing started. Some regard this as a flaw. Personally, I don't. If done well, the roll can look beautiful. IIR, the chest canvas (if included) needs to be cut back further from the break-line to allow for the roll.
QuoteAnother question. How does collar canvas differ from body canvas? Can they be the same? Or should you look for other properties?
Generally it's heavier than the body canvas and it can also be stiffer. I'm sure that all sorts of stuff could be substituted. Again, it helps if you have samples so that you can make an evaluation.
Collar canvas can be French Linen. It Seized. (Soaked in something). Melton or felt is also part of the foundation of the collar. Melton is woven and felted. The felting allows us to sew on the edge (really close to the edge) without unraveling.
Pocketing is sometimes used in the lapels, if you want firmer lapels. Also, non stretchable material, such as linen non bias tape, is used as a bridle at the roll line of the lapel to prevent stretching, and shaping that part of the chest, to pull it against the chest, so the coat doesn't gap open. About 1cm of tape shorter than the part of bridle line length. Some people up to 2cm shorter. The same linen tape can be used from the gorge, down the lapel, down the front edge around and across the bottom. It keeps the front edge nice.
There are a number of books posted here that are down loadable some places on the internet. They explain little bits and different opinions.
Something about the main canvas. Some kinds of bias is lendable to different purposes. Men used to play golf with these coats. What bias angle is best for swinging golf clubs? If you are trying to persuade the bank to loan you a billion dollars I think a different canvas angle would be more convincing that you will make the timely payments until the loan is paid off.
So much about tailoring is about image.
QuoteAm I right in thinking that a lot of the glassy-feeling linen canvas (like Holland) is 'glazed
Calandering is the process that gives holland linen, Silesia and chintz a shiny surface.
High heat and pressure rolling.
I've noticed that the silesia we buy now is a lot less « shiny » than in the past, and the holland linen isn't the same quality either.
Thank you Terri, much appreciated!
When I was learning shirtmaking I used lightweight Selesia exclusively. It has all the properties of decent shirting but at half the price, so it didn't matter if I made mistakes. However, it does have a matt appearance, I agree with you. It also has a slight crumpled appearance. That's possibly just the lighter weight though.
Quote from: TTailor on October 15, 2024, 01:16:04 AMQuoteAm I right in thinking that a lot of the glassy-feeling linen canvas (like Holland) is 'glazed
Calandering is the process that gives holland linen, Silesia and chintz a shiny surface.
High heat and pressure rolling.
I've noticed that the silesia we buy now is a lot less « shiny » than in the past, and the holland linen isn't the same quality either.
That Terry has to do with todays limitations concerning the finishing of fabrics. The better qualities you mention used to be callandered hot, with a bit of parrafin or in some cases lanolin or even beeswax. Because these are esters they were usually diluted with chemicals containing benzenes and therefor no longer permitted. Further back though, turpentine was used and was far less damaging; man has cooked turpentine from trees since the old Greeks. To reach a "chinzed"effect, nowadays mostly teflon finishes are used that are equally, if not more, damaging to the environment...
Cheers, Hendrick
I had a look on YouTube and there are some good videos explaining the calendaring process. And having looked again at that second link that I posted earlier, it mentions that a calendar is used to glaze linen.
I wonder if Holland is impregnated with something to maintain the glazed look. It might explain why it goes crispy if exposed to water and heat. Also why a lot of glassy canvases don't like to be immersed in hot water, only cold. Possibly damages the resin/glue that's used?
@Greger
Interesting points on cutting the canvas on the bias for different purposes. A thought I had on this, would it be correct to think that the angle of the bias can "match" de angle of the movement the arms make for the intended activity? like in the golf example you would match it in the direction the arms make the swing or in the loan example you could cut it so you can write that signature more easily
Thank you all for taking the time to give these great answers, I wil be getting some samples soon and can then make an informed decission!
When body canvas is angled, it's done to create a degree of softness in the body of the coat. The arms don't really come into it They don't have canvas for a start; and sleeve cap height determines how much mobility you have in casual jackets. Things like hunting coats have pleated backs and extra ease in the crown of the sleeve, especially over the back part, which allows greater movement.
If you go back far enough, lounge coats were worn for all sorts of manual activity. I remember when I was a kid that many of the older generation used to wear them as workwear as if they were an overall. They were even worn when taking part in sporting activities (skiing etc). Hence the term sports coat.
Modern golfing jackets are more like bomber jackets. If one were to interface them, whatever you used could be put on the bias I suppose. It would be more like an underlining though. Just something to thicken the material and prevent it from creasing. Similar principle as when a waistcoat has the canvas placed on the bias, I guess. It doesn't really have the dual purpose of creating sculptured shape. Not to the extent that it does when used to reinforce lounge coats.
As mentioned earlier, there's a limit to how much you can angle the canvas when creating a sports/lounge coat. Angling it too much will cause the lapels to collapse and roll and the body will be too soft.
@Gerry
Ah I was way off. I thought it had to do with how the sleeves could pull on the rest of the jacket but it has more to do with the softnes. For now I wont be messing too much with biased canvas but in the future I will definetly experiment more with that aspect.
The 1949 tailor and cutter has a page or two with a few ideas of canvas angles. Could be three pictures. One angle you don't need haircloth. It's not always about rigidness. On the bias is more flex. Like the seat of the pants. Straight grain on the seat of the pants would not be good. The crotch area the same.
Granddad talked about boys who were very good artists. They come up with ideas they want to make. And his instructor would be teaching him something and come back to see how the lesson is going only to find him working on a shirt art idea (fashion/style). Some boys were unteachable. Canvass are for support and created for the need of the idea (art). Take for example an 1478 coat. The ideals and need of the coat is different than today. Men carried swords. The shoulder needs to be flexible for quick movement. The other canvass went into the stomach area. Armor, and while you are at it, fancy shaping. I remember granddad explaining how to make that coat to a previous apprentice. Anderson and Shepard cut the main canvas for drape and the secondary canvas is much smaller than other Saville Row tailors. Pad stitches are far apart. Even the lapels are stitched looser on some of there coats. An 1990s book,I think, explains padstitching six rows to the inch for some coats. Cheaper coats less and less and less. And there are different ways of padding. Back to the boys that couldn't be held to the lessons, had great designs, but didn't understand structure, their achievements were less.
When you have the front coat cut out put an incut canvas on it, or other way around, and keep shifting it, thoughts in-between, how the movements wanted will work with the angle and muscle development of the person to wear it. And then how much of the next canvas if there are more. And how you are going to pad stitch the various parts.
We want a nice hanging garment that fits. But, if I changed part of it, cut, canvas, stitching, would it be just as nice and better movements? Just because a book or instructor or famous tailor says so, well, maybe something else is better for that coat and person. Muscles can change a coat a lot. Be a thinking tailor instead of, we have to follow these rules. The old books talk about ever changing styles and fashions. Tailors have to be adaptable. And the one that figures the best methods brings in the most money.
Quote from: Greger on October 17, 2024, 06:31:01 PMBe a thinking tailor instead of, we have to follow these rules.
And how else are you going to discover something new if you only stick to the rules.
But as an absolute beginner some guidelines are very helpfull!
You can drape the canvas over the shoulder at different angles, pin what you need out of the way and see how it effects movements. Tape and pocketing can help hold the lapel roll. Some people like a flat roll and some a very round roll. And there are different ways of pad stitching lapels.
Also. A person's body shape can have reasons to change the "general" shape of the canvas. Might need to add canvas, felt, wadding, etc.