Hi all,
EDITED TO ADD IMAGES OF PATTERN
queuing my unending trouser difficulties with an attempt at a selvage denim pattern. Have been trying to settle on a suitable trouser draft for the better part of two years now, on and off, with no luck. Could use some expert advise, as I'm stuck with drag lines under my bum, or a too tight crotch if I manage to get rid of them. Fixing the tight crotch makes the drag lines reappear. Am close to giving up entirely, and just resigning to making shirts. Help my sanity please.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ftMXNCRP/IMG-5867.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ftMXNCRP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ygnRYRJ8/IMG-5869.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ygnRYRJ8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xkDMsnDn/IMG-5871.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkDMsnDn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KKPLwwxL/IMG-5872.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KKPLwwxL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jLN9X4Jn/IMG-5873.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jLN9X4Jn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hr9NGWzp/IMG-5874.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Hr9NGWzp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DWfM7Vp1/IMG-5875.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DWfM7Vp1)
Chanterelle, I sympathise with your trouser difficulties. I'm still not very happy with my own drafting/fitting efforts, but refuse to reverse engineer passable store-bought pants.
I am watching your posts eagerly.
G
Ps. I had a wonderful 2 years picking and cooking Chanterelles in the pacific northwest 22 years ago. Very fun. :)
The back fork looks as though it's not wide enough. It's pulling cloth in, resulting in "hungry bum". If you release the tension there, it will probably help with the tightness that's in the front too.
The yoke looks a bit flabby. You could probably do with a little less ease across the seat (once you've released the tension, that is), particularly across the yolk. The yolk also looks asymmetrical. Best to fix the sewing there first, before making further adjustments.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on October 12, 2024, 05:17:08 PMPs. I had a wonderful 2 years picking and cooking Chanterelles in the pacific northwest 22 years ago. Very fun. :)
My undergraduate mentor introduced me to mushroom hunting around 2012 and I've been hooked since. I kick off summer with a chanterelle and fresh snow pea pasta with tarragon and sherry. I like to make some handmade macaroni to go with it, like they do here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXgUovKf4s&pp=ygUXcGFzdGEgZ3Jhbm5pZXMgbWFjYXJvbmk%3D
I've realized I'm not much of a mushroom fan, ironically. But there are few better feelings than finding them popping up to pick!
It's also the name of my shirt making 'business' I have...just a handful of clientele...I do custom, made to measure by adapting my base pattern. It took me about 15 or so muslins, but I got a good, adaptable pattern quickly. Fitting myself for trousers has been infinitely difficult. Forward swinging hips and self-fitting is just exhausting...
Quote from: Gerry on October 12, 2024, 05:32:12 PMThe back fork looks as though it's not wide enough.
Here is my problem. extending the fork creates excess fabric under the bum, which gives drag lines. So my thought would be to slash and 'collapse' to effectively 'scoop' the curve, but I would expect this to be tighter in the fork. Maybe slash and collapse
and extend the fork? What do you think?
Quote from: Gerry on October 12, 2024, 05:32:12 PMThe yoke looks a bit flabby. You could probably do with a little less ease across the seat (once you've released the tension, that is), particularly across the yolk.
Ahh, so slash and collapse
and extend the fork? What do you think? Do I understand you right?
Quote from: Gerry on October 12, 2024, 05:32:12 PMThe yolk also looks asymmetrical. Best to fix the sewing there first, before making further adjustments
It's symmetrical actually. The left yolk seam allowance is stitched up, the right stitched down, so it appears misaligned. The seam is right on though. Just my mistake there.
Quote from: Chanterelle on October 12, 2024, 11:00:03 PMHere is my problem. extending the fork creates excess fabric under the bum, which gives drag lines. So my thought would be to slash and 'collapse' to effectively 'scoop' the curve, but I would expect this to be tighter in the fork. Maybe slash and collapse and extend the fork? What do you think?
As I mentioned earlier, cloth is being drawn into your backside, so your fork is too narrow. Plus there's tightness in the crotch at the front by the look of things. Perhaps the fork needs reshaping too, but whether you like it or not, it needs extending IMO. The excess below the seat is most likely on account of too much ease across the seat - it effectively filters down to the thighs on the back pattern.
One thing at a time. Sort out the fork first, then reduce some of the ease across the seat (how you do that will depend on how you draft/think about things). Any residual problems can be tackled after those steps (posture is probably contributing). No idea what you mean by slash and collapse.
Also, some of the drag lines you're experiencing are possibly due to your stance being narrower than the set of the legs. You can see in some of your photos that your inside leg is banging up against the inseam, rather than the leg being centred within the trouser leg. This is the downside to this type of straight-side cut: it favours those with narrow hips and a straight stance (feet directly beneath the hips).
PS you can test this by simply widening your stance to see if things look cleaner (particularly round the back).
Quote from: Gerry on October 13, 2024, 12:17:28 AMNo idea what you mean by slash and collapse.
Something like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0K2km5fZ/IMG-5885.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0K2km5fZ)
OK, understood. IMO you need to do the other alterations first before deciding what else is necessary.
Quite a lot of people try to tackle too much at once and it's never a good idea. How can one tell the effect of an alteration when simultaneously making a further two, three or more changes to the pattern.
Hi all,
I spent a few years consulting for jeans co's. Denim jeans are not drafted like trousers. The pattern of, say a Levis's 501, is drafted with the side seams as straight as possible and cut with the sides following the selvedge of the fabric. Denim was, originally, woven on narrow looms so economics were important. I effect, the only shaping in an original jean is in the yoke (or riser) and the front pocket. No serging was done on the outseam, only the part holding the pocket lining ($). As yo can see in the image, the midback of the pant is extremely tilted and straight; this gives the 501 its famous "diaper"effect. At the same time, being cut nearly bias, it ad ads more flex to the pant than a hollow fork. I know this is a little extreme but to me 5pockets pants with a trouser cut always look a little unusual. A while ago I posted something about the foldline in trousers, I believe Gerry did also... Here you can see that the foldline is completely disregarded.
Cheers, Henndrick
(https://i.postimg.cc/56m3XtTm/5p-flat.jpg)
A nice overview Hendrick! Yes, 501s were a great fit for me so long as I chose a size too small and stretched them in. Otherwise the seat would sag. And yes, classic jeans followed the earliest, Regency-period drafting models for 'pantaloons', and took a side-in approach with a totally straight side-seam.
These blog posts dissect a couple of classics, and they both show the typical, straight shaping of the CB seam:
https://ikajum.jp/en/blogs/the-study/501xx-47?srsltid=AfmBOooSfc800DyJaENY-FrEoUAneWpbm0DsBVpnFOh82P2rYW7nhFFb
https://ikajum.jp/en/blogs/the-study/wrangler-11mwz?srsltid=AfmBOorjxRO8fZ2I9qgBnWVH0Ua2HifJgQjRdip7yUR6Pb-J69kip21D
Although that's the norm, personally I'd shape jeans (not that I wear them at my age) more like normal trousers. In the mid-to-late 50s the French started styling jeans like that, and Bill Green (he had a few boutiques in London - probably the first of their kind - called 'Vince') copied the look and they became popular in late '50s Britain. So you don't necessarily have to change your approach Chanterelle. As Hendrick points out, the straight CB (unless you eliminate a lot of ease) can be saggy.
However, I would consider repositioning the leg to avoid drag lines if that's an issue, though it would mean abandoning the selvedge idea. Though you'll need to sort out the fork first to make an evaluation, because its tightness is distorting the cloth a fair bit (difficult to know if some of those drag lines are from the fork or the wide leg spacing ... or both).
Was thinking that the back seat seam was gouged out to much. Everybody's seat is different. Function and good looks for the style or fashion. After all, you are not making Mass-production. The yoke can be shaped to change the seat shape. Pulling up bagginess or lowering it. On Levi's pocket facing it is curved at the side seam. I personally would put in a western style front pockets. The belt loops would be arrowhead shape at the lower part of each. If you look at trew patterns, and explanations for making, including shaping with an iron, another style- Jack Tars, sailor pants, can have helpful information. One piece for leg. Is there a benefit to have a seam down the outer leg? Jeans are somewhat the same with an extra seam. The themes are different with somewhat patterns similar.
Greger is right, the back fork does look a bit scooped. Reshaping may be required, rather than extending it. Leave inlay and experiment.
Edit: unless the toile pieces are different from your draft, through alteration?
BTW, it's better to sew on a provisional waistband and pin it closed at the front. Because you've used a belt to keep your trousers up, it's possibly scrunching things around the waist, which makes it difficult to properly evaluate the fit. It could be that your yoke is fine. Difficult to tell if we factor in possible creases from the belt.
QuoteDenim jeans are not drafted like trousers.
Was coming here to say the same thing.
No they're not drafted like trousers, but they can be! :)
The reason why the French and people like Bill Green started cutting jeans like trousers in the 1950s, was because of the limitations of the traditional cut.
I have a pair of designer jeans purchased in the early 90s. They're cut like a pair of 1950s trousers, albeit with a yolk. That's when I stopped wearing 501s, they were just a superior fit and style. They're a little tired now, so I just wear them for DIY jobs, but if I ever desire to wear jeans again I'll clone them.
Quote from: Gerry on October 13, 2024, 08:34:09 PMHowever, I would consider repositioning the leg to avoid drag lines if that's an issue, though it would mean abandoning the selvedge idea. Though you'll need to sort out the fork first to make an evaluation, because its tightness is distorting the cloth a fair bit (difficult to know if some of those drag lines are from the fork or the wide leg spacing ... or both).
I have too much selvage denim on hand to abandon the selvage idea, unfortunately. I'm not opposed to a bit of diaper butt, haha, nor to a bit of drag. But do want the excessive drag to go.
That said, I extended the fork as you said previously and that seems to have sorted out most of the drag lines. will update with an image when possible.
Thanks for your help--and continued effort to help!
Quote from: Hendrick on October 13, 2024, 07:50:45 PM(https://i.postimg.cc/56m3XtTm/5p-flat.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/56m3XtTm)
Super helpful to visualize. Think I may need to add some more fullness to the CB seam, given these images. But I'd like your take when I update with the new draft
Quote from: Greger on October 14, 2024, 01:12:02 PMI personally would put in a western style front pockets.
The pocket style I prefer is a straight slant, nearly horizontal...gives a bit of western without being constume-y I think.
Quote from: TTailor on October 15, 2024, 01:20:31 AMQuoteDenim jeans are not drafted like trousers.
Was coming here to say the same thing.
The problem I have with a standard denim draft is that I get the excessive drag. I'll upload a pic of me wearing store bought denim to show. Hence the major scoop in the CB seam. The problem the scoop creates is an issue with makeup...the two back panels come together in an extreme point, with excessive angle down the first few inches of the back inseam
Quote from: Chanterelle on October 15, 2024, 01:55:41 AMQuote from: Greger on October 14, 2024, 01:12:02 PMI personally would put in a western style front pockets.
The pocket style I prefer is a straight slant, nearly horizontal...gives a bit of western without being constume-y I think.
These are usually referred to as "Sta-press" pockets. Patched front pockets with a diagonal opening as "engineers-pockets", 4-patch pocket jeans as "ship mates", front western style pockets as "revolver pockets", curved vertical pockets as "banana pockets", Levi style patched back pockets as "spade pockets". And actually, James Dean wore 505's instead of 501's; the construction is similar but they have a zipper fly instead of buttons and a narrower bottom leg...
Cheers, Hendrick
Don't forget Seafares!
Quote from: Hendrick on October 13, 2024, 07:50:45 PM(https://i.postimg.cc/56m3XtTm/5p-flat.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/56m3XtTm)
Do you have the draft system for selvage? Would you mind sharing?
(https://i.postimg.cc/V06K25t4/IMG-2949.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V06K25t4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JDR6cp4f/IMG-2950.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JDR6cp4f)
(https://i.postimg.cc/f3cq9GZ7/IMG-2951.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3cq9GZ7)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3y5bW8MJ/IMG-2952.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3y5bW8MJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bDL661Zs/IMG-5966.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDL661Zs)
Not sure but this looks to me manifestly worse than the original. Had to do some playing around with the pattern.
Since it's loom state denim, it will shrink quite a bit when washed, so I needed to raise the rise especially because it will shrink with the grain. hard to draft for shrinkage.
What I'm noticing is excess fabric down the front leg...I cut into the front curve to minimize, but now the overall crotch curve looks to me too short, hence drag lines.
Looking also like I need to scoop the back crotch curve more to eliminate the excess between the legs/seat.
input always welcome...just at a forever loss...can't get the fit I like with the style I want: a 'regular' straight fit, without too much taper, but avoids those pesky back drag lines.
Really you should have pre shrunk your cloth before cutting it. It's not too late. Leave it to soak in hot water, dry, press then reassemble. How can you make judgments regarding fit when you don't know how much it's going to shrink by?
A jeans pattern
https://web.archive.org/web/20130413014621/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2196&st=0&p=21477&hl=+jeans%20+making&fromsearch=1&#entry21477
And a pair cut from it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130512074416/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3219
Something about Trews
(https://web.archive.org/web/20130411105424im_/http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/Satorarepo/Album%202010/Trews_Thornton001.jpg)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20130411105425im_/http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/Satorarepo/Album%202010/Trews_Thornton002.jpg)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20130411105426im_/http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/Satorarepo/Album%202010/Trews_Thornton003.jpg)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20130411105427im_/http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/Satorarepo/Album%202010/Trews_Thornton004.jpg)
They are one piece. So most the side seam is straight.
Shape is pressed in.
From the Trews article:
To preserve the perpendicular position of the front centre stripe ... is one of the most important features of the cutting, and as large or prominent knee bones often force the stripe out of position ... cutters make it a rule to allow an inlay right through the leg seams on the top side.
This is what I was banging on about in the narrow-trousers thread a while ago. It's the first time I've seen it in print, though. Most tailors are unaware of this problem because they're averse to cutting narrow-leg trousers and never encounter it. The knobbly part of the inner knee displaces the mathematical centre of the knee (different from the actual centre of the joint), so if the leg is too snug in this area the centre creases are pulled inwards.
Getting things back on track: thoughts about the fit. They're not bad from the front, just a little baggy/full at the back. If you shrink the cloth as suggested, some of that may disappear. If not, then reduce some of the ease across the back and thighs. Don't be tempted to do all this by adjusting the fork widths though.
Thanks Gerry. Selvage isn't typically preshrunk, as the initial dye loss from soaking would impact the kind of 'patina' or characteristic denim fades that would come from wearing prior to the first wash. And to avoid awful crease marks, the shrinking will have to be done by laying the total three yard cut flat in warm water...can't use the machine for that without ruining the uniformity of the dye. My thought was to add ease all around, but especially vertically, to accommodate inevitable loss when washed.
That said, will be giving these a soak before the final cutting, as they are already cut and too big as is.
Suggestions on reducing ease? just tapering inseam and adjusting back crotch curve angle?
Quote from: Greger on October 27, 2024, 04:41:38 PMThey are one piece. So most the side seam is straight.
Shape is pressed in.
I will eventually be giving these a shot...but damn a 15.5" leg opening is SLIM
Am struck by how large the front crotch curve/fork width is though
Quote from: Greger on October 27, 2024, 08:26:30 AMA jeans pattern
https://web.archive.org/web/20130413014621/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2196&st=0&p=21477&hl=+jeans%20+making&fromsearch=1&#entry21477
And a pair cut from it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130512074416/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3219
Thanks. these don't have a outseam side seam, though, which is what I'm after given the need to preserve the selvage down the outseam. would be looking for one in the image your shared previously, if you can find it. Many thanks!
Quote from: Chanterelle on October 28, 2024, 12:00:25 AMThanks Gerry. Selvage isn't typically preshrunk, as the initial dye loss from soaking would impact the kind of 'patina' or characteristic denim fades that would come from wearing prior to the first wash. And to avoid awful crease marks, the shrinking will have to be done by laying the total three yard cut flat in warm water...can't use the machine for that without ruining the uniformity of the dye. My thought was to add ease all around, but especially vertically, to accommodate inevitable loss when washed.
That said, will be giving these a soak before the final cutting, as they are already cut and too big as is.
Suggestions on reducing ease? just tapering inseam and adjusting back crotch curve angle?
Please don't follow what industry does. They don't pre-shrink cloth because it costs money to do so. Sadly, the same can be said of the the bespoke world too (how many high-end shirting companies pre-shrink their cotton?).
I've soaked all manner of washable cloths and they come out looking as they went in. Only if cloth is cheap and not colourfast will there be any washing out of colour; and you're not bleaching the cloth, so you shouldn't get the unseemly streaks that you fear. Just lay everything in a
bath* to keep it straight and use
hot water. I have a thermostat on my boiler to regulate the temperature of the water that comes out of the tap. I set it for 60 degrees Celsius (140 F) and leave it to soak until the water is cool (or at least lukewarm). Unless the cloth contains man-made fibres, this high temperature won't damage it.
You can soak large lengths like this too. The only caveat being that where the cloth folds, it can remain dry if the cloth is densely woven. In which case, open it out and only fold it loosely (if need be). Lay the cloth as flat as possible. Even if scrunched or (loosely) folded a little, it shouldn't matter. Just press thoroughly once dry.
Once you've shrunk things, post again with pics and suggestions on fit will be forthcoming, I'm sure. It's a bit premature to do so, otherwise.
*I never use a machine, you're putting wear on the cloth plus dirt/grease from the drum (unless you wipe it after every single wash) can rub off onto the cloth.
PS don't get hung up on drafts. They're not the magical solution. You've come this far and are up and running, it's just a matter of fitting from now on.
couldn't appreciate the sage advice more! God I love this forum
Quote from: Greger on October 27, 2024, 08:26:30 AMA jeans pattern
https://web.archive.org/web/20130413014621/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2196&st=0&p=21477&hl=+jeans%20+making&fromsearch=1&#entry21477
And a pair cut from it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130512074416/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3219
Your selvage denim from that thread...did you use this draft? It does not have a straight side-seam
PS allow your cloth to dry naturally over a rack. Never put it in a tumble dryer.
Never made selvage jeans.
https://thebespoketailor.blogspot.com/ Shows a couple of trews. The pattern shown here, and there are other ones similar, could easily be used for selvage jeans, jack tars and other various similar trousers. They can be adapted for fall fronts, yoke, waistband, higher lower waist, no suspenders. they even give some clues for changing the bottoms. You could put some fancy bells on the bottom. In middle school back in the late sixties some boys ripped their 501s open from the hem to the knee and added large yellow/red triangles. When they walked it opened up and standing still the jean legs closed. This idea probably came from entertainment clothes of the 50s and 60s popular singers they saw on TV. Pay attention to the picture with inlays. If you make changes to the pattern make the changes on the cloth. Add inlay to the upper back so that you can slide it up or down to fit below the yoke. To include the selvage put the fold where you want the seam to be. To draw this pattern fold the paper lengthways and draw the top part. Cut that part and then refold it and draw the back side. This method is used on shirt backs, underwear, jack tars, jacket back yokes, etc.
Quote from: Greger on October 28, 2024, 04:07:34 PMIn middle school back in the late sixties some boys ripped their 501s open from the hem to the knee and added large yellow/red triangles. When they walked it opened up and standing still the jean legs closed. This idea probably came from entertainment clothes of the 50s and 60s popular singers they saw on TV.
Those inserts are called godets. I was a toddler at the time, so too young to remember them, but you see them all the time in photos of early Hippies/flower-power advocates. They were the cheaper option to buying a pair of (then) fashionable 'loon pants'.
I can't for the life of me find the link now, but there was a site that went into the history of 'spring bottom trousers'. I think it was the Mexican cavalry or army that first used godets in their trousers. It wasn't official, but because the lower legs collapse when not walking (as you mentioned), they could easily be tucked into their boots ... and brought out on display when on leave. It was just a fashion thing, though I doubt the hippies were aware of the connection (they'd probably have abandoned them had they known of their military roots!) :)
The cutter and tailor jeans draft always bothered me. I suspected it was just a trouser draft with jeans construction, though I'm sorry to say I never studied it to find out.
I will say, that the pair that appear on the second page do look great, they do also look like something that Deep Purple might have worn, more than 501s.
Any other opinions?
WARNING: some of these images may burn onto your retinas.
Photographic History of Flares (https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/gallery/2015/jan/24/the-history-of-flares-in-pictures#:~:text=American%20sailors%20were%20the%20first,easier%20to%20remove%20when%20wet.)
Quote from: Gerry on October 28, 2024, 10:52:47 PMWARNING: some of these images may burn onto your retinas.
Bay City Rollers :-[ :o
David Essex!!! :o
Cat Woman!!! :'(
Footballers, at the cutting edge???
Provisional IRA guys look very pecculiar
And the IRA guys weren't even wearing balaclavas ... I bet they were hard to find.
Twiggy looked good. Flares were OK until the '70s take on Oxford Bags. I had some. Those photos have been destroyed.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on October 28, 2024, 10:02:32 PMThe cutter and tailor jeans draft always bothered me. I suspected it was just a trouser draft with jeans construction, though I'm sorry to say I never studied it to find out.
I will say, that the pair that appear on the second page do look great, they do also look like something that Deep Purple might have worn, more than 501s.
Any other opinions?
I suspect the same. Since there was an image of a proper selvage denim draft posted earlier, I figured there was a draft floating around somewhere too.
Greger, I mistakenly assumed this was you!
(https://i.postimg.cc/1VPyF4tm/Screenshot-2024-10-28-at-9-17-24-AM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VPyF4tm)
This is the earliest book I know of that outlines the cut of Pantaloons, from 1822.
https://archive.org/details/rulesdirectionsf00jone
The sizes are ridiculously small and would only fit a child in our modern world. That aside, you can see where Levi's were coming from with the straight edge approach. It was nothing new and the utilitarian fit of these pants was good enough for the utilitarian work clothes the company was making at the time.
Nothing much differs from cut-to-cut with this design. The side seam is kept die-straight. A quarter of the waist is used at the waistline. A quarter of the seat is used at the crotch line (though the 1822 draft uses the waist measurement). Half the required knee is taken out at the knee position. Half the required hem is taken out at that line for the bottoms. The crotch line is extended and a curve drawn in. The only difference with the back pattern is that additional rise is created at the CB seam.
If drafting conventional trousers, some additional ease would be added to the seat and taken out from the side seam at seat level. Then the centre back line would be drawn in to connect the dots and a crotch curve drawn for the backs. In this early draft, however, a line is simply drawn from the waist at CB to the fork tip, which is almost identical to a 'modern' jeans cut. I say almost identical because the ratio of widths between the forks is 1:1 in the pantaloons draft. Whereas in a modern jeans draft, it's going to be roughly 1:2 from front to back. Though it would be nice to have that confirmed, anyone? (I no longer own any 501s, or similar jeans, to analyse).
I've seen one or two youtube vids by Nigerian tailors who still cut pants like this. Very old-school tailoring that has somehow continued in their neck of the woods. The majority of Nigerians now incorporate curves at their side seams, but even then many still cut with a side-in approach for the backs, if not the whole trouser.
I cut the back of my own trouser patterns along similar lines: the side seam is a facsimile of the front's (which has some curvature), and everything is drafted inwards from therein. I came to this method independently from our Nigerian brothers, though, through trial and error. It works well for a narrow-leg fit (relatively speaking, I don't wear drainpipes).
If you've done something similar to the above, then chasing the golden draft isn't going to help you. Work with what you've got IMO. The obvious downside to the selvedge edge approach is that any shaping/adjustment is mostly limited to the CB seam and inseams.
This site has a little bit about the history of flares and bells.
https://www.zevadenim.com/bell-bottom-jeans-the-iconic-70s-jean-style-and-heritage/?origin=serp_auto
In that book I linked to, I wonder if the "cutting men's clothes, by the square rule" tag means that the drafts are scaled down?? It would account for the tiny measurements ... which clearly aren't intended for a child because it's a men's cutting book (and although people were smaller two hundred years ago, they can't have been that short, surely?).
Incidentally, when I said this is the earliest Pantaloon draft I'm aware of, that's not true. It's the first that isn't partially cut like britches though, i.e. it has a totally straight side seam.
Quote from: Greger on October 29, 2024, 08:23:20 AMThis site has a little bit about the history of flares and bells.
https://www.zevadenim.com/bell-bottom-jeans-the-iconic-70s-jean-style-and-heritage/?origin=serp_auto
I always think of the balance between the top and bottom of a pair of trousers as being like a vase.
If the top of the vase is wider than its base, all the attention is drawn to the top.
If the bottom of the vase is wider, all of the attention is drawn to its base.
If the vase is straight-up-straight-down, we perceive it as a whole. Likewise if there's a pinch in the middle of the vase, resulting in an hour glass shape.
There's no right or wrong, it's a matter of choosing the right balance for the individual in question. To my mind, flares tend to look better on women because their hips tend to be wider, so balance is achieved. And they can make wide hips look smaller - there's nothing worse than wide-hipped people with tiny, peg bottoms because it draws attention to the hips.
If people have skinny hips then it's better to have the flare towards the bottom of the leg, no wider than the hips. That maintains balance.
Just my rule of thumb. And of course these guidelines are broken all the time, and the end result can still look good.
Quote from: Gerry on October 29, 2024, 02:28:07 AMThis is the earliest book I know of that outlines the cut of Pantaloons, from 1822.
https://archive.org/details/rulesdirectionsf00jone
The sizes are ridiculously small and would only fit a child in our modern world. That aside, you can see where Levi's were coming from with the straight edge approach. It was nothing new and the utilitarian fit of these pants was good enough for the utilitarian work clothes the company was making at the time.
Nothing much differs from cut-to-cut with this design. The side seam is kept die-straight. A quarter of the waist is used at the waistline. A quarter of the seat is used at the crotch line (though the 1822 draft uses the waist measurement). Half the required knee is taken out at the knee position. Half the required hem is taken out at that line for the bottoms. The crotch line is extended and a curve drawn in. The only difference with the back pattern is that additional rise is created at the CB seam.
If drafting conventional trousers, some additional ease would be added to the seat and taken out from the side seam at seat level. Then the centre back line would be drawn in to connect the dots and a crotch curve drawn for the backs. In this early draft, however, a line is simply drawn from the waist at CB to the fork tip, which is almost identical to a 'modern' jeans cut. I say almost identical because the ratio of widths between the forks is 1:1 in the pantaloons draft. Whereas in a modern jeans draft, it's going to be roughly 1:2 from front to back. Though it would be nice to have that confirmed, anyone? (I no longer own any 501s, or similar jeans, to analyse).
I've seen one or two youtube vids by Nigerian tailors who still cut pants like this. Very old-school tailoring that has somehow continued in their neck of the woods. The majority of Nigerians now incorporate curves at their side seams, but even then many still cut with a side-in approach for the backs, if not the whole trouser.
I cut the back of my own trouser patterns along similar lines: the side seam is a facsimile of the front's (which has some curvature), and everything is drafted inwards from therein. I came to this method independently from our Nigerian brothers, though, through trial and error. It works well for a narrow-leg fit (relatively speaking, I don't wear drainpipes).
If you've done something similar to the above, then chasing the golden draft isn't going to help you. Work with what you've got IMO. The obvious downside to the selvedge edge approach is that any shaping/adjustment is mostly limited to the CB seam and inseams.
I basically like Gregers"approach; work on a single system and learn to manipulate it to perfection; I swear, that's how I built some of the best women's cuts from a mens'draft... And that's just pants; note how Edward Sexton managed to build his womens'cuts from this knowledge and developping womens' fits for the likes of Stella Mccartney. Remember that drafts are just algoritms plotted on a grid but the fabric has to go around a warm body in the end. As for golden rules, there's a single one in the back of my head that I use to verify when patterning, the front diameter of a trouser= 1/16th hip -/- 3/16", the back diameter 2/16th hip + 3/16", it almost never misses. (must be old, imperial approach). The early jeans patterns you refer to were quite rudimental and saving on fabric consumption prevailed over look and fit; it is part of the charm of old dungarees. The position of the inleg seam, therefor depended more on economics then aestetics. The pattern technique of old breeches is similar to the old, horizontal front shoulder part folded to the back. This time a straight line, from outer kneepoint to outer hip point is extended upward and folded toward the front to form a narrower front part. So actually, the side seam tilts forwards hip to waist. Note that "ironwork", which I know nothing about actually, was different at the time as were fabrics. Forming garments was done sometimes inversely on a ham, covered with a wet cloth and pressed dry to form, protected by a linnen cloth; try that with todays'fabrics...
Cheerio, Hendrick
It's funny that you mention Edward Sexton, Hendrick. I was thinking of him when posting about flares. IIR, he spent some time in Paris working at a couturier's, which is probably why he was amazing at cutting women's wear.
I think it's in the third part of this documentary where you see some of his designs for women. Annoyingly, you have to scroll down and click on the 'MPEG4' menu to see the other episodes (all of which can be downloaded, incidentally):
https://archive.org/details/BBCSavileRowDocumentaryPart1LoveThyNeighbour
Right at the end, you see a suit he made for former super-model Marie Helvin. She looks absolutely fantastic in it. The suit has quite flared trousers, but she's quite broad in the hips so the balance is just right.
A talented cutter, sadly missed.
55:36 mark onwards (keep watching to see the whole ensemble):
Savile Row Doc Part 3 (https://ia903206.us.archive.org/25/items/BBCSavileRowDocumentaryPart1LoveThyNeighbour/BBC%20Savile%20Row%20documentary%20-%20Part%203%20-%20%20Foreign%20Affairs.mp4)
The flares and bells also went with the wide lapels of the 1970s. And back when I think Mark Twain was a live. Except, his days, some coats were shorter than the 1970s.
If I remember correctly shoulder width was also considered in the balance. The combination included above the waist when designing. I was taught the overall look in the sixties. Grandad understood proportions. He explained rules to people. But I think had his own methods. Because broader and narrower shoulders, thick thin chest,long shorter back, etc. even pressing shape into the garments changes dimensions.
About cloth. Levi probably ordered certain widths. Just wide enough to do the job. I was told thread is expensive. Cloth wider than necessary leaves costly waste. Pattern pieces as close as possible to prevent paying for more lenght.
Hendrick, one way of drawing on paper is laying out certain points- structure. Styles, fashions, whatever are drawn on the cloth.
The old shuttle looms produced narrow width denim at about 32" wide only. Most denim fabrics were not singed ("hairy") and not sanforised. The jeans were often called "shrinkers" and sellers often advised buyers to take a bath in them... The popularity of flares caused mills to massively invest in wider projectile looms often made by Sulzer from Switzerland and Italy became the biggest denim weaving country in Europe with Legler as the largest plant (we used to call italian jeans "spaghetti denim"). It also marked the demise of beautiful american mills like Westpoint Pepperell, Dan River and Riegel. I believe only Cone Mills still exists today. All said, I still believe american ringspun cotton is the best and not just for denim; there's only one Hanes teeshirt, Russel Athletic sweatshirt and more...
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: Gerry on October 29, 2024, 10:23:54 AMIt's funny that you mention Edward Sexton, Hendrick. I was thinking of him when posting about flares. IIR, he spent some time in Paris working at a couturier's, which is probably why he was amazing at cutting women's wear.
I think it's in the third part of this documentary where you see some of his designs for women. Annoyingly, you have to scroll down and click on the 'MPEG4' menu to see the other episodes (all of which can be downloaded, incidentally):
https://archive.org/details/BBCSavileRowDocumentaryPart1LoveThyNeighbour
Right at the end, you see a suit he made for former super-model Marie Helvin. She looks absolutely fantastic in it. The suit has quite flared trousers, but she's quite broad in the hips so the balance is just right.
A talented cutter, sadly missed.
Quote from: Gerry on October 29, 2024, 10:23:54 AMIt's funny that you mention Edward Sexton, Hendrick. I was thinking of him when posting about flares. IIR, he spent some time in Paris working at a couturier's, which is probably why he was amazing at cutting women's wear.
I think it's in the third part of this documentary where you see some of his designs for women. Annoyingly, you have to scroll down and click on the 'MPEG4' menu to see the other episodes (all of which can be downloaded, incidentally):
https://archive.org/details/BBCSavileRowDocumentaryPart1LoveThyNeighbour
Right at the end, you see a suit he made for former super-model Marie Helvin. She looks absolutely fantastic in it. The suit has quite flared trousers, but she's quite broad in the hips so the balance is just right.
A talented cutter, sadly missed.
Sexton was the reason why I changed my mind from "never going into the garment business". I sort of knew what he was doing and who he was dressing but it was a video clip with Lulu that convinced me, I suppose. There was an attractive androginous touch to it, albeit a little "louche"... Anything may be pushed further accourse but it always stayed with me. Here's a few things I did well over twenty years ago, one based on an aviators jacket, the other I don't know but Gregers'remark comes to mind. Master a method and keep improving it until it goes without thinking...
Cheerio, Hendrick
(https://i.postimg.cc/ft63Nzrz/K1L1001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ft63Nzrz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V59czZxm/K1L0917.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V59czZxm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/S24b9H3S/K1-L1107b.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S24b9H3S)
Quote from: Hendrick on October 30, 2024, 08:13:01 AMand sellers often advised buyers to take a bath in them...
I remember that from my childhood. I was too young to do that sort of thing but I remember think how funny it sounded.
Quote from: Gerry on October 29, 2024, 09:03:12 AMIn that book I linked to, I wonder if the "cutting men's clothes, by the square rule" tag means that the drafts are scaled down?? It would account for the tiny measurements ...
Gerry the scale is defined at the end of the book:
"The drafts which are found in this work are drawn from a scale of four inches to an inch; or in other words, one quarter of an inch is called an inch."
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on October 30, 2024, 09:45:43 AMGerry the scale is defined at the end of the book:
"The drafts which are found in this work are drawn from a scale of four inches to an inch; or in other words, one quarter of an inch is called an inch."
Thank you Schneiderfrei, I didn't see that. I still don't understand though. I think the scale given only applies to the diagrams? (they're drawn quarter scale?). If we multiply the actual measurements in the example by 4, we go from one extreme to the other: they were all giants! :P
The waist to ankle measurement given totals 22 inches. Using head units as a rough guide, that would make them about three feet high.
What am I missing folks? My guess is that this person's tape-measure was extremely crap.
Or because of a lack of calibrated tape-measures, people's estimates of length weren't accurate?
https://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/393308/georgian-silver-filigree-tape-measure-circa-1820
Edit: No, they had calibrated measures:
https://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/502882/a-georgian-mother-of-pearl-tape-measure
Quote from: Gerry on October 30, 2024, 10:25:00 AMWhat am I missing folks? My guess is that this person's tape-measure was extremely crap.
The idea is you practice the drafts in miniature to get a feel for the process and then apply the principles to your real life measurements.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on October 30, 2024, 02:09:04 PMThe idea is you practice the drafts in miniature to get a feel for the process and then apply the principles to your real life measurements.
Ah, that makes sense Schneiderfrei, I thought I was going nuts. Too used to 'modern' (Edwardian) drafts! ;D
Edit: I think another reason it was done is because (as you point out) the diagrams are quarter scale, to ensure that they look properly proportioned. Therefore the intended size of the book's pages dictated the max measurements that could be used. Also, it's clear from those links I found, that their tape measures were quite short. So if they were practicing the system, there was only so much they could cope with.
All very confusing to the modern eye. I guess that pre-internet, people had to think for themselves and figured this one out no problem! :)
I had a roof leaking and took the opportunity (or rather the necessity!) this week to do some (...) cleaning up and going through boxes of old stuf... One of the finds; no less the 3 of the dreaded 1/4 scale rules that we used at college. These are in a white acethate or plastic that works like a dirt magnet for pencil lead; after a month these look like you poked the chimney with them. Any of remember these?
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: Hendrick on October 13, 2024, 07:50:45 PMHi all,
I spent a few years consulting for jeans co's. Denim jeans are not drafted like trousers. The pattern of, say a Levis's 501, is drafted with the side seams as straight as possible and cut with the sides following the selvedge of the fabric. Denim was, originally, woven on narrow looms so economics were important. I effect, the only shaping in an original jean is in the yoke (or riser) and the front pocket. No serging was done on the outseam, only the part holding the pocket lining ($). As yo can see in the image, the midback of the pant is extremely tilted and straight; this gives the 501 its famous "diaper"effect. At the same time, being cut nearly bias, it ad ads more flex to the pant than a hollow fork. I know this is a little extreme but to me 5pockets pants with a trouser cut always look a little unusual. A while ago I posted something about the foldline in trousers, I believe Gerry did also... Here you can see that the foldline is completely disregarded.
Cheers, Henndrick
(https://i.postimg.cc/56m3XtTm/5p-flat.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/56m3XtTm)
Would you mind sharing the system you used when consulting? Other than a straight side seam, how were jeans drafted...i.e. what system are you using that drafts outward from the sideseam, keeping this straight?
There is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: Hendrick on February 09, 2025, 05:59:16 AMThere is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.
Cheers, Hendrick
I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 09, 2025, 06:18:11 AMQuote from: Hendrick on February 09, 2025, 05:59:16 AMThere is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.
Cheers, Hendrick
I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
Why not try to find a vintage pair of denims, try them on and rip them open for tracing? You can always work toward a personalised pattern...
I don't like wearing "jeans fit" jeans; wear them "pants fit" with a belt or braces.
I used to buy vintage 501 and 505 by the dozen, ripped the waisbands of and reduced them 1,25" and re-assembled them.
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 09, 2025, 06:18:11 AMI appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
A ruler-straight centre back seam isn't going to flatter anyone, frankly; nor one with the slightest curve at its base, for that matter. Which is why so many people have saggy backsides to their jeans. The reason why many manufacturers have stuck with the old style of cut is because of ease of manufacture. It's much simpler to sew a double-lapped CB seam if it has little or no curvature. People forget that these cutting systems were for utilitarian wear, not for looking fashionable.
The rock and roll generation, who popularised jeans, sat in a bath full of water with their jeans on, in order to shrink them and get a better fit over the seat and thighs. Nowadays cloth is pre-shrunk so that doesn't work (not unless you buy those specially resurrected Levis 501s where the cloth isn't pre-shrunk). Hence all the ill-fitting jeans nowadays. So you have to ask yourself, have jeans ever looked good on you? If not, then you'll probably never have much success with them. Stick to trouser drafts and forget the selvedge look (my eyes tend to roll when I hear the word).
As for drafting selvedge jeans, start with the side seam. Simply draw a straight line, which becomes your reference for the circumference measurements. Modern bespoke makers tend to curve the side seam from the seat position to the high-hip/waist-seam; though the curvature is very subtle. This prevents the jeans from slipping off the hips of someone. You can see that reflected in Hendrick's diagrams. The quarter waist measurement is still taken from the side seam though. It's just a little displaced.
As for a yoke, just imagine pivoting normal trouser darts by 90 degrees, around each apex. The pivoted darts are incorporated into the seamline of the yoke. Plenty of vids on youtube demonstrate how to pivot darts. I wouldn't draft things like that, incidentally, but it will help to get clear in your mind the basic concept, especially if you practice with a scrap of paper.
Edit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid. Anyone know who I'm talking about? (and could you post a link?). And I didn't mean Paul Kruize, but simply got his nationality wrong; this guy is definitely German (he has a moustache IIR).
Quote from: Gerry on February 09, 2025, 07:12:33 AMQuote from: Chanterelle on February 09, 2025, 06:18:11 AMI appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
A ruler-straight centre back seam isn't going to flatter anyone, frankly; nor one with the slightest curve at its base, for that matter. Which is why so many people have saggy backsides to their jeans. The reason why many manufacturers have stuck with the old style of cut is because of ease of manufacture. It's much simpler to sew a double-lapped CB seam if it has little or no curvature. People forget that these cutting systems were for utilitarian wear, not for looking fashionable.
The rock and roll generation, who popularised jeans, sat in a bath full of water with their jeans on, in order to shrink them and get a better fit over the seat and thighs. Nowadays cloth is pre-shrunk so that doesn't work (not unless you buy those specially resurrected Levis 501s where the cloth isn't pre-shrunk). Hence all the ill-fitting jeans nowadays. So you have to ask yourself, have jeans ever looked good on you? If not, then you'll probably never have much success with them. Stick to trouser drafts and forget the selvedge look (my eyes tend to roll when I hear the word).
As for drafting selvedge jeans, start with the side seam. Simply draw a straight line, which becomes your reference for the circumference measurements. Modern bespoke makers tend to curve the side seam from the seat position to the high-hip/waist-seam; though the curvature is very subtle. This prevents the jeans from slipping off the hips of someone. You can see that reflected in Hendrick's diagrams. The quarter waist measurement is still taken from the side seam though. It's just a little displaced.
As for a yoke, just imagine pivoting normal trouser darts by 90 degrees, around each apex. The pivoted darts are incorporated into the seamline of the yoke. Plenty of vids on youtube demonstrate how to pivot darts. I wouldn't draft things like that, incidentally, but it will help to get clear in your mind the basic concept, especially if you practice with a scrap of paper.
Edit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid. Anyone know who I'm talking about? (and could you post a link?). And I didn't mean Paul Kruize, but simply got his nationality wrong; this guy is definitely German (he has a moustache IIR).
I have seen his videos and appreciate him, though I cannot find them now...when i need it
Quote from: Hendrick on February 09, 2025, 06:27:32 AMWhy not try to find a vintage pair of denims, try them on and rip them open for tracing? You can always work toward a personalised pattern...
A home-sewer I once saw on youtube had a pretty clever idea. She deliberately bought an oversize pair of jeans from a charity/thrift/goodwill store and carefully cut out the seams with her shears. This rendered her a toile (large seams included) which she used for the fitting/patterning process.
Quote from: Gerry on February 09, 2025, 07:12:33 AMEdit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid.
I'm pretty sure it was this chap. If so, he's removed his drafting and making content (understandable given the competition these days):
Nevertheless, if you pause things here and there, you'll get a good idea of the shaping required. I note that there's a little more of a curve to the CB than in many jeans drafts; so you'll probably have better luck following his example, Chanterelle.
in Rundschau Book "HAKA SChnittkonstruktionen Hosen" you have a basic pants with a straight sideseam. Then you have a mexican style, a pants in used look, Gaucho pants and Jeans in Enginered Look - all with straight side seams - but with a better fitting seat curve. And the hem is wide - 52 cm.
lg
posaune
When I look at guys today I see a lot of flat seats because of the lack of physical activities. Before video games and other sitting times younger guys were very active. The jeans of the sixties through perhaps nineties were made for active body types. But, they only sorta fit. The last twenty years has been skinny legs. If you have big calf muscles, then what?
Plus, you have the wrong perspective, because you are thinking mass production instead of custom. A real tailor is going to look at a pattern system and know it is not going to fit. How can a system fit all the different body shapes? Not going to happen. This is why tailors do bast fitting with inlays. Take for example the back yoke. Are you going to cut straight lines or curved lines? Which way are you going to curve them? Is the part below that is sewn to the yoke going to be curved? The shape of the seat to crotch depends on what's needed. What kind of underwear? The old tailors would cut according to which leg the danglers are going to fall in. With modern underwear, not so much. You are not cutting for women here, nor mass production. So you don't think like that. A tailor won't put in front pants pockets like mass production either. They put in better pockets. The jeans back pants pockets would most likely be lined with pants pocketing. They last longer. The front and back fork most likely connect behind the scrotum to keep them separated. There are newer methods to move that forward. The fork can go up or down. Different body shapes have different requirements. Some tailors lengthen the front or back from knee to fork. This has to do with more movements of the leg. Some tailors think in parts. Blending them together so as a whole the garment looks splendid and fits very well.
So here is the latest toile using the trews pattern linked earlier in the thread. I had avoided this pattern because it just looked wrong for my body. Given the largeness of my seat--from the side it protrudes quite a bit, which means I need a longer fork I think--I couldn't construct the draft so the front and back center seam ended at the same level. I think this is an improvement, but anticipate having to lengthen the back fork once again...
(https://i.postimg.cc/CzQ9X99B/IMG-6821.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CzQ9X99B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G4T6Cq1M/IMG-6822.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G4T6Cq1M)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zLnMLvvK/IMG-6823.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLnMLvvK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtfSMyJp/IMG-6824.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtfSMyJp)
Quote from: posaune on February 10, 2025, 04:47:27 AMin Rundschau Book "HAKA SChnittkonstruktionen Hosen" you have a basic pants with a straight sideseam. Then you have a mexican style, a pants in used look, Gaucho pants and Jeans in Enginered Look - all with straight side seams - but with a better fitting seat curve. And the hem is wide - 52 cm.
lg
posaune
Thank you! That is quite the expensive book. Do you have scans of the appropriate drafts? That would be incredible
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 17, 2025, 10:50:14 PMDo you have scans of the appropriate drafts? That would be incredible
Sadly it is still under copyright. We don't usually post recent publications for that reason.
It is in German and it is full of a wide range of drafting possibilities.
I always found it worth scanning, OCR-ing and reproducing drafts, despite starting with hardly any German language.
Quote from: Gerry on October 29, 2024, 09:03:12 AMIn that book I linked to, I wonder if the "cutting men's clothes, by the square rule" tag means that the drafts are scaled down?? It would account for the tiny measurements ... which clearly aren't intended for a child because it's a men's cutting book (and although people were smaller two hundred years ago, they can't have been that short, surely?).
It looks like there is a "table of proportions" near the back of the book which would be used to adjust the pattern for size without changing the shape.
DeVere's 1866 system has the same idea using "graduated measures". Basically if you want a larger size pattern, you use a larger size ruler (which DeVere, conveniently enough, sold :) ) to lay it out.
Also, some of the numbers are probably "half measures" - i.e. my 42 chest measure becomes a 21 "breast" because that is what you apply to the cloth.
Looking at the photos just posted
Yes you have a prominent seat. And your pattern does not have enough width to accommodate the seat, and not enough length to go over the seat either.
Take a girth measurement from cf waistband, between your legs to the back waistband.
I'm assuming that you have verified your hip measurement.
Have you measured your finished pattern to check for enough size at the hip level?
Measure across the front horizontally at the hip level,(less the seam allowance), and on the back, from the corresponding point on the side seam measure on an angle parallel to the waistline. You need hip total plus ease of 2.5 to 3.5 cm.
You need more size, mostly in the back.
Front
You can add some width to the front of the pattern parallel to the side seam. Say 1/4 inch to 3/8 inch. Check the front fork point position on the pattern, it should increase proportionally with an increase in hip size. Not sure what your draft says.
The increase size at the waist can be adjusted in a fitting. It might be fine because the body is more convex in the front waist
Back
If you are using a straight side seam draft, you will add width parallel to the old CB run.
To to this you can cut the existing pattern vertically from the waist to the knee level, and slide the pattern over the amount you need.
This will add fabric at the waist(you take out a second dart to make the waist fit), and add thigh circumference.
The next step is to adjust the back inseam blending back to the original knee width, and check the back inseam length, to be the same as the front.
Correct the run of the crotch seam by laying the front inseam to the back matching the sewn lines.
Check the girth measurement of the pattern to your measurement.
Is there enough?
If not, then the question is do you need to add to the fork or is the length needed by slashing and spreading a wedge at the hip level, essentially angling the CB more than it is already.
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 17, 2025, 10:45:01 PMSo here is the latest toile using the trews pattern linked earlier in the thread. I had avoided this pattern because it just looked wrong for my body. Given the largeness of my seat--from the side it protrudes quite a bit, which means I need a longer fork I think--I couldn't construct the draft so the front and back center seam ended at the same level. I think this is an improvement, but anticipate having to lengthen the back fork once again...
There's general tightness around the seat/hips and the crotch width is inadequate. You definitely need more width to the back fork and more ease across the seat. Possibly there's a little too much rise in the front, too, which is helping to create those diagonal pleats towards the crotch. I would expect some creases there, due to the legs being more closed than the cut of the trousers, but those pleats are quite heavy.
Hopefully you've left plenty of inlay for adjustments. If not, then make sure you leave inlay on all seams of your next toile.
The whole point of a trews draft, as I understand it, is to have a dominant stripe of the tartan run straight up and down the front crease line. That's not what the fabric naturally wants to do, so shape has to be worked in with iron. And you can't really do that with a cotton toile.
I know you want to end up with a straight side seam for the selvage material. But maybe it would be better to fit a pair of conventional trousers first?
Which trews pattern are you using? I went back and there are a couple of them.
Can you post a picture of the pattern you made and indicate where you had those issues? I dont quite understand this
QuoteI couldn't construct the draft so the front and back center seam ended at the same level.
PS, before sewing together your toile, it's always a good idea to iron the creases in the fronts (at the very least). They help diagnose various problems with the leg/forks if they don't run nicely over the knee. Visible balance lines are always a good idea too.
Quote from: jruley on February 18, 2025, 02:03:00 AMThe whole point of a trews draft, as I understand it, is to have a dominant stripe of the tartan run straight up and down the front crease line. That's not what the fabric naturally wants to do, so shape has to be worked in with iron. And you can't really do that with a cotton toile.
I know you want to end up with a straight side seam for the selvage material. But maybe it would be better to fit a pair of conventional trousers first?
Perhaps not particularly relevant to the thread, but I can't resist sharing these military cut trews without side seam (https://thebespoketailor.blogspot.com/2014/09/military-cut-trews-without-side-seam.html)...
It is obvious that you have somewhat of a belly. Not much but it is there. You belly is pulling the cloth for the seat towards the belly. So to say, the belly is stealing some of the seat cloth. It is probably also pulling the fork up, which makes the under seat not pleasant. Directions are always an estimate. One direction is an inch up at center front and 3/4 inch out. This will stop pulling the seat part forward and the crotch up. The exact amount varies from person to person.
About inlays. The fork can be extended out half to one inch. And run it down to at least the knees. The seat seam at the top is usually 1 1/2 inches wide and runs down to the tip of the fork about a quarter to half inch above that. another inlay that is useful is a half inch down the back part of the leg on the outseam. Some tailors add half to one inch above the waist seam. This gives tailors room to maneuver the cloth to fit. Patterns are merely an educated guess. The more you do the less guessing because you read the body and draw accordingly. Inlays are extremely import for beginners. Old very experienced tailors always add inlays. They don't mess around. Recutting is wasted time and cloth, which both equals lost money. If you make the side inlay, towards the top, wide enough, you can use it for the pocket facing.
Quote from: Dunc on February 18, 2025, 04:36:42 AMPerhaps not particularly relevant to the thread, but I can't resist sharing these military cut trews without side seam (https://thebespoketailor.blogspot.com/2014/09/military-cut-trews-without-side-seam.html)...
That's actually highly relevant because it shows how much the shape depended on ironwork. Imagine how those trews would have looked if they were made out of denim...
ok here is the latest, gave up on the trews pattern because after making the suggested alterations the fit got remarkably worse. Here I've adapted a pattern from a pair of carharts, basically borrowing the seat curve.
Because the inseam on denim is flat felled in one go (from leg to leg), the angles at the front and back forks need to be very close to 90 degrees, thus limiting shaping of the back crotch curve...still possible but made harder...
Am waiting for advice before I start pinning/altering the toile...plenty of extra fabric where needed, i.e. back crotch curve and inside back leg.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vg8vjT19/IMG-6941.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vg8vjT19)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NycD6pBd/IMG-6942.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NycD6pBd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hJ1rpTGc/IMG-6943.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hJ1rpTGc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G4YzTZwB/IMG-6944.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G4YzTZwB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SJHDsm5F/IMG-6945.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SJHDsm5F)
At the back you have a lot of tightness across the high hip and seat (all those stress marks), plus 'hungry bum' (crotch width too narrow).
It seems like you're having the same problems no matter what the draft. Are you using an accurate measurement for your seat? And does your drafting system use this measurement in any way?
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 26, 2025, 02:54:51 AMHere I've adapted a pattern from a pair of carharts, basically borrowing the seat curve.
How well do the Carharts fit? Can you show pictures? You can't expect a copy to fit better than they do.
Are you trying for a snug fit, a good looking fit, or a comfortable fit? They might not be the same.
Quote from: Gerry on February 26, 2025, 04:09:25 AMAre you using an accurate measurement for your seat? And does your drafting system use this measurement in any way?
Yes and I don't know. Either way, I am measuring my hip loosely and then the pattern to make sure there is enough ease. I must be incompetent.
My rear protrudes outwards, comparatively narrow waist, and I have relatively straight hips...hard to get the pattern to accommodate all that. Will undo the stitches and try again
Quote from: jruley on February 26, 2025, 04:17:06 AMQuote from: Chanterelle on February 26, 2025, 02:54:51 AMHere I've adapted a pattern from a pair of carharts, basically borrowing the seat curve.
How well do the Carharts fit? Can you show pictures? You can't expect a copy to fit better than they do.
Are you trying for a snug fit, a good looking fit, or a comfortable fit? They might not be the same.
They fit great before I started working out more, gaining muscle, and eating more, gaining fat. figured the crotch curve at least might be helpful...
Going for fit above all else, something like this fit from Drake's lookbook
(https://i.postimg.cc/v4ptvMw7/Transitional-SS25-Layout-DOC-Cutdown16-1080x.webp) (https://postimg.cc/v4ptvMw7)
Since I don't have access to a drafting system that utilizes a straight side seam (the trews linked earlier in the thread do not work for my body...), I'm kind of just winging it at this point.
At a loss...maybe bottoms are just beyond my abilities and I need to stick to shirts...but as you might guess, off the rack pants don't fit me well at all, hence why I am bent on making them myself.
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 26, 2025, 05:06:55 AMSince I don't have access to a drafting system that utilizes a straight side seam (the trews linked earlier in the thread do not work for my body...), I'm kind of just winging it at this point.
Well - a trouser draft with a straight side seam isn't going to produce a good fit. Not unless you do a heroic amount of ironwork, which you can't do with denim. It's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
I would suggest trying a more conventional trouser draft at first, and seeing if the professionals here can help you figure out your figure peculiarities. You might be able to adapt it to a straight side seam later. But that will probably always be at the expense of fit.
Quote from: Chanterelle on February 26, 2025, 05:01:44 AMI am measuring my hip loosely and then the pattern to make sure there is enough ease. I must be incompetent.
Apologies if you're already aware of this, but just to make sure we're on the same page, on the back you can't just use a net measurement (even if 'loose') at the seat line, as with the front. An additional one to two inches width is required on the back pattern. Which will give you between two to four inches of ease across the whole seat.
How much is required varies from individual to individual, or for the type of fit you want. For my personal draft, for example, I use 1.5 inches of extra width. This gives me 3 inches of ease across the whole seat at the back.
And don't give yourself a hard time over this. Accurately taking one's measurements is tough enough; fitting oneself it's even tougher.
Study the Mansie draft here:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,56.msg215.html#msg215
Compare the waist and seat measures to what is actually laid out on the waist and seat lines. That will give you an idea of the usual amounts for ease (and seams, 1cm per seam).
Notice the side seams are not straight.