Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Hello Cutters and Tailors,

After losing everything in a flood two years ago, I recently took on the task of trying to construct some trousers for myself. Twelve toiles on, it has turned out to be a lot more difficult than I ever imagined!

This began with a series of videos on Youtube (Caffeinated Tailor). I drew a pattern, made a toile, and sewed a pair from wool. Although amazed they even went on my body, the wild drape on the outer leg at the hip, britches style, was not my thing at all.

I then drafted from the Metric Pattern Cutting book and had issues with the back being too tight across the seat, as well as the trousers being too baggy in the back leg.

After reading a bit here, I decided to invest in the Müller Trouser book and Müller Menswear book.

My issue seems to be the fit. I simply can't get this right. I have now drafted and made toiles from the Basic Block Skinny-Fit Trousers (pg 28, Trouser book) and Basic Block: Trousers without dart (pg 35, Menswear book). I am about to embark on yet another pattern draft and toile: Basic Block: Slim Trousers without darts (pg 9, Trouser book).

I could keep going on making toiles and not knowing how to fit them, or I can ask the experts here! I was trained as an Illustrator in the 80's so I really enjoy the drafting. The Müller method suits my brain and I'm happy to stick with it if possible.

Here are the photos of my last effort, the Skinny-Fit Trousers. I have been dressing in a so-called 60's Mod style for the last decade or so and prefer tighter trousers to baggy. Maybe I am getting too old for this type of thing?! Open to suggestions.

I am grateful to have found you here and eager to learn. I have been pulling long days the past two months and I'm rather desperate. I won't cut more wool until the toile fits.

Thank you in advance for your time.

-Stephen

Edit: Just to mention something... The Skinny Trouser Draft said in the text to move the centre crease line 2cm to the left (outer seam), but on the illustration the seam has not been moved. I am unsure why the crease was moved. It alters the pattern including the back trouser draft. I have emailed Müller but they are on vacation. Other trouser drafts did not have this 2cm shift... strange


(https://i.postimg.cc/G93fm2fR/IMG-7398.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G93fm2fR)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3dVf1Zxr/IMG-7399.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3dVf1Zxr)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HrMZh7rw/IMG-7400.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HrMZh7rw)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hff3VYg3/IMG-7401.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hff3VYg3)

this 2 cm are done to center the back pants at crotch level. See attached Pic.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QBG4ZNs/trouserm-ller.png) (https://postimg.cc/5QBG4ZNs)

your trouser is not balanced - as far as I can see. The front hip line goes down, the back is a bit wide and the front tight and is pushed down. You must change the measurements a bit. More to front less to back. side seams are falling nicely
lg
posaune

Thank you for your reply. I only have 1 cm seam allowance on the front trouser; 3.5 cm seam allowance on the back, so adding to the front might mean a new draft and muslin. That is ok as I can do this in a day.

The book says, "Divide the total front width by two, measure 2 cm to the left and square up and down for the front crease line". However, when you look at the accompanying illustration, they have not moved the crease line on the front trouser. I am wondering if this is throwing me off? I do see a shift to the crease on the back which you mentioned. This is on the front though and I have not encountered it on other pattern drafts.

In the meantime I am thinking perhaps this is the wrong block to try. I found I had very little ease onto the waistband; about 5 mm. The book suggested a fabric with stretch.

Like you mentioned, the trouser photos I posted look too tight (across the front). Tonight I was trying a different block, the Slim Trouser without Darts. Would it be worthwhile to try this or go back to my other pattern and make the fronts wider? And what to do about that 2 cm shift of the crease to the outer leg on the front?

One other thing is I have checked the rise on some trousers I own, and they all seem to be about 20 cm. On the photos I posted they are 22 cm rise. There is constrained movement in the forks. I wondered if the crotch is too low? Or is it the fronts are not wide enough?

Thanks


(https://i.postimg.cc/wR6nK5ty/IMG-7217.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wR6nK5ty)

you are right - I have not seen this in any Mueller draft. Maybe a wrong translation? The shift in Back is done for construction only. In your draft it is 1 to 1.5 cm - normally it is about 2 cm. It means not much fabric under the tush, ergo tight between the legs - near to the skin. The grain line stays. And yes if you press the trouser later the crease line (I hope that is the right word, As you dress with the iron you will get a crease line which run over center knee up center  of your cheeks and ends near the back center waist. Maybe it is your posture or you have a belly - you just need more width in the front and less in the back. For testing just insert some fabric there. You can add at ftrw and subtract at btrw in the pattern. But this is for later. Open the front and pin in a triangle (and make the CF straight) Then you see too if crotch is to low or not, because the trouser can go up now. As the sideseams are straight - I do not think that it is more then that.
lg posaune
lg
posaune

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 06, 2024, 03:54:22 AM.

The book says, "Divide the total front width by two, measure 2 cm to the left and square up and down for the front crease line". However, when you look at the accompanying illustration, they have not moved the crease line on the front trouser.

I don't have any experience with the Müller system(s), but I do have experience of drafting narrow-leg trousers. If the knee circumference is snug - and I don't necessarily mean tight (though that will cause this problem too) - then the crease line is pulled towards the inseam and is seemingly off-centre. This is due to the asymmetry of the knee joint. The knobbly bit of bone on the inside of the joint means that its 'true centre' is not the middle of the knee cap (which is where we want the crease to run).

Briefly check your knee and you'll see that this is the case. And it doesn't take much to cause this problem. You can seemingly have a comfortable amount of movement at the knee, but if things are even a little snug the creases will be out. Likewise if the upper inseam is too scooped on the fronts and/or if the thighs are snug. There's more meat on the inside of the thighs than on the outside, so similar asymmetry results.

This is possibly the reason why the crease line has been shifted over in your draft instructions, to compensate for the above. It's certainly one way of dealing with the problem (though not ideal).

Another solution is to create more ease/circumference at the knee, thereby allowing the crease to drift back to its intended position and allowing the leg to hang more naturally (rather than being pulled inwards). However, in doing this we lose the narrow look we're after. Supposedly.

One thing I tried on my most recent draft is to mark extra ease at the inseam of the back knee only. I then came down the inseam some seven inches and, keeping things as straight as possible, gently curved from that point, through the ease mark, then up to the fork tip on the back. This trick worked beautifully. It kept the illusion of a narrow/tight leg, because the fronts remained untouched, but all along the back - and more importantly at the knee - there's more ease. No more off-centre crease-lines.

The curving has to be just right though. If it's too pronounced, then drape can get trapped on the inside leg at the knee. Not that noticeable unless you're looking for it, but not very attractive when it is drawn to one's attention.

I won't be able to make a pair of trousers from this new draft until the Autumn, but I am pleased with the toile. Of course, Müller may have some totally different reason for doing the crease displacement, but what I outlined is worth being aware of. Especially if, like me, you favour more narrow-legged trousers - We are the Mods, We are the Mods, We are, We are, We are the Mods!  :P

PS, stick with your draft. Learn to fit because you're always going to have issues with your drafts, no matter what method you use.

posaune, thanks for your advice. Just so I have this correct, you want me to open the fly (zip) and pin a triangle of fabric there? Essentially seeing what a more vertical centre front would do to the fit. Is this correct, or am I to open up each leg crease line and fit triangles in there?

Gerry, to be honest, I was a scruffy punk listening to the Stranglers. Sometime in the 2000's I decided to smarten myself up.  ;D  My Mum liked the change. I've never been one for flares, nor wearing your waisband below your crotch line! I appreciate what you said about the knee being snug.

I have just about drafted that other Slim Fit Müller trouser. Been up all night (again). Shops open soon so I will get another half mile of fabric to play with. But perhaps you are right, I probably need to stick with this draft as there will always be issues. I was kind of hoping this would be paint by numbers, but there is clearly a definite art to it.

The Stranglers were a great band. Although I became one of those post-Quadrophenia mods, I still loved a lot of the late 70s/early 80s New Wave bands. The look I'm into now is more proto-mod, i.e. late 50s/very early 60s. There's some really interesting men's wear from that period. Less camp/fab-and-groovy and more classic, but with a nod towards what was to come.

Narrow pant legs can have problems with calf muscles. Calf muscles vary in size from person to person.
What Gerry says about narrow look but, plenty of room is very good advice. I do think the narrow look is going out of style and fashion. In good wool cloth good inlays to use for being relevant as times change.
Because you have somewhat of a belly, not much, but it is there, a bit of room to fit. Changing the front of the pattern by adding there will help. To do this add a bit out and up. The waist line might best be curved some.
Some of the books posted here explain patterns, changes and fitting. None of them are the same. None of them have all the answers.

"Thank you for your reply. I only have 1 cm seam allowance on the front trouser; 3.5 cm seam allowance on the back, so adding to the front might mean a new draft and muslin. That is ok as I can do this in a day."

Or just sew on a bit extra.

Which draft are you using? Can you give any details? Eg is it the one that is posted here:

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,86

One thing that's commonly done with low-rise trousers, is to undercut the belly slightly. Bring the rise down by about half an inch at the CF. This helps to prevent material being pushed down at the front due to any prominence of the belly - not necessarily fat, but roundness (which often occurs with age). It creates a more severe angling from back to front, but looks better from the front.

Interesting Gerry. The moving of the crease line does not make any changing in fit in my opinion. I reposit the leg if the legs (thighs, knees, feets) are very tight together or spread wide. I cut the crotch line horizontal and move the underpart in or out - depending.
so the crease line moves in or out - but taking the fabric along. The calfes are taken care off with widening the side seam  1 cm on both sides under back knee level. And only back pants. You have to dress the sideseam of the back pants to get the right length for the front side seam.

lg
posaune (who is sewing men clothes only for her husband)

What Gerry said about lowering the front waist band is fine unless you gain some more weight there. For me fighting the bulge is not easy. Lost about 20 pounds because of open heart surgery. About six years ago, later close to 10 pounds is back. I'd rather have a higher waistband than the belly spilling over the waistband.
What Posaune says about the crease line I believe is fine. When you put the outseam and inseam together the crease line is easy to press in its new location.

Well, I'm pretty sure the pattern directions don't change the crease line only:
 In this early stadium of drafting you just determin the point from wich to square the center line (crease line). Therefore everything that follows this step is shifted towards the side seam. Most prominently the knee and hem line. So the effect of the 2cm shift is a lower leg shifted towards the side. Also of the underside, wich is evolved from the front.(So it has an affect on the fit, like Posaune's alteration she mentioned in her last post)
Trouser Snake, did you remeasure the Mueller sketch? Maybe they shifted the point but it's just not obvious

Quote from: posaune on August 06, 2024, 05:15:37 PMInteresting Gerry. The moving of the crease line does not make any changing in fit in my opinion. I reposit the leg if the legs (thighs, knees, feets) are very tight together or spread wide. I cut the crotch line horizontal and move the underpart in or out - depending.
so the crease line moves in or out - but taking the fabric along. The calfes are taken care off with widening the side seam  1 cm on both sides under back knee level. And only back pants. You have to dress the sideseam of the back pants to get the right length for the front side seam.

lg
posaune (who is sewing men clothes only for her husband)

It's an aesthetic thing, Posaune. All of my early trousers had this problem, but I was unaware of it because they were all casual in style, so I didn't bother pressing creases into the legs. It was only when I started on more dressier trousers that I began to notice that things were off. And it looks dreadful when one is aware of it.

If there's any snugness at the knee, then changing the leg position does absolutely nothing. The leg won't hang as intended and the centre creases are always pulled inwards. More ease is required at the knee to truly solve the problem, in particular along the inseam, because that's where there's more bulk. Hence the (successful) experiment/fix that I mentioned above.

Repositioning and pressing the creases more towards the side-seam is a common 'solution', but a really poor one IMO.

Thank you everybody for your responses. To answer some questions:

The trouser draft is from the Müller book, Pattern Making Mens Trousers, pg 28, Basic Block Skinny-Fit Trousers. I will post the pages for study purposes if that is ok?

In regard to the crease line and that 2cm relocation to the left. A week ago I was curious about this so drafted two versions for comparison. I have photographed these patterns from above and then traced the outlines from the photographs.

There is a definite difference to me in the front panels. Not so much in the back. Here are the photographs and drawings...

(https://i.postimg.cc/5YFT8zpH/IMG-7420.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5YFT8zpH)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rzx7mSK3/IMG-7421.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rzx7mSK3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WhVCJhZ3/IMG-7422.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhVCJhZ3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/w1Tr0Z0Y/IMG-7423.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1Tr0Z0Y)

(https://i.postimg.cc/64rPmNkt/IMG-7424.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64rPmNkt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hQWwsG32/IMG-7425.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hQWwsG32)

(https://i.postimg.cc/F7xqbNbx/IMG-7426.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7xqbNbx)

....and here are the pages with the discrepancy. I have emailed the publisher about this. They have been pretty good replying to other questions I had, so they should get back to me in the next day or so. They are on vacation. My German is slightly better than my bespoke tailoring skills. :D

Looking at their illustration, and measuring it, they have not moved that front crease line.

The images are from the email I sent them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2LktMtrW/IMG-7216.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LktMtrW)

(https://i.postimg.cc/s1sbMM72/IMG-7217.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/s1sbMM72)

Ok, it's nothing to do with what I was banging on about (though if anyone ever encounters that problem, everything I wrote still holds).

I'm pretty sure the 2cm shift is a compensation to ensure correct leg position. Many drafting systems simply divide the full width at the crotch line (fork tip to side seam) in two, and use that point to drop a perpendicular for the crease line/leg position. This wrongly assumes that the fork tips are snug against the inner thigh at crotch height. In reality, the tips of the forks are pulled into the gap between the legs in order to bridge it. So the true mid point is a little further along to the side seam. Hence the compensation (I'm assuming).

They don't seem to have followed their instructions on the diagram. Probably an oversight. They may have recycled an old draft, but forgot to amend the artwork.

Gerry, you might be right. It could be that the illustration is incorrect; as you say, an old draft.

I was going to try a several things...

I will alter the toile I posted originally.

I have drafted a 'Basic Block - Slim Trousers without Darts' from pg 9 of the same trouser book. Will cut and sew up a toile and see how this compares.

I could also construct a toile of the 'Skinny Fit Trouser' without the 2 cm crease line shift.

I shall post my findings over the coming days.

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 07, 2024, 07:59:53 AMI could also construct a toile of the 'Skinny Fit Trouser' without the 2 cm crease line shift.

That would make no sense at all, for the reason I gave: it's almost certainly a compensation to give correct leg placement. I used to do something similar myself, but now take a measurement, which can be done in one of two ways.

First method: drop the edge of a tape measure down the centre of one leg so that it runs over the middle of the kneecap. Either eyeball the position of the measure's edge at the crotchline, or mark it with chalk/a pin. Now measure from that point to the fly-line. That's your ideal crease-line position from the fly-line on your draft - fork widths are always estimated so, when you think about it, it makes no sense to position the crease line relative to the fork tip.

Second method: measure between the centres of the kneecaps, halve the distance and use that from the fly-line. Just make sure not to bend the knees when doing this, or you'll skew the measurement. Better still, get someone else to do the measuring.

NB Both methods assume a straight leg and standard/straight-leg position.

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 07, 2024, 05:52:59 AMThank you everybody for your responses. To answer some questions:

The trouser draft is from the Müller book, Pattern Making Mens Trousers, pg 28, Basic Block Skinny-Fit Trousers. I will post the pages for study purposes if that is ok?

Depends on what year it is. If it's from the 60s 50s or before I think we all post such things. We tend not to post large chunks of stuff from 2000 on for copyright reasons.

I have the same book in german. ....printed 2012
After drafting to the right the knee height line, inseam  line and sidelength line... and so on ...you draw the horizontal hip line in (1/10 of 1/2 hip+ 3) up from inseam line. On the hip line you draft the Fronttrouserwidth = 1/4 hip-1 cm to the right. And angle up to Siede seam line and down till Inseam line. Now you add to the right the front trouser crotch width = 1/10 of Hip/2 + 1 cm. You have a total frontwidth of Ftw + Ftcw. You part now the total Frontwidth in half and angle up and down. This is the center front line from which you measure to the right and left 1/4 leg width -1cm and 1/4 knee width -1 cm (this is another typo in your book).
lg
posaune

I searched again in the book in the noon. If you go to the basic jeans pattern I found the 2 cm. you divide the total Ftw like this: to the left 1/2 Ftw-2 and to the right 1/2Ftw +2. You draft this "center"line and from here at kneelevel to the left 1/4 Kneewidth-0.5 cm to the right 1/4 Kneewidth -0.5 cm. The skinny fit jeans is done after the skinny fit basic pattern.
lg Posaune

Thank you posaune. I appreciate your time checking this. I did see that the jean pattern has the shift of 2 cm.

I have just heard back from Müller:

Quote"There is a mistake in the text.The sentence should read as follows:

Divide the total front width by two and square up and down for the front crease line.
The centre should not be shifted by 2.0 cm.

Sorry for the mistake. We will take note of the correction."

I have just completed a toile for the slim fit trouser. I used the exact measurements in the Müller example as they were very close to my own. The result is, I am not fond of the bagginess in the leg so I will not go further with this.

What I will do now is draft another 'skinny fit' pattern (without the 2 cm shifted crease line). Looking at my original photos I posted and taking into account the comments here about the fronts being small, I shall leave ample seam allowances on the fronts to allow for alterations.

Thank you all for your input,

Stephen

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 08, 2024, 06:34:01 AMWhat I will do now is draft another 'skinny fit' pattern (without the 2 cm shifted crease line).

I'd advise you to take a measurement (see above) before redrafting. You may find that the 2 cm shift is more inline with your actual leg position, for the reason I mentioned above. At the risk of sounding like one of those nut-job street preachers, "the majority of drafts have this wrong!".

Drafts often use estimates where exact measurements (or at least more accurate estimates) can be used; and to determine leg position relative to an estimate (fork width) just doesn't make sense. Conventional wisdom sometimes isn't that wise IMO.

Thank you Gerry, for your "morphologic wisdom"... In my opinion most trouser drafts are too curved at the sideseams and I never managed a clean fit without shifting the leg, from under the crotchline outward. For me, this depends on the drape of the trouser. I fully agree that the position of the creaseline has less to do with the crotch diameter than with the hip-circumference. This is different for womens' trousers... In smaller sizes, womens'knees "meet",or nearly, whereas there upper thighs dont. The bigger the size, the less that will be the case. We call it the "open crotch effect"...

Cheers, Hendrick

Gerry, if I understand this correctly, I am hanging a one meter steel ruler from above my waistband so the middle goes right through the centre of my knee bone. My legs are straight, feet almost touching. I am marking off the line at the top near the waistband and measuring to the fly/zipper. I am getting about 8 cm.

I am looking at my drafts I did of the crease line 2 cm to the left, and the other pattern where it was not shifted. The pattern without the 2 cm shift to the outer leg is 8 cm from the fly; the shifted one is 10 cm. I might try redraft this time without the crease line shift.

I think with the pair I originally posted,the rise was too much at 22 cm. In the book they have their example at 19 cm. I might take 2 cm off. I think the waist at 90 cm and seat at 100 cm is about right. I find the legs always need to be hemmed a little shorter. Should I shorten the legs in the draft? I am using Andrew Ramroop's measuring video as a guide. I have a rise of 77 cm (perhaps 78 cm?) and side length of 99 cm. Any additional advice with the measuring?

Oh, one other question. This 'skinny fit' pattern has frog mouth pockets. Is there any reason that would be the case? Would slanted pockets create gaping with a tighter fitting trouser?

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 08, 2024, 09:38:50 AMGerry, if I understand this correctly, I am hanging a one meter steel ruler from above my waistband so the middle goes right through the centre of my knee bone. My legs are straight, feet almost touching. I am marking off the line at the top near the waistband and measuring to the fly/zipper. I am getting about 8 cm.

I meant a tape measure, but if you're measuring yourself then yes, a rule is going to be easier. The caveat being that you might inadvertently angle the rule and, ideally, we want it to be perpendicular to the floor. At least with a measure gravity ensures a vertical drop (albeit with a gentle pull between the hands to straighten it).

The measurement isn't taken at the waistband. The legs join the trunk at the crotch line so that's where you need to pin/mark. Make sure the rule/measure runs over the centre of the kneecap. Once things are marked at the top of the leg, measure across from there with a tape to the fly line (again, at crotch level).

In your photos, your feet aren't 'almost touching'. You have a fairly regular/straight leg posture, not closed, so you need to stand how you normally do to take the measurement. If you're unsure about your leg position, stand as normal and take a measurement from the centres of the kneecaps then halve it. Compare that with the measure at the crotchline. If there's not much in it, you're straight postured.

Quote from: Trouser SnakeI am looking at my drafts I did of the crease line 2 cm to the left, and the other pattern where it was not shifted. The pattern without the 2 cm shift to the outer leg is 8 cm from the fly; the shifted one is 10 cm. I might try redraft this time without the crease line shift.

You need to remeasure correctly before making this judgement.

Earlier, you posted a draft without the 2cm shift. Notice how the side seam is more curved. That shaping is immutable and may not be that flattering/what you want. I agree with Hendrick, it's a little too curved for my tastes (yours may differ though - if you try a toile it's all experience).

Quote from: Trouser SnakeI think with the pair I originally posted, the rise was too much at 22 cm. In the book they have their example at 19 cm. I might take 2 cm off. I think the waist at 90 cm and seat at 100 cm is about right.

In your photos the rise at the front looks a little high, but you seem to have secured the waist really tightly to keep the trousers up, which is possibly why things look a little cramped below the waist. Sewing on a provisional waistband will help you better evaluate the fit. It can simply be pinned closed.

Quote from: Trouser SnakeI find the legs always need to be hemmed a little shorter. Should I shorten the legs in the draft? I am using Andrew Ramroop's measuring video as a guide. I have a rise of 77 cm (perhaps 78 cm?) and side length of 99 cm. Any additional advice with the measuring?

Keep things simple, leave the full length. Simply fold up the hems in a fitting/when evaluating a toile. I always do my drafts referenced to the floor and leave them that way. With an early draft I once made the mistake of shortening the legs to my chosen hem height. It threw out all my vertical measurements so any adjustments thereafter were confusing and I inadvertently ended up with a dropped crotch. Not by much, but enough to feel uncomfortable when walking.

Although they look a little tired, I still wear those trousers (just for daily stuff), but I have to hitch them up and wear a belt quite tight in order not to feel like I'm waddling. With regular trousers, such an error wouldn't have been a big deal. However, with narrow leg it makes a difference. Similar principle as a high armscye, if the crotch is dropped then it restricts movement and the trousers have a tendency to be pulled down as one walks. With a more voluminous cut there's enough material/ease to compensate for any such drop and the legs can take strides without restriction.

Quote from: Trouser SnakeOh, one other question. This 'skinny fit' pattern has frog mouth pockets. Is there any reason that would be the case? Would slanted pockets create gaping with a tighter fitting trouser?

Frog mouth were/are a common choice with tighter fit stuff. They don't gape, but the flip side is they're not that practical (you can barely get your hand in them, let alone anything else). As to whether slanted pockets will gape, it depends on so many things: angle/positioning/mouth-width/star-sign/phase-of-the-moon (at least it can seem like it). If you have trousers in your wardrobe that don't have this problem, use them as a guide.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I have drafted and cut the paper pattern without the crease line shift. I can see what you and Hendrick mean about that side seam now. I think I would prefer to keep that curve straighter. This incidentally was the problem with my first attempt from 'Caffeinated Tailor' Youtube videos... that wild britches look on the sides.

I have about 4 meters of 180 cm wide calico here and a few cheap zips. I will cut and stich up this draft I just did and see if I can learn something from it. I have changed the inseam height. I remeasured and think it was too low. I'll probably end up drafting another with a shifted crease and thus straighter side length.

The past few years I have been wearing 'staprest' from Jump the Gun or wool trousers from Adam of London, so I am very familiar with frog mouth pockets. I do like making the slanted ones though.

I'll post some pictures when I get these made up. Again, I appreciate the education. Thanks!

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 08, 2024, 03:56:09 PMI can see what you and Hendrick mean about that side seam now. I think I would prefer to keep that curve straighter. This incidentally was the problem with my first attempt from 'Caffeinated Tailor' Youtube videos... that wild britches look on the sides.

The main thing is to get the leg position right, then worry about the side seam. It's possible to straighten things out even with a more closed position; but, at the risk of sounding sexist, I find that conventional shaping can look a little feminine: even if one manages to avoid the jodhpurs look, the curves can resemble women's pants ... and most men have fairly straight sides. 

Just to stress, my comments in this thread mostly relate to a narrow-leg cut where different rules apply. Rules that many tailors aren't aware of because they refuse to make trousers that skinny.

Quote from: Trouser SnakeThe past few years I have been wearing 'staprest' from Jump the Gun or wool trousers from Adam of London, so I am very familiar with frog mouth pockets. I do like making the slanted ones though.

Try a single, slanted pocket on one side of your next toile and decide for yourself if any gaping is acceptable.

Berwick Street has a couple of good cloth shops along it, so I'm familiar with Adam of London (there's a branch on the same street). Pretty good quality from what I can tell (I've never bought anything from them), but I did that look when I was a teenager. Nice to look at though (brings back memories).

I just checked out the Jump the Gun website. The name didn't ring a bell, but I remember having a look through their window the last time I was in Brighton. I love the Harry Palmer raincoat. I'm going to have to make one of those at some point. Some nice Loake shoes too (not that I need another pair!).

Gerry, I would have stuck with the 'mod shops' had their quality not gone down the crapper. But where does one go at age 58 from mod 'cosplay'?  :D  A: Bespoke

I have pulled apart an old pair of Adam of London trousers. Here are some photos comparing my current draft with the pulled apart trousers. The crease lines are aligned. I can see some similarities. Their outside leg curve on the back is straighter as it reaches the waistband. Dart is in a different location. Also different angle to the centre back seam. It is as if they have shaved a little wedge off this and glued it to the outside leg thus straightening the outer curve at the top. Also, wider front crotch; narrower back crotch.

See what you think...


(https://i.postimg.cc/kRsVMBZC/IMG-7454.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kRsVMBZC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/K42JYwVp/IMG-7455.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K42JYwVp)

In general, the Adam trousers seem to have a tiny amount more ease, which is no bad thing. The fly is slightly angled, which is commonly done when trousers don't have pleats. It pushes the sides seam a little further out, which helps to prevent excessive curving over the hips. If the front is anything to go by, the leg is a little more parallel/stovepipe in shape than your own draft. It's a look that I favour.

If the trousers fitted you well, then there's no shame in copying the cut. Just be sure to leave inlay, so that you can amend any minor fitting issues that perhaps you weren't happy with. On the other hand, if there were issues with the cut that annoyed you, then keep up the drafting/toiles.

Thanks for the analysis. With the Adam trousers, do you have any comments regarding the straightend top of the back trouser side seam, in comparison to the front? To me it appears that by adding a cm to the outside leg at the top to straighten that curve, they have taken a bit off the centre back seam, which would round the bum a bit?

I guess it wouldn't hurt basing a pattern on that Adam pair, and making a toile. It might give me some experience and something to think about with my own pattern. I do want to learn to draft my own though. I was trained as an Illustrator and have a technical style. I really enjoy the drafting process.

I am an avid wearer of slim line slacks, but they should permit a button fly... What this trouser (not the pattern) appears to do is give room where needed; to the front crotch and leg, allowing you to sit down without pulling the back of your trouser down.Further, it exploits the part bias on the center back of the trouser (like in jeans), so less diameter in the back but natural stretch from the tilted fabric. Lastly if you plot hip position top down on the side back part you see that it drops below the construction line of your pattern, making for a cleaner sideseam. Agreed with Gerry about the volume of the lower leg; no matter how narrow, you still want fall and drape for a mens'trouser...

Cheers, Hendrick

Was going to post this earlier...

Hey Hendrick, that's cool. Just one button on the jacket? Interesting. I must confess I like three myself! My favourite era is the sixties, before the flower power thing. Some nice sharp suits back then. Maybe one day I'll be able to make one... Thanks

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 09, 2024, 07:10:13 AMWith the Adam trousers, do you have any comments regarding the straightend top of the back trouser side seam, in comparison to the front? To me it appears that by adding a cm to the outside leg at the top to straighten that curve, they have taken a bit off the centre back seam, which would round the bum a bit?

In ready-to-wear, garments are finalised on models or mannequins, so patterns end up as whatever looked right during the fitting process. It's possible that Adam simply copied some vintage trousers and graded them, but the original manufacturer would have gone through that process, no doubt. There's no one way to draft trousers. All cutters have their idiosyncrasies and a lot of shaping is done by intuition - 'rock of eye' based on years of experience. In short, I don't know.  :)

To be honest, I haven't cut trousers the tradition way in a long time, so I don't even remember a lot of the 'rules'. I no longer take the back side seam out at an angle. Instead it's an exact facsimile of the front's side seam. I create a rise line to angle the waist up to the CB (which keeps things towards the bias over the seat), then take a side-in approach for the rest of the draft (the fronts are constructed in the conventional way). It's a combination of old and new. In Regency times, 'pantaloons' were cut from the side inwards, though often the side seams were literally straight lines, much like classic/selvedge-seam jeans today. I prefer a little shaping and more accurate leg placement, but I favour the straighter cut that results from this alternative approach.

The real advantage is that ease is distributed over the seat and inner thighs, where it's needed, rather than accumulating at the sides, where it tends to catch on the hips. The drape is more on the inseam, which not only hangs more naturally, due the inverted V shape of the legs (nothing to catch on), but it's also less noticeable: we tend to recognise shape by the external lines - which is why we talk of shapely hips/thighs/waists; and also why we speak of silhouette  - the internal stuff is secondary detail (nobody ever said, "Phwoar, nice inside leg!").

I have made some progress. Using the trousers I pulled apart as a reference, I drafted a pattern using the method I have learnt in the Müller book.

In the book, the back trouser is drafted from the front trouser. There are a couple of 'flexible' measurements in the construction of the back. One is the distance up from the front trouser hip line, used to plot the angle of the diagonal line upon which the centre back seam is established. The book mentions between 2 to 3 cm above the hip. I found to make a pattern which was close to my pulled apart trousers, 5 mm was used (drawn in red in my diagram).

The other flexible measurement is the amount you shift the point to the right of the crease line. The point from which the half of the total back trouser width is measured to either side (drawn in blue on my diagram). From these measurements the back trouser crotch width is plotted. The book suggests between 1 and 1.5 cm. My measurement was 0.5 cm. It seemed to match my trousers.

There is only one other flexible measurement. This is the purple line on my diagram. The left purple measurement is plotted to the right with 1 to 1.5cm added. This determines the length/height of the centre back seam.

After drafting the pattern I discovered a few things didn't match. When I ironed the pieces of trouser to interfacing, things must have got a little twisted. I think this has caused some miscalculations on my part. Although the outer legs feel a lot better to wear, there is some excess fabric in that centre back seam. I hope this can be seen from the photographs.

The question I have is how to correct this? I believe the problem is in that centre back seam. Maybe the angle is wrong? Is the whole top section of the trouser leaning too far to the outside? If I raised the starting point of the red line up to 2 to 3 cm, it will change the centre back angle. It would also mean the outer leg line in the back would have to be brought in towards the centre back, thus keeping the waist measurement correct.

If anyone has a suggestion or comment, I'd appreciate it. I am not sure which way to tilt the upper back or that centre back crease line to reduce the excess drape in the centre back. Overall though, I think this is the closest I have got to a trouser which fits.

Thanks.


(https://i.postimg.cc/N9jfYd2n/IMG-7463.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9jfYd2n)

(https://i.postimg.cc/f3ZRqzzD/IMG-7466.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3ZRqzzD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hhwPWbDC/IMG-7481.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhwPWbDC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/5YK9t8w2/IMG-7482.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5YK9t8w2)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XXX7zDbG/IMG-7483.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXX7zDbG)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fJ9WwtkM/IMG-7556.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJ9WwtkM)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9DPW76GS/IMG-7558.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9DPW76GS)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HcNHmdgJ/IMG-7559.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HcNHmdgJ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/pmBHTDvM/IMG-7560.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmBHTDvM)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CdZSNBGb/IMG-7563.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CdZSNBGb)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G4RRdXZj/IMG-7609.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G4RRdXZj)

well, I think the back pants needs to come up (The hip line is sagging down) and then you need a bigger tip of the inseam (the pants gets dragged into the rear). The crotch diameter is too small. Measure it.
lg
posaune

Thanks for replying.

The crotch diameter? Do you mean the back trouser crotch width? This is the Total Crotch Width (1/4 Hip Girth - 4 cm; which is 25 cm - 4 cm = 21 cm) minus the Front Trouser Crotch Width (1/10 of half the Hip Girth + 2 cm; which is 5 cm + 2 cm = 7 cm).... which means it is 14 cm. Is this what you meand by diameter, or is it something else. Sorry for the lack of knowledge.

Also, how do you mean the hip line is sagging down? The hip line on the back is drafted from the front like in the Müller books. If it is sagging, where have I gone wrong please? [see picture of Müller method]

(https://i.postimg.cc/HrBDSJ6D/IMG-7684.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HrBDSJ6D)

Thank you Posaune!

They're starting to shape up.

The waistband, in profile, looks a little odd. The front is being pushed down by your slight tummy, which gives it a kinked look.

As I mentioned earlier, you could probably do with undercutting the belly a little by bringing the height of the fronts down at the CF and reshaping things. Some adjustment at the side seams will probably be necessary too, in order to get a smooth, slightly tilted look to your waistband in profile. Chalk a nice line that looks right from front to back, while you're wearing the trousers, and use that as your seam line with the waistband. Don't cut away cloth, think of it as inlay (you might need it again if the adjustment doesn't look right).

As for the back, I think what posaune was saying is that there's a little too much length. As thinks stand, it looks like cloth is being pushed down below the waistband. That excess needs 'picking up' into the waistband. Again, don't cut away cloth you may need again later. Try pinning some of that excess out to see if matters improve, and to give you some idea as to where the new waistline seam will be.

Have you ever been in a real tailors shop? Not a store. Not a made to measure. A real tailors shop. Some of these tailors are looking over every detail of your body. They watch how you place your feet. They see what happens when you turn, bend over, movements of sitting, does the hem move up, and whatever else they can think of. If you are paying attention some you might wonder if they are gay (few are).Trousers that have no pressure points are extremely nice.
First things first. Fit. Not style, fashion or anything like that. When the fit is completed style, fashions, etc. are added.
The belly is contorting the fit. The seat seam is hollowed out too much. The slant of back is probably to much. The center back rise is high. The back darts are improper size for seat shape. Seat and hip width circumference- what if you have a larger seat and narrower hip width? Or,the other way around? How are you going to adjust the pattern for these?
Every person's body is different. This is why patterns don't work without some thoughts of correction. It is better to have generous inlays than cutting a new one, new one, new one.... Some tailors fit loose, so they can pin towards fit. Some chalk the amount they think the seam needs to move. Since they are basted, instead of sewn, some will rip out some basting and pin. Or, any combination that gets the job done.
Patterns supposedly get us into the ballpark. Since there are many figure shapes the patterns don't include (unless specialized pattern, that need changes to), tailors use methods of adapting. All the patterns you have shown have not included any adaption for the belly.
Book writers to find some answers. Poulin, Stone, some more American, Tailor and Cutter  (British) the German companies certainly have patterns that will fit you better. After fit style and fashions are easily added with a few adaptations.

Thanks Greger. No I have not been to a real tailors shop. I am fairly new to this world, but eager to learn. It may have been naivety on my part but I was hoping if I followed the recipe closely, I'd end up with something which fits. It looks like it isn't as easy as that.

I bought the Müller trouser book to assist me in my quest, but I am missing some essential knowledge and experience. This is going to take me some time to figure out. Although as an artist, I have a very precise clean style; no amount of applying this to a pair of trousers will work if I cannot master fitting.

Today I tried on my recent toile. I rolled the waistband over on itself, shortening the rise. It took up a lot of that loose fabric in the back. I have a 38 mm wide piece of elastic I can join and slip over the trousers as a guide to chalking a waistband. To be honest, I would rather start again and get the draft closer to this elusive perfect fit, than have to pin and unpick and rebaste etc. Or is this all part of the job?

I intend to stick with this. I am not going to give up on it. I will do some experiments on the waist of the current toile today. Again, I do appreciate the help you are all offering. It is most generous of you.

So I continue with this toile, or do I start over again?

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 14, 2024, 10:43:40 AMTo be honest, I would rather start again and get the draft closer to this elusive perfect fit, than have to pin and unpick and rebaste etc. Or is this all part of the job?

Greger is spot on. No draft is ever going to get you 100% close to your ideal fit. A pattern is always finalised through fittings. And that's no different for ready-to-wear: they use models and mannequins across the size range to check that their garment looks OK for most people. Drafts may seem very scientific, but in reality the methods are often based on estimates. Estimates designed to get a tailor up and running as quickly as possible so that they can get on with the real art of tailoring: fitting.

You'll only waste time and card in thinking that you can achieve all this through drafting alone. Leave inlay, fit to your body, correct your pattern based on observations and empirical testing (alterations). Don't be put off, you don't need to learn it all; not if you're only making stuff for yourself. You just need to figure out what changes are necessary to get a good fit for your body. If you do decide to take things further, then yes, studying the books is a must.

Thanks Gerry. Yes, it is apparent that there is no secret recipe to this. I have massive respect to the tailors who do this every day and have mastered this art! And Greger, I downloaded a Poulin book and see what you are saying about patterns and fitting.

Today I read back through what you were saying about the waist band earlier. I made a big rubber band from elastic and slipped it over my trousers whilst wearing them. I drew  a line a couple of times on the toile and came up with a similar result each time.

I removed the waist band, drew the stitching line neater, and basted it back on with small stitches. At the front I have removed 2 cm following the previous stitching line subtle curve. At the side seams the line goes upward as it gets to the centre back where it is 1 cm lower than previously. Perhaps I need to remove more at the back, which might suggest then that my rise was over estimated to begin with. I did leave 2 cm inlay on the side seams front and back originally. I have cut nothing off the waistband in this recent alteration.

I still have the excess fabric in the centre back seam which I need to fix. Here are photos so far.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NyYk5NJh/IMG-7770.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NyYk5NJh)

(https://i.postimg.cc/njhK1Xf0/IMG-7771.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/njhK1Xf0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ygpmp7VB/IMG-7772.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ygpmp7VB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1VgpLbtF/IMG-7773.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VgpLbtF)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wtVcJhZ1/IMG-7775.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wtVcJhZ1)

It's certainly better, but there's still room for improvement.

The waistband still needs to look a little straighter, only on a slight tilt. As is, it dips down slightly once past the side seams. Slip the band down a tiny bit lower at the sides/top of the hips.

A small amount of cloth needs to be picked up into the waistband at the back. It's still being pushed down a little. Particularly on the right side. It could be that you need to compromise a little on the right side (don't expect patterns to turn out symmetrical).

Your darts are a little too far to the sides for my liking. The don't have to be very long with low rise trousers (in fact you want them short), but it does help if they point to the fullest part of the seat (yours are to the sides of that area).

I'm sure others will chip in with further observations, but those are a few things to be getting on with.

Gerry, it's starting to get really messy. I feel like I've been going around in circles the past 100 days. I have pulled off the waist band again and unpicked the darts. I guess I can move them a centimeter towards the middle. That would be a start. I'll drop the seam where the waist band meets the trouser side seam by a centimeter, and maybe drop the waist band seam at the back 5 mm. I'll see what that does.

These trousers have me worried. It's like a car which looks ok at a glance, but underneath the paint job, has a load of body filler and welded bits. I am thinking about starting again with yet another Müller draft....

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 14, 2024, 06:28:29 PMI have pulled off the waist band again and unpicked the darts. I guess I can move them a centimeter towards the middle. That would be a start.

Typically, darts are about midway between the side seam and CB. They can be placed more towards the side seam - especially with low rise, because the darts are more about helping the cloth to curve round the seat rather than shaping the small of the back too - but not excessively. Personally, I'd keep them short and reign them in a little, more towards the CB (certainly more than a cm).

Quote from: Trouser Snake linkI'll drop the seam where the waist band meets the trouser side seam by a centimeter

Pinch out the cloth while wearing them so that the vertical length is pulled up a little. Either gauge how much you pinched, or pin it and measure. That will give you an idea of how much to lower the rise at the back of your pattern. Again, it could be that each side of your body requires a different amount. Some asymmetry is common in most people.

Quote from: Trouser Snake linkThese trousers have me worried. It's like a car which looks ok at a glance, but underneath the paint job, has a load of body filler and welded bits. I am thinking about starting again with yet another Müller draft....

Don't start another draft, you'll only face the same problems. To reiterate what has already been said, there is no one magic draft to fit everyone. You are always going to have to adapt a draft to the peculiarities of your body, based on observations and adjustments made during fittings.

You're already getting there, things are improving, don't abandon ship. It may turn out that, once you're finished, you don't like the style and then decide to try a higher-rise draft with more leg room. But if you stick with this project and get the fit right, you'll not only have learnt loads, but that knowledge can be taken forward, resulting in a quicker resolution of the problems that will inevitably occur on your next project.

Don't start a new one, you are pretty near. Fitting a right pair of pants US one of the most challeging tasks, especially when fitting youself.
The things I see:
Front:
There is a bit of bulging width at the crotch.
To relax I would elongate the waistline about 1cm at the zip and fade in the zip line to the existing curve. To keep the front waistline the same length, take some mm at the side seam and ease the rest in when sewing the waistband, (The waistline should always be a bit longer than the waistband for a better hold up)
Back:
There is a bulging length under the butt.
Mark a Point on the inseam about 7cm below the crotch tip. Draw a line from this point to the point where the hip line crosses the outseam. Slash the line keeping a small hinge at the outseam. Overlap the slash 2cm at the inseam. This operation takes some length from under the butt and makes the underside less slanted, it also shortens the back inseam, you have to stretch it with the iron. (For the toile: Open the inseam from knee upwards, sew a dart like above, stretch the back inseam and resew it).

Thanks for your help Peterle. I will make some changes to this toile. I understand the back alteration, but I am not entirely sure what you mean with the front. My trouser currently has no waistband on it and the darts have been unpicked. I will continue for the learning experience but I must confess, it sounds like open heart surgery.

Your center front line is quite slanted at the moment. The top of the zip pulls the fronts towards the center. Thus the fabric below (crotch line) also accumulates at the center. Reducing the slant by adding 1-1,5cm at the belly point allows the fabric to distribute better.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6T3TKgpM/IMG-20240814-143322.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6T3TKgpM)

Wavy line means easing in.

Thanks for the drawing. It really helps.

I unpicked the inseam stiching above the knee. I folded my paper pattern to have a look what the effect of that dart would do and can see it pulls the centre back more into the middle and upright. It makes the tilt of the upper back trouser less. I sewed the dart, 7 cm down on the inner leg, 1 cm each side of that line, and up to the seat line where it meets the outer leg seam. I still need to sew the darts and put the waist band on, but, I have slipped them on and I am impressed at what a difference this has made. Here is a photo of me holding them up just to see what the back now looks like.


(https://i.postimg.cc/S2Rtjjv0/IMG-7782.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S2Rtjjv0)

I will make the front adjustments in the morning. It is after midnight here now. I will take another look at the waist band line and get the back to front tilt right. I am glad I have persisted with this one. Thanks everyone for the education!

So I have had some difficulties. I tried to make the adjustment to the front fly, but the seam allowance was already trimmed too narrow. I chopped out the fly area in a square either side to the crease line on each leg and inserted a new piece of calico in that area. The problem was when the trousers were reassembled, they didn't sit flat. So I decided to make two new front legs. I drew the new centre front angle 1 cm towards the fly either side, and took about 5 mm from the side seam at the outer lef top. After I sewed the legs together to each other, I ripped one of the legs turning it right way round at the cut notch bottom of zipper. No amount of iron on patching could save it.....

So, tomorrow, it is off to the shop for more calico. I am going to have to make a completely new toile. I'll draft the back again with a new angle like the ones I made with the huge diagonal darts. That wedge made the back leg inseams shorter than the fronts by 2 cm. Not sure what to do about that. Take 2 cm off the fronts? Or just steam it? I have kind of lost what little progress I had made. I am going to have to start again.  ???

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 16, 2024, 01:18:20 AMThat wedge made the back leg inseams shorter than the fronts by 2 cm. Not sure what to do about that. Take 2 cm off the fronts? Or just steam it?

I think you said earlier that you'd increased the inseam length. Double check your inside leg measurement, just to make sure that you didn't inadvertently make it too long. That could in part account for the extra length beneath the crotch line; though one would expect it at the front too. Which begs the question, are you including balance points when sewing your toiles? It's important to get the positions of back and front pieces precise, relative to each other. Apologies if you've already been doing this, but I have to ask.

Otherwise, it's over to peterle and others for advice (I have no knowledge of the Müller systems) :)

When I draft I take 1 - 1.5 cm (with wool): I stretch  the back inseam with the iron. (And if you work with say 1.5 cm slant you may get the same results and do not have the difficulties. Your slant factor was 0.8?)
I attach a pic from the default draft. the front inseam is about  32.96 the back inseam ist about 32.56 and measured the distance I have 0.47cm. Because of the bias in the back I can stretch that easil

(https://i.postimg.cc/3WBM9pWp/default-enge-hose.png) (https://postimg.cc/3WBM9pWp)
lg
posaune

Hello Gerry. I do mark and match up the hem, knee, hip and waist lines on the fronts and backs. I think I might have said I increased the inseam because it was too low on one of the toiles. I measured again and pushed the tape measure right up there. ???

Posaune, thanks for the drawing. I have found with the Müller drafts that when constructing the back inseam, you subtract 0.7 cm from whatever the front measures. I have been doing that. Although the wedge/dart I took out of the back legs from 7 cm below the crotch line helped with the fit, it did take 2 cm from the back inseam. I was able to steam it and stretch it when I rejoined that seam.

I am not sure which way to go now. I am almost thinking about redrafting another pattern onto paper using the skinny fit Müller block but straightening that outer leg curve more. Either way I need to get some more supplies.

EDIT: I have just checked. I have drawn a Skinny Fit Müller pattern without that 2 cm creaseline shift, and I did change the body rise from 22 cm to 20 cm. I have not cut a toile from this yet. As I appear to like cutting hundreds of toiles, I might try this, and then go through the fitting process. I just feel with the othe Adam of London copy, I was making things up and getting myself in more trouble than need be.

Hello all. I have cut and sewn another toile using the instructions in the Müller trouser book. It is the Skinny Fit block. I am not a fan of the side seam, particularly where it curves and meets the waist band. I knew I didn't like it when I had drawn it but for the sake of religiously following the instructions, I went with it. My toile has 2 cm seam allowance all around with 5 cm on the cuff, 1.5 cm either side of the fly and 3 cm above the waist band.

Here are some drawings for your consideration. The previous 'Adam of London' pattern based upon the pulled apart pair of trousers I have here (illustrated in green) versus the new Müller Skinny Fit draft (illustrated in black keyline).

Althought the outer leg curves on the front are somewhat similar, the trouser backs are different. I am wondering if it would work if I changed the back trouser outer leg curve at the top to a flatter line as seen on the Adam pattern? Add say 0.5 cm to 1 cm to the outer edge where it meets the waistband. Also, would I then take 0.5 cm to 1 cm from the centre back seam? I have a bit of looseness/excess cloth there. Maybe the angle needs to be more slanted?

And one other thing. What about the crotches on the new fronts and backs? They look quite different compared to my Adam draft previously.

I will iron and put on the toile and upload some photos in a moment to show you where I am up to.

Thanks, Stephen


(https://i.postimg.cc/r0DQwnws/IMG-7795.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0DQwnws)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mzKVzYPw/IMG-7796.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mzKVzYPw)

Photos of the recent toile. Müller Skinny Fit, pg 28 Trouser book. Pinned on the fly as the zip is not completely sewn in yet.

Your thoughts and advice appreciated.


(https://i.postimg.cc/B889FChL/IMG-7802.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B889FChL)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mc0xyFqd/IMG-7803.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mc0xyFqd)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SYhwwbmC/IMG-7804.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SYhwwbmC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dkdbHVcJ/IMG-7805.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkdbHVcJ)

Better! the back trouser is not drawn into the (Spalt??? Word )anymore. The hip lines goes a bit up at the center back and falls down in center front. (As far as I can see) Not much maybe 1 cm. So it is nearly in balance
I would increase the front: fronttrouser width = 1/4 Hipcirc. This will relax the front a bit. And relaese the front tip of the inseam a bit.
and decrease the back pants = 1/4 hipcirc + 0.5. Maybe take a away at inseam tip.
You have a flat rear.
lg
posaune

Yes, much better, your persistence has paid off.

You have 'cat's whiskers' at the CF crotch line, suggesting that the crotch is a little short in width. The front fork needs to be a little longer to release that tension.

The waistband could do with lowering a little at the side seams, especially on the LHS where it's very flat at the back before tilting down at the front.

Don't take the waistband off when making adjustments. Only unpick areas where it's a little uneven. Reposition the liberated parts of the band, pin/baste, check then re-sew.

When you're happy with the result, mark in pencil all along the base of the waistband at its seam, remove the band and transfer the results to you draft. Knock things into shape with a French curve and/or rule.

Thank you both for your encouragement. I will make some adjustments.

Posaune:
The front trouser width calculation for this block is, 1/4 HG - 1 cm. So you are suggesting to make it 1/4 HG and not subtract 1 cm? And release the tip of the inseam a bit. This means moving the tip out a little more (to the right of my drawing in post #56), correct?

The calculation for the back trouser is 1/4 HG + 2.5 cm. Your suggestion is to adjust it to be 1/4 HG + 0.5 cm. This means I am taking away 2 cm from the trouser backs. And make the inseam tip protrude a little less.

Hope I have this right. I will draft this onto paper and see what this looks like. I am guessing the amount I take off or add to a pattern piece must be from both edges, not just a side seam for example...

Gerry:
Appreciate the comments. I did see what the cat brought in.  :D  When you say the front fork needs to be longer, do you men the Centre Front needs to be longer? Or is it the crotch width which needs to be wider on the fronts?

Thanks

The crotch width needs to be a little wider on the fronts; and I should have used the term 'wider' rather than longer, just for clarity (my apologies).

I've posted this before, but it's a nice overview of the typical problems people come up against:

Thanks Gerry. I have added 1 cm to the front crotch width and sewn it back up. No other adjustments done yet; just the front crotch. It feels more roomy. Perhaps I should take a little off the back crotch tip like posaune suggested?

Here is a drawing and some photos.


(https://i.postimg.cc/fkGzNC7R/IMG-7820.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fkGzNC7R)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SnqmXKv0/IMG-7821.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SnqmXKv0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/568xNzpq/IMG-7822.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/568xNzpq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yv3MQw5v/IMG-7823.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yv3MQw5v)

(https://i.postimg.cc/D4X7G4hh/IMG-7824.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D4X7G4hh)

Sorry had the wrong draft: skinny fit with shortened Leibhoehe. there is 1.5m added in back.
You take the 1 cm for the front from the back. so if it is 2.5 cm you take only 1.5 in back. you look at the end of the book, look at the the man who pushes his butt into front. That is the alteration but they do 2cm that is a bit much maybe. But you need not the calves. (thats why a sideview from the whole body is better)
lg
posaune

This draft is better for you.
There is yet a bit length under the butt, but that is needed for sitting and climbing stairs, especially for slim trousers.
But I don't like the last alteration. It adds width at the front inseam, below the crotch line where it is not needed. It bunches and sags a bit between the legs.
I think the whiskers of the before version are caused by a tightness above the crotch line where the whiskers meet. I bet this is also the end of your front crotch seam. To verify this theory open the seam and keep just the lowest 2cm sewn. Try on and look what happens. I bet the seam will gape in this area, indicating there is a lack of width.

Ok, thank you for the suggestion peterle. I have just looked at the photographs and I think I prefer the before version too. I will redo the trousers, sewing just the bottom 2cm, and post the results here.

I unpicked the adjustment and put the trousers back to what they were prior. I sewed the seam only 2 cm up from the crotch on the centre front. Here is a photo of the fly area. The zip is not sewn to the left front yet. Let me know your thoughts.

EDIT: My Hip Girth is 100 cm. The instructions for this skinny fit block are  the Front Trouser Width is 1/4 HG - 1 cm. This equals 24 cm in my case. Would redrafting this as 25 cm (simply 1/4HG) be better in my case, or would 1/HG - 0.5 cm be enough?

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZWcbND0K/IMG-7832.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZWcbND0K)

In case you are not aware, I will point out that there are trousers that are specifically made for standing only. Trying to sit down in them may break the trousers or one might lose them off thy butt. These are usually military and are specifically for standing guards etc. 

Also there is a continual discussion in tailoring literature about the balance btween suave looks and comfort. naturally the youthful desire supreme fittedness, whereas the venerable require total comfort. These are the dimensions of trouser thought. ;)

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,695.msg5926.html

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,694.msg5925.html

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 19, 2024, 02:21:27 PMMy Hip Girth is 100 cm. The instructions for this skinny fit block are  the Front Trouser Width is 1/4 HG - 1 cm. This equals 24 cm in my case. Would redrafting this as 25 cm (simply 1/4HG) be better in my case, or would 1/HG - 0.5 cm be enough?

peterle was spot on with the analysis (and yes, the adjustment looked worse). The amount they've split open at the CF is the bare minimum of extra you need across the fronts to remedy the situation.

Follow convention IMO: 1/4 seat/hip circumference. I'm guessing that the minus one cm is the reason they suggest stretch fabric. I've never seen that before in a draft. Trousers without any ease (for stretch fabrics), yes, but not negative ease on the fronts only.

Quote from: SchneiderfreiIn case you are not aware, I will point out that there are trousers that are specifically made for standing only.Trying to sit down in them may break the trousers or one might lose them off thy butt.

When I was a teenager, a load of us mods used to get our trousers tailored by one guy in particular. The look was 'hipster', i.e. very low rise, but professional pride (and expertise) meant that there was a limit to how low this guy would go. When I complained about the height at the back once, with barely contained anger he patiently explained that my 'bare butt' would show if he went any lower; and that comparing my cut to that of my friends was futile, because my body didn't allow a lower rise (and theirs did).

He was absolutely right of course. As for sitting, my brother used to all the time,  whereas I mostly stood in the clubs. The knees of his hipsters were all stretched out and wrinkled (think elephants scrotum ... actually, don't), whereas mine were pristine. No, not meant for sitting.

My recent draft is the proto-mod style of the late 50s/early 60s. Parallel leg, 17 or 18 inch bottoms, no pleats, rise not too low. A more elegant look for a man of a certain age, I feel (even though I have the same build that I had as a young man).

And in a post-Daniel-Craig's-Bond-world, we have this (FFS):

https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1824441294984470575/photo/1

Always a bit trial and error. There is no other way.
The crotch seam does not gape a lot but the whiskers are gone. Maybe you come along with just altering the center line run. The gape shows you where and how much to add.
But I don't like the crotch area yet. My theory is, those waves are caused by the position of the upper part and I think you will end with gaping pockets. You remember my sketch? Try on the trousers but leave the zip lines 2cm apart at the top when pinning the waistband. To keep the waistband the same length baste 1cm away at each side at a front dart position or at the side seam. This is a quick and dirty method to get an impression, whether this alteration works.

Thanks Gerry! I did get a good laugh with the link to X/Twitter. Are you trying to tell me something? :D I am thinking though, dressing like we did in our 20's is perhaps not a good idea in our 50's! Sounds like you took your mod thing very seriously Gerry. At our school in Southampton, you bought a parker from an army disposal and got your mum to sew a Union Jack tea towel on the back. Just add a load of badges.

I have drafted a new skinny fit pattern and cut the toile (yes, I know I shouldn't have ::) ). In the process of sewing it together now. What I did was add a cm to the front hip, so instead of 1/4 HG - 1 cm, it is now just 1/4 HG. This ought to give me more room across the front. With the backs, I have taken a centimeter away, so instead of 1/4 HG + 2.5 cm, it is now 1/4 HG + 1.5 cm.

In the Müller book it says:

"With these tight trousers, it is essential to check the hip girths. Measure and add the hip girths of the front and back trousers (distance A and B). Subtract 1/2 hip girth from this figure to obtain the fullness.

Here: A+B = 51.5 cm
. /. 1/2 Hg = 51.0 cm
= 1/2 ease
= 0.5 cm

Since the ease is less than 1 cm, an elastic outer fabric must be used. Only from an ease of 1 cm or more can solid materials be used."

I have 1 cm on my pattern. I am going to sew this up and see how they fit.

Measuring across the waist line of the front and back I have 91.4 cm to be eased onto the 90 cm waist band. That is not much ease... 0.7 cm over each half of the trouser. I will go along with it, but I am thinking about straightening the side seam at the top of the trouser backs and easing this extra fabric on. (like the Adam of London pair I pulled apart; see post #56)

I will post photos soon.

Have you added inlay, incase your body is shaped somewhat different? For example. The seat circumference measurements on the pattern is average. But your hips are narrower, and larger buttocks? Or, the other way around?  Inlays give allowance for fine tuning adjustments. Inlays you don't want after the fitting can be easily trimmed away.

Yes, I do have inlay. I left 2 cm seam allowance on the legs, 3 cm at the waist band, 5 cm on the hem, 4 cm on the centre back seam tapering to 1.5 cm in the fork, and 1.5 cm centre front.

I have sewn the toile. This version is the Müller Skinny Fit with 1/4 HG on the front; so I did not draft the 1/4 HG - 1 cm recommended. I then took a centimeter from the back making it 1/4 HG + 1.5 cm, rather than + 2.5 cm.

The fronts now have more room across the hip line which feels a lot better. The waist band also looks better than my previous efforts. I am sure there is room for improvement though! Perhaps pulling the backs up at the waist line to eliminate the creases under the buttocks? I look forward to your comments. Thanks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2q9TdJ9H/IMG-7862.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q9TdJ9H)

(https://i.postimg.cc/N9yDd4WQ/IMG-7863.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9yDd4WQ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jnPXbjx9/IMG-7864.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnPXbjx9)

(https://i.postimg.cc/F1LGcTyZ/IMG-7865.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1LGcTyZ)

Some very minor issues, but the best results yet.

There's still a little tightness across the front by the look of things. Possibly because you decreased ease across the seat at the same time as increasing it across the fronts (what the Lord giveth etc). The tops of the side seams appear to be curving back a little, suggesting this is the case?

With such little ease across the back, it's possible that you're always going to trap cloth under the seat, so I'm not sure that pulling the backs up will help. I'll defer to others though. Although I have experience of cutting narrow leg trousers, I've always allowed sufficient ease across the seat for cloth to drape down the leg naturally. I've never made trousers this snug.

Were your Adam trousers this tight? If so, how was the CB seam sewn? You're probably going to need to reinforce it (double lapped seam) if things are tight sitting.

PS if the inlay figures you gave include your seam allowance, then things are a little skinny on the leg seams, CF and CB at the fork. Not much scope for adjustment.

Thanks for the feedback Gerry. No, the Adam trousers were not as tight. I had given up on replicating them and went back to the Müller Skinny Fit block.

It sounds like you think I need to increase the ease in the seat in the back of the trousers. I have knocked off a centimeter each leg at the back. Perhaps that extra 2 cm is what I might need.

I might not be using the correct terminology. I have left 2 cm around the inseam and the outer leg on both the fronts and the backs. Perhaps this is not much to mess around with? What about the knee width and the cuff? Is that too narrow for your liking? I am thinking it might need an extra centimeter or two.

Here are the measurements I have used on this toile:

Waist Band Girth      90 cm
Hip Girth             100 cm
Hem                    38 cm
Knee Width               44 cm
Side Length              99 cm
Inseam                   79 cm
Body Rise                20 cm
Knee Height            45.4 cm
Front Trouser Width      25 cm    (previously 24 cm)
Back Trouser Width     26.5 cm    (previously 27.5 cm)
Front Crotch Width        6 cm
Back Crotch Width        15 cm

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 21, 2024, 07:37:48 PMIt sounds like you think I need to increase the ease in the seat in the back of the trousers. I have knocked off a centimeter each leg at the back. Perhaps that extra 2 cm is what I might need.

If your inlay will allow it, then give it a go (it's all experience). If nothing much changes, or the alteration looks worse, try peterle's suggestion of creating a little ease around the waist and gathering it into the band (I think that's what was suggested).

Quote from: Trouser SnakeI have left 2 cm around the inseam and the outer leg on both the fronts and the backs. Perhaps this is not much to mess around with?

That's around 3/4 inch. Assuming a seam allowance of 3/8ths, you're only left with 3/8ths (about a cm) of inlay. Not much play, is there. You're ploughing through calico. A more generous inlay would have saved you some time and money.

Quote from: Trouser SnakeWhat about the knee width and the cuff? Is that too narrow for your liking? I am thinking it might need an extra centimeter or two.

Your hem is around 15 inches and the knee width a tiny bit under 17.5 inches. Which is pretty standard for this type of cut. The creases seem to be running nicely over your knee caps, so if you're happy with the look and don't mind slight tightness at the knee when you sit, don't worry.

I used to cut my trousers with the same knee measurement, but in my case the creases are pulled towards the inseam for the reasons I gave earlier. Although I'm still slim (and proudly so!), I'm a six footer and my bones are proportionally larger, I guess, so I need a 18.5 inch knee. Everyone is different. It looks like you can get away with it, though you may find that the creases are pulled in a little when you bend the knee. Not a big deal, but would be interested to know if that's the case.

What I thought I might try this evening is unpicking the current pair (version 6) and using my previous (version 5) trouser back paper pattern, I'll chalk this onto the reduced by 1 cm seat of this trouser back.... then I'll stitch them back up. When I line up the crease lines of the version 5 and 6 pattern backs, I can see how the 1 cm is spread... a little to the centre back seam; a little to the outside leg seam tapering to the knee.

No point cutting another toile just yet, although I do like making them and I get to practice my sewing at the same time.

Perhaps I should try to straighten that back outer seam curve too at the top. Maybe that will stop the pulling of the side seam to the back, and give me a little fabric to ease onto the waistband as peterle suggested?

(https://i.postimg.cc/4m6dvyXQ/IMG-7878.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4m6dvyXQ)

To get tight trousers fit well is not easy and needs some ironwork. You can't pull the length under the butt up, this will not work. This area is concave and when you want the fabric to follow you have to form it.
I would do the following: rise the knee marks on the toile of the undersides about 1or 1,5cm. Try to stretch the sideseam and inseam of the undersides with the iron from about 10cm above the knee to the crotch line. Just the edges. Give also the butt seam a good stretch at the curve.
Resew the toile: Make sure the new knee marks meet the front knee marks. 10cm above and below the knee marks join the parts flush. Ease in the fronts above the knee, ease in the undersides below the knee(at calve hight) . Hem lines and crotchlines have to match also.

Hi, sorry to interrupt this wonderful discourse...
I agree with Peterle, to me the hip curve on the back part looks a little unnatural as well. Generally I thing that the back part of your trouser has too little diameter and the darts look as if they are positioned too far to the sides. Personally, I wouldn't do another toile but pair the legs (one into the other) and stretch out the diameter on the ironing board then try them on again; you may be surprised. Your centerback may come up a bit and the trouser could lack width at the back waist that would be compensated by straightening the hipcurve of the back part. Like Gerry said, with such a tight hip circumference, your seat will always push down the back basin of the pant a bit. Be ware that fiddling with center back form (pulling it up) also changes the balance of the pant; they may start "sticking" at your front thighs...
But generally, these look far better than anything before!

Cheers, Hendrick

I have added the 1 cm to the hip girth in the back trouser pattern. I removed the entire back trouser sections and waist band when I made the alteration. I ironed the leg pieces and chalked onto them using my previous back draft which had the added 2.5 cm to the hip girth. There is a tiny bit of extra measurement of about 5 mm on the centre backs and the side seams of each piece. This tapers toward the knee. Also on the inner leg backs there is now about 5 mm extra. I have a bit more room in the seat and they are more comfortable to sit down in. They do feel a little baggy though.

I have not done any further adjustments. I have a list of other things to try:The iron work and knee height suggested by peterle. And straightening the hip curve suggested by Hendrick. Oh, and moving the darts towards the centre.

Here are some current photographs for your consideration. Thank you all for the ongoing help.


(https://i.postimg.cc/qzgdvR24/IMG-7885.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzgdvR24)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yDZ40bfG/IMG-7886.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDZ40bfG)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mtqWzsSM/IMG-7887.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mtqWzsSM)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nsf82Ggh/IMG-7888.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nsf82Ggh)

Just comparing the current adjustment with the previous, I actually think I have made it worse. The was an issue with the hip seam pulling to the back. I might have remedied that with a straightening on the curve where it reaches the waist band, as in those Adam on London pair. Maybe I should have held off on the adjustment and waited until I read the iron work advice of peterle's? I guess it is all experience. I like making toiles. I do hope I am three toiles away from a real pair of trousers though...

Calico being what it is, it's difficult to know it those stress lines across the front are 'historic' and embedded in the cloth, or actual tightness. I have a feeling it's still the latter, but giving the fronts a press would help determine this.

They might seem a little stodgy at the back, but don't forget that actual cloth will have drape, whereas calico doesn't; so they're probably not as bad as you think. Having said that, the extra ease at the back would look more natural with a slightly wider leg/less severe taper (the drape would fall better).

I think like Gerry. It's not bad.
Much more relaxed, no stress folds anymore. Don't forget there will be pockets that also consume a bit of width.
Try the shifting knee marks, it will help to get rid of the unwanted length under the butt.(wich are probably caused by a slight forward hip posture. Posaune already assumed)

Thinking about your hip girth:  hip girth is distributed very individually. Your hips are quite flat at the sides and your gluteus is well deviloped towards the back and a bit concave towards the side. That's usually demanding a larger crotch diameter. (your back seam pulls a bit between the buttocks).
As a trouser pattern is a proportional pattern (the crotch diameter is calculated from the hip measurement) the easiest way to get a fitting pattern would be to draw the pattern with an enlarged hip measurement and finally reduce the hip width of the finished pattern at the side seam. I know. A bit late. Sorry.

Thanks Gerry and peterle. It's not too late. I bought another 4 meters of calico today so I can cut another three trousers this week!

What I might try do is draft another pattern onto paper with the enlarged hip measurement. Currently I have a seat measurement of 100 cm. What would you suggest would be a suitable size to go up to? Would an extra 2 cm be enough.... 102 cm? A 1/4 of the Hip Girth is then 25.5 cm. Fronts would be 25.5 cm and the backs would be 25.5 + 2.5 cm if I go by the book.

Some calculations based on this assumption of 102 cm Hip Girth:

Total Crotch Width is 1/4 HG - 4 cm = 21.5 cm.
Front Trouser Crotch Width is 1/10 of 1/2 HG +1 cm = 5.1 cm + 1 cm = 6.1 cm.
Back Trouser Crotch Width is TCW - FTCW = 15.4 cm

This would give me 0.4 cm more on the back crotch and 0.1 cm more on the front crotch width.

What are your thoughts about this? I'm ready to draft and cut another toile. Should I be increasing the knee width and the hem slightly while I am at it?

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 22, 2024, 07:58:45 PMThanks Gerry and peterle. It's not too late. I bought another 4 meters of calico today so I can cut another three trousers this week!

There's no need to cut a further three pairs of trousers. One should suffice because with the proper amount of inlay you should be able to make significant amendments without needing to resort to another draft/toile.

Therein lies the problem. Please leave more inlay and get into the habit of working like that. Seriously, you're wasting so much time/money/cloth doing what you're doing.

another vote for a bigger crotch diameter.
lg
posaune
Asymmetrie? Have you measured your left and right side and thighs? Right side looks better.
(With some figure types I measure the hip girth in a special way. But this is me:
In back I lay the band over the top of the gluteus maximus and then I move the front part of the band up and down to catch the belly and protruding thighs. And compare it with the horizontal measurement. After this I decide what to take.) 
I could not attch a pic, doing something wrong?

Thanks for the crotch diameter vote posaune! I am drafting a new pattern now, and would like to get something close to a fit without making too many more toiles (right, Gerry?).

I am looking through the Müller Trouser book and I see a few different formulas depending on the block. Most of them use 1/10 of 1/2 of the Hip Girth + 1 cm for the Front Crotch Width. Sometimes it is + 0.5 cm, but there is not much one can adjust there.

With the Back Crotch Width, it is calculated by subtracting the Front Trouser Crotch Width from the Total Crotch Width. The Total Crotch Width with this Skinny Fit trouser block is calculated as 1/4 HG - 4 cm. I have noticed though, that this formula changes depending on the type of trouser one is drafting. The Slim Fit Trousers on pg 9 specifies 1/4 HG - 3 to 4 cm. The calculation depending on the trouser is either a minus single number, or - 3 to 4cm, or - 4 to 5 cm.

As the Back Crotch Width is looking like the place where the crotch width is determined, and because the Total Crotch width is what determines that measurement, it might be that in order to change my crotch diameter, I will need to alter my formula.

What if I change the Total Crotch Width from 1/4 HG - 4 cm, to 1/4 HG - 3 cm? This would mean a new Total Crotch Width of 22 cm (previously 21 cm). If say the HG was 100 cm and 1/4 HG was 25 cm, then the Front Crotch Width would be 1/10 of 1/2 HG + 1 cm = 6 cm. Taking the Front Crotch Width away from the Total Crotch Width to get the Back Crotch Width gives me 16 cm... I gain an extra cm.

I am sure I could have summarised this a lot easier. Just thinking out loud. Is this something I should be trying now?

Please tell me if I have this wrong.

Crotch depth for front and back pieces can be expressed as a ratio. It's roughly 1:2 from front to back (the back is double the width of the front). Older type drafts can use something like fifths IIR (possibly 2:3 ratio??).

You could use your current widths to work out an approximate ratio, increase your crotch width a little and reapply said ratio to the new width. I didn't go through your calculations because metric doesn't register with me when it comes to tailoring, but it's simple enough to do.

It is actually possible to measure crotch width. There are a couple of ways of doing this, one an estimate the other exact. In the case of the latter, it's highly invasive and, with some people, wouldn't be that hygienic, so not something to be done, frankly. It's also difficult to do on yourself.

With the estimate, we improvise a calliper. Place a T-square between the legs and hook the T part onto the back of the legs at the crotch line, just below the seat. Slide a rule along the front until it butts up against the front of the legs at the crotch line and read off the depth. The actual depth we want is from the  coccyx to the pubic bone, but if you look at anatomical drawings in profile the top of the thighs at crotch level has a similar/the same depth.

This measurement often needs a little extra cloth, for the reason I gave earlier: the tips get pulled into the gap between the legs in order to bridge it. With most people this isn't a problem and what was measured will suffice, but with a prominent seat (not necessarily large, but muscular will do it - and that's my case) the backs fill up more than anticipated, creating a slight pull on the front fork. A tiny pull can twist the whole leg slightly inwards, causing off-centre creases. Very annoying to diagnose because often there are no obvious signs of stress at the front.

As for the exact method, it's very similar to the above, only the T-square is held vertically. The tip of one leg of the T is pulled into the crease of the backside so that it butts up against the coccyx. A ruler is then slid along the main length of the T (which protrudes from the front of the legs) until it butts up against the pubic bone and a measurement is taken.

The ruler has to be perpendicular to the floor and it's very easy to accidentally angle it when measuring oneself. Things like knicker-elastic can prevent the T-square from nestling between the crease of the backside too. Like I said, highly invasive and not worth pursuing IMO because the result (assuming you get a correct measurement) is often the same as the estimated measurement.

I would add 4cm to the hip measure for the new draft. Thus you have 1cm at each seam to remove from the hip bow.
I would take the pattern calculations, the increasing should also increase the crotch diameter.
Taking a measured crotch diameter for drafting was difficult for me.  I didn't know in which hight to measure and then where to apply it. Although it's most probably at hip line level. (the hip hight level itself is often just calculated instead of measured. Doesn't match the individual hip line hight necessarily)

Thanks peterle. My hip is 100 cm, so go up to 104 cm is what you are saying. Yes, the hip will increase the crotch diameter.

Front Trouser Width will be 26 cm
Total Crotch Width will be 1/4 HG - 4 cm = 22 cm
Front Trouser Crotch Width 1/10 of 1/2 HG + 1 cm = 6.2 cm
Back Trouser Crotch Width TCW - FTCW = 15.8 cm

Previously I had a Front Crotch of 6 cm and a Back Crotch of 15 cm. So I get an extra cm total. If I changed the TCW formula to 1/4 HG - 3 cm, I would get another cm in the back crotch.

I will draft a pattern on paper and see what it looks like.

I am actually a little worried about this. It might fix the crotch width issue, but cutting off the side seams 1 cm... would that not throw the crease lines into disarray?

Quote from: peterle on August 24, 2024, 12:28:37 AMTaking a measured crotch diameter for drafting was difficult for me.  I didn't know in which hight to measure and then where to apply it. Although it's most probably at hip line level. (the hip hight level itself is often just calculated instead of measured. Doesn't match the individual hip line hight necessarily)

Hopefully this diagram makes things clearer:

https://flic.kr/p/2qbC52r

The top, blue line is the actual measurement we'd like. The position of the coccyx is usually at the fullest part of the seat. Which makes sense, because it's a delicate bone and needs all that muscle bulk for protection. If someone has a flat backside, then the top of the pubic bone can be taken as the fullest part/seat-line. Either way, a simple drop of the tape measure to floor from the seat-line gives us our exact vertical position (estimates not required), at which we apply our measurement.

The estimated measurement is in red. It's taken right at the top of the leg, at the crotch line, with the T of the T-square horizontal (parallel with the floor). The 'legs' of the T hook onto the backs of the actual legs, right below the seat. Hopefully you can also see from the diagram that the distance is similar to the actual crotch width.

As with all measurements, there's always margin for error; and the body being what it is, drafts can create slight positional changes compared to the reality of things. I much prefer doing this than using estimates, though.

PS I roughly drew those lines on the diagram using paint, which was very fiddly. So the positions aren't ideal, but you get the idea ...  :)

PPS Just for comparison, Stone's estimate (IIR) is a sixth of seat for the total crotch width. With a 38 inch seat, that gives me 6.33 inches. My estimated measurement is 6 3/8ths and my actual crotch width measurement (wedging the T-square in my a*se-crack and saying three Hail Marys) is 6.5 inches. All work, though I need to add 3/4 inch in my case, to prevent crease misalignment at the knee (see earlier post).

Thanks Gerry. This is really useful information. I am drafting onto paper right now. I'll make some measurements and check I am in the right range with the pattern.

Don't change the formula alone, draw the pattern with the enlarged measurement. Don't forget, also the back seam position is calculated from the hip width. Thus back seam position and crotch diameter are linked. Changing just the crotch diameter will disturb the proportion of the draft.

Quote from: Trouser Snake on August 24, 2024, 12:46:36 AMI am actually a little worried about this. It might fix the crotch width issue, but cutting off the side seams 1 cm... would that not throw the crease lines into disarray?

No, I don't think so.
Draw and sew the trousers as usual (without removing the added amount) and pin it at the fitting if you are in doubt. Your front crease lines tend inwards slightly at the top anyway at the moment. Getting them a bit outwards wouldn't be bad.

Gerry, thanks for the sketch. I don't understand why it is measured just to the bone. I always thought the fleshy parts of the butt are also part of the body diameter that is to be covered. I would love to know the thoughts Mueller has regarding the crotch diameter. Sadly they hardly give a detailed insight to the reasons behind the pattern steps.

Quote from: peterle on August 24, 2024, 07:09:01 AMGerry, thanks for the sketch. I don't understand why it is measured just to the bone. I always thought the fleshy parts of the butt are also part of the body diameter that is to be covered.

The curve of the CB seam nestles in the crease of the backside, so crotch width is from the bone at the back (coccyx) to the top of the bone at the front (pubic), plus the relatively small amount of flesh covering them. The fleshy part of the seat is accommodated by the ease across the backs.

The estimated crotch width measurement is something I got from Don McCunn. IIR, he used a pair of L-squares to improvise a calliper, which seemed very convoluted to me. Besides, few are going to have more than one L-square. It's much easier to do with a T-square and ruler (or a single L-square and ruler, for that matter). The 'exact' measurement is of my own, perverse devising. It does work, but it's not for the faint-hearted.

I don't use McCunn's drafting method, incidentally, but I started with his book, which is a nice intuitive approach that takes some of the pseudoscience out of cutting (at no point do you ever find yourself saying, "why am I doing this?").

Quote from: peterle on August 24, 2024, 07:09:01 AMI would love to know the thoughts Mueller has regarding the crotch diameter. Sadly they hardly give a detailed insight to the reasons behind the pattern steps.

If my experience is anything to go by, I think most people try out various cutting systems till they find the one that works for them, then they swear by it. If a draft doesn't work for someone else, then clearly their body has 'anomalies' that require adjustments - the cutting system is never at fault in any way, of course! :)

Given that so many systems have different estimates for the front and back fork widths, they can't all be right. Which suggests that inseam placement isn't overly critical (there's a small margin for individual preference and/or error).

I watched a lecture online about body scanning sometime ago. It's clear that there are regional differences in body type around the globe. And body shapes and heights have changed throughout the ages, so estimates in books can be very hit or miss for the modern cutter. Scanning can provide exact measurements, however, including for crotch width, so things will undoubtedly get better in the future.

I have been drafting the pattern. Slowing down a bit the past couple of days.

I have used a Hip Girth of 104 cm and run exactly to the recipe in the book. I have drafted and cut out the trouser front paper pattern - looks good. I am currently drafting the back trouser outer leg seam. My waist measurement used is still 90 cm. The issue I am having with the back trouser is because I have increased the Hip Girth from 100 cm to 104 cm, where my outer curve meets the waistband from the seat line, that curve is quite accentuated. Before it was not so extreme. I think I am going to end up with a womans hip shape.

Should this be a concern for me at this point? I assume I will be reducing the measurement at the hip by 1 cm each side in order to fit these. The point of going up to 104 cm HG was to increase the crotch diameter. I should just soldier on, yeah?

The point was not just the larger crotch diameter but also to get everything at the right place. At the fronts there will be a little more room between crease an zip line. Same for the back, slightly different back seam position.
When you've finished the pattern you can also flatten the hip curve in the draft before beginning the toile.

Yes, I have already noticed with the fronts that the original calculation with the Front Trouser Width (1/4 HG - 1 cm), gives me 25 cm, which is what I was trying to achieve previously by dropping the - 1cm and just using 1/4 HG when it was 100 cm HG not 104 cm.

There is no ease on the waist band on this pattern, so that increased HG has to curve in more on the back to meet the 90 cm waist band. I am assuming to flatten the hip curve, I might be cutting into the hip line rather than adding to the top. I will cut this out with 3 or 3.5 cm allowance around the edges so I have ample room for alterations.

I have just realised... the ease or half ease is taken from the measurements of the hip line: subtract front from back. My front is 25 cm and the back is currently 27.5 cm, giving me 2.5 cm per half trouser. I will cut and sew the calico to the paper pattern. Perhaps the 27.5 cm of the back 1/4 HG where it meets that side seam is what will be adjusted?

I have hit a wall with this. Because of the increased HG, the waist measurement of the front has increased. This means that the backs are now smaller at the waist line than the fronts.

I am now thinking that the front pattern will have to be trimmed down at the hip line and waist band, AS WELL as the backs. So really, if I don't trim the front trouser pattern first, I am going to have a smaller back waistline than the front.

Two patterns ago I had 22 cm waist on the front and 25 - 2 for the dart = 23 cm on the back. This pattern already has 23 cm on the front which means the backs will be 22 cm once the dart is allowed for.

I am not sure how to proceed. Do I take a cm off the waistband of the front at the side seam and taper to the knee... then draw the backs from that? Or do I make the backs wider at the waist regardless of the 90 cm waist band? It has all quickly become very unscientific.

Just sew it. You will see how the side seam run is.
When it is too crooked  you can make a simple seam shift(what you take from the front is added to the back)

I fully agree with Peterle. These are minor problems and done after the fitting. Don´t you fret. If you need more in front than in back... so what? I can give you a pic how it is done.

lg
posaune
And as I said before it would be easier if we could see your whole sideview to analyse your posture. I think that is part of your difficulties.

Thank you both. I still have the 104 cm HG front pattern, and a mostly completed back pattern. After struggling with a hip curve on the back, I decided to try something else and I have just drafted yet ANOTHER pattern... ??? , this time it is using exactly the dimensions in the book. It has a HG of 102 cm. The hip curve is so much better, plus, I have more crotch diameter. The only issue is, the waist measurement is 92 cm and I am 90 cm. I am hoping when I cut and sew them this evening, they might be a good fit... apart from the waistband being 2 cm too wide... but I will deal with that later.

If this doesn't work out, I will need to go back to the 104 cm draft, and somehow deal with an ugly back trouser hip curve problem. I should draw this and post pictures so you can see what I mean.

I will post some photos when I have sewn this, and give you some good side view photographs.

The issue maybe that the draft is shortened sitting more on the hip.
If you have difference between 90 (Waist) and 102 or even a 104 hip and get a "hippy" back I have difficulties to imagine. But I am used to ladies measurements.
I give you a pic how to egalise the side seams. I overdid it a bit and only roughly - here the front is very "hippy" First the draft. I shifted the front trouser to the side. Centered the difference at side seam and drafted a new side seam in light blue. Then I subtracted from front and added to the back and draftet a new center line

(https://i.postimg.cc/SXYxT9br/analyse5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXYxT9br)

lg
posaune

Yes, I am still here!

Well, I cut through another 4 meters of calico. I tried a few things and did some study. I pulled apart one of my last two bought pairs of trousers and did some measurements; made some observations. I have been thinking a lot about the centre back seam, the crotch shape.

Anyway, the one I am presenting here is the closest I have got to a fit. This is based upon the skinny fit Müller block, with a few changes. I have looked at the difference between this block and the skinny fit jean block, also found in the book. Main differences are the crotch shape and width and the angle of the back waistline. I noted that the outer leg of the jean was a lot straighter than in the trouser block. After making the toile I unpicked the outer leg and redrew it, and also shifted the seam line 2 cm towards the front (thanks posaune!). I think you are right about drafting the outer leg seam straight Gerry. It took a while to get this idea into my head!

Ok, so it isn't perfect. You will be able to see better than I where it can be improved. I have 3.5 cm seams all around so could accomodate most alterations. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.


(https://i.postimg.cc/Sn1nN4QB/IMG-7945.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sn1nN4QB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HJJVrNVV/IMG-7948.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HJJVrNVV)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RN96gGbD/IMG-7949.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RN96gGbD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MnpcSHw0/IMG-7950.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnpcSHw0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qtgC8RZB/IMG-7953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtgC8RZB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rDfr0WjY/IMG-7954.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rDfr0WjY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9Dm9Q1d7/IMG-7955.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9Dm9Q1d7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/F1S3WYF7/IMG-7957.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1S3WYF7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zV1W9q3p/IMG-7958.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zV1W9q3p)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mf1BvF3y/IMG-7959.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mf1BvF3y)

(https://i.postimg.cc/TyHgSmWW/IMG-7960.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TyHgSmWW)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nX2v4NF2/IMG-7961.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nX2v4NF2)

Well. The good thing first. The crotch diameter seems to be right now.

In your last pics I recognized that lifting your arms change the fit. For future pics please let your arms hang ad just bend the elbows.

Obviously you did change the fronts a lot. They are out of balance. Look at the creases. They bow inwards dramatically towards the waistline. Also the hip lines meet in a dramatic chevron. This tells me you took out too much at the front center seam. This causes a diagonal pull.The pockets will gape. And it would look terrible with stripes or checks.

When you like experimenting, open the waist seam and the side seam of a front part till the hip line and open the zip. Get in the pants, close the waistband and look what happens when you move the loose front more towards the outside or to the inside.

Do the alteration of post 50. At least 1,5cm. Make a short dart instead of easing in.

The alteration of post 82 will clean the back a bit.

Thank you peterle. I did change the centre front zip angle. On the toile I posted in post 76, I angled the zip 1 cm towards the outer leg at the waistline. This was the instruction with the Müller book. On this most recent toile, I angled this line a FURTHER 1.7 cm towards the outside... so, 2.7 cm total! This is why it is pulling those crease lines towards the centre front! It is so obvious to me now that you have pointed this out. I was doing this to compensate for the straightening of the side seam, or so I thought.

I will unpick some stitching on these and get into them and see what happens. I will make the alterations and post some photographs.

Here is a photo the front pattern from post 76, compared with what I did to this current one. I cut 1.7 cm from the centre front and added it to the side to straighten the side seam.


(https://i.postimg.cc/9Rhd4kxs/IMG-7982.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9Rhd4kxs)

Quote from: Trouser Snake on September 03, 2024, 02:08:00 AMOn this most recent toile, I angled this line a FURTHER 1.7 cm towards the outside... so, 2.7 cm total!

This thread is too long to find my post, but I'm pretty sure I said that the angling should be no more than half an inch, otherwise it causes problems (as you've discovered). Apologies if I didn't say this (might have been another, recent thread).

You're getting there.

[Edit] I just remembered, it was in the following thread:

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,1511.msg11733.html#msg11733

Thanks Gerry for your input, and I am sorry this has gone on for so long. You think I would have learnt my lesson by now. I am indeed learning by making these mistakes.

In my 20 toile marathon since June, I have figured out a few things. I don't want that curve to the outer leg which I seemed hell-bent on drafing, again and again. I am not really one for pleats either. What I would like is a flat front trouser with just a single small dart to the back.

I am after something quite minimal really. There isn't much to a pair of trousers. Just two parts; a front and a back, and those seams! I am both astounded at how difficult this is and in awe at those who have put in the hours and mastered this.

I will give this another go.

The only way we learn is through making mistakes, so no need to apologise. The important thing is learning from them.

You need some curvature to the hips, and going by memory nothing you've posted has had excessive curvature, so perhaps you're obsessing too much about this issue?

That aside, if you do want a straighter side seam you have a few options:

1 Shift the crease line of the leg towards the side seam a little (as with that 2cm shift in the other Muller draft).

2 Increase the width of the fronts slightly in order to straighten the side seams, then take out that excess either in the form of a front dart, or a gather - the gather being taken into the waistband. In the case of the latter, keep the extra width small so that it isn't noticeable once gathered in. Many tailors like to do this anyway, locally, near the hips, because the slight ease helps prevent pockets from gaping.

Perfect Gerry, especially with a straighter center front like you suggest... Now here's how I measure the surplus waist width to gather...  Put the top sides of your front and back parts together and align. Take a piece of silk paper the width of the waistband and make the bottom line of it follow the waisline of the joined parts. Now fold in the excess in the paper band from the top of the band to the waistline to find the excess to gather. For a trouser with Italian (slanted) pockets, start gathering abt an inch "before" the pocket opening till abt an inch "after" the side seam.  Press the waistband to form. Clearly, this works best with a classic, bias cut waistband facing. Following the two thumb rule'you will be able to slide your two thumbs into the front waist to arrange your shirt, but your your trousers will sit at your hipbones nevertheless... I first went back to this working on 70's style flatfront pants for women...

Cheers, Hendrick 

Oh oh I admire your patience! When you have time (between sewing a new toile) have a look at HandemadePhD. In her Reference guide/ table of contents you will find many chapters about trousers and grainlines .
lg
posaune
example:
https://handmadephd.com/2021/03/13/crease-line-placement-at-the-hips/

Quote from: posaune on September 03, 2024, 06:11:57 PMOh oh I admire your patience! When you have time (between sewing a new toile) have a look at HandemadePhD. In her Reference guide/ table of contents you will find many chapters about trousers and grainlines .
lg
posaune
example:
https://handmadephd.com/2021/03/13/crease-line-placement-at-the-hips/

Interesting reading, but I stopped after a while. It's nuts that her crotch width changes with every repositioning of the crease line. It seems that the distance between the crease placement and the side seam is kept static and taken out in the other direction to the fork tip, no matter what; because typically the crease is half the distance between the fork tip and side seam?

I may have misunderstood (apologies to the lady if that's the case), but I think this goes back to what I was saying earlier in this thread: determining the crease position based on an estimate (fork width) doesn't make sense. She's sort of doing things in reverse - estimating crotch width depending on the exact positioning of the crease line - but it kind of invalidates some of her findings. I prefer to position the crease relative to the CF (fly-line), or vice versa, maintaining the crotch width at its ideal measurement. Obviously the leg should fall where it needs to fall, but by following the basic principle I mentioned, repositioning of the crease - as with the Muller draft's displacement of 2cm - is a little more forgiving if the crotch width doesn't change correspondingly.

What have I missed??  :)

You missed nothing Gerry. Here's the thing, men put on weight disproportionally (had to type that twice, early morning). Most algoritms in drafts are based on ideal proportions. You are correct in questioning the position of the creaseline in relation to the diameter in a pant. Or better; in relation to the thigh circumference, because that is what this is about. If I put on 10 percent of waist width (god forbid), it is extremely improbable that I will also put on 10 percent of thigh width. And there we go. Ideally the creaseline will visibly run down to the middle of your front thigh. By adding to the centerfront and using the "ideal" algorithm, your creaseline will move too far away from the center of your front leg towards the center front. This will also result in a frontleg that (at least for my tastes) becomes too curved at the sides. So basically it is all about the relation between the waist and thigh widts.

Cheers, Hendrick