I am seeking desperately information about the pitch of the sleeve. History: I had a nasty accident in 22. Now I am able again to sew for myself. But my posture is complete new (so to speak) and the result: my sleeves are a mess. I have now a very rounded back and my Asymmetrie is bigger than before. But I think I am twisted a bit in the axis too, my right shoulder comes more forward than the left. If I rotate the sleeve I have to take it 2 cm up into the back. Then the nasty slanted fold disappears. I searched for info but did not find enough. Do anyone knew where to look?
Lg Posaune
Im sorry to hear about your accident.
I do t know if I have any references for this, but I will look.
Take care!
Hello Posaune.
Here is what we do for a shoulder that comes forward. You change the body a little so there is more rome for your shoulder joint. The text is dutch, but maybe google can help. Otherwise ask me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8JnJT4Wp/Schermafbeelding-2024-02-22-om-17-16-41.png) (https://postimg.cc/8JnJT4Wp)
Hi Pfaff 260
interesting article. And thank you, I hope I can manage the language. I am working together with a friend from the Netherlands. We are developing macros for a CAD system.
Reading that article I understand why I need more length over the shoulder bone. Measuring myself is difficult for me so I am glad when she visits in March.
Lg
Posaune
Here is my take on the article, any corrections are very welcome:
A fold to the shoulder joint.
Another flaw in the upper part is a fold in the shoulder of the body, which runs from the neck point of the body in an oblique direction to the upper arm joint, see Figure 8.
As always, this fold in its longitudinal direction indicates a deficiency. It is important to find the cause of this shortage and solve it correctly.
A twisted position in the shoulder girdle is the cause of this error, because if a figure that prevents this error is allowed to rotate the shoulder backwards, this fold will disappear. If, on the other hand, a figure who is correctly clothed in the shoulders is allowed to turn the shoulders forward, this fold will actually occur.
In the latter case the shoulder causes more curvature and therefore more length is needed at the shoulder bone: the first case actually diverted this curvature to the rear.
We are going to eliminate this deficiency at the shoulder bone and get used to a representation of this by cutting the pattern from point A to the hollow part of the shoulder and then folding it slightly at the neck, see B., which leaves a drawing 17 to see. This allows you to add an amount of length to the shoulder bone (A), which you can determine yourself in connection with the depth of the fold.
By now expanding the neck, at B, so much that C comes to lie on C1, so much fabric will be created at the bone A that this part of the body can now be covered without any tension.
This error also occurs quite often with dresses and blouses made of cotton or silk fabrics. At first glance one could argue that our view cannot be implemented for these substances, which are difficult to stretch.
Our opinion is that this is not too bad, because the tissue is slightly slanted and only a little stretching is required to achieve the intended goal.
Finally, one more comment.
It often turns out not to be necessary for the shoulder seam at the shoulder top E to be smoothed out. The necessary length over the shoulder is still present. This is then located as an excess behind the arm and is moved to the front of the shoulder by the action described above. With the distortion, the shoulder seam in this case runs from the new neck point C to the existing shoulder point.
I have forward shoulders myself. For a good fit I have to shift the armhole a bit to the front(larger back width, smaller chest width).
To get the back armhole close,I need a shoulder/armhole dart and I have to move the shoulder seam forward at the armhole to get it in the right spot.
When the armhole is done, I recently had the best results for the sleeve using the Hofenbitzer method. (No alterations needed, Yippie 🥳) The resulting sleeve had the pitch point more to the front, thus a much steeper front and shallower back crown line. Maybe this could help for you also.
Hi Peterle,
Thanks for your mail. This is what I thought too, but maybe it is not the problem. I shifted the armhole 0.5 cm into front. I take the Hofenbitzer sleeve too, which you draft after the exact measurements.
I looked this days in my tailor bible and found a pic showing my folds. But I already have rotated. Now I found another pic there. I think I have done not enough for my hanging shoulder too. That may correct some of the Asymmetry. It is so difficult to fit myself.
I will see
Lg
Posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/sMwH0fqW/3597-CBA8-81-E7-4-E65-BE33-704-EB98-CD891.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMwH0fqW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Chtv8rW/F5530-DD8-849-F-452-C-8903-8524-C2-DD74-B6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7Chtv8rW)
Hi Posaune,
this may not be the answer to your question, but could you tell me the name of your "tailor bible"?
I also use the Hofenbitzer books and find them very conventient, but I am still looking for good resources to help me with tailoring menswear.
Hope you have recovered well :)
Wishing you the best 🍀🍀🍀
Hi Insa - ana,
Thanks for wishing me well.
It is Willi leibold: Das Schneiderhandwerk. He was a well known Mastertailor in Frankfurt am Main. It is from the 50 er (I think ). The content is about all what was needed to be a successful tailor. Very detailed. The fitting pages are excellent. In the net you find sometimes examples from his book. I know Hofenbitzer too. He gave the tailoring for ladies new aspects, starting from Mueller and son. I like his work a lot. Very clear in the construction. He has now Unisex patterns too.
Leibold is a craftsman through and through - that is a difference in my eyes.
Lg
Posaune
There is an inexpensive 150 euro edition of Das Schneiderhandwerk 1936 on booklooker.de.
Sadly it is Fractur font. I myself will not attempt that. :(
Otherwise they are Very expensive.
I am very shocked about the price, Graham. I got mine for 30 € I think. But it must be a later edition. I will have a look, when I am home.
Lg posaune
And looking at the adds - mine Is post war - no nazi uniforms so 50 er years is correct.
"no nazi uniforms". My quest for Butterick pattern 695, "Adolf Pants!", continues.
I have the 30's edition of the Leibold. Good book but printed in gothic german.
Dificult to read and 150 euros is far to expensive. I got my edition for 20 or 30 euros
It doesn't take long for a few interested people buying such a book to push the alogorithm up, up, up.
I saw that 20 years ago buying antique medical texts.
I bought my books also about 20 years ago. But since tailoring gained interest prices have risen skyhigh.
I think not the gaining of tailoring is the reason, I think it is the lack of tailoring knowledge nowadays. Very much of knowledge vanished when the trade nearly died. If you are interested in a thoroughly knowledge you buy the old books.
But the old masters worked with other materials as we have today. So adaption is required.
Lg
Posaune
In my youth we had a lady coming to our home once or twice for some days in the year to sew seasons clothing for us children and our mother. She was wonderful - good Patternmaker, perfect sewer and good fitter. And a good story teller. My father went to a tailor. Our village had 3 ladies and 1 tailor for men.
That is a nice write up about the better days of crafts people, Posaune. Mass-produced is so limited. Custom made has so many opportunities and better fit. Old paintings don't show any garments quite the same. The same style or fashion, but every garment is a different variation. Even old photos can show the same style or fashion, but everyone of them different. Each can be unique. Furniture, custom is so nice. The assembly line doesn't exist. Each part beautifully made. And made to last, becoming an antique.
Mass-production couldn't possibly do this, and the photos show it.
As a small boy mom was making a blouse. I was looking at the sleeve pattern, it was store bought, mom said that a tailors pattern is plain and simple. Details are added on the cloth. Style and fashion details are added to the cloth. Extentions are not part of the pattern, because there are different reasons to do it different. Like adding cuffs, gauntlets, etc. The top of the sleeve can be made to go over the shoulder different places to an extended shoulder and the sleeve dropping down from there. I was asking her about thinking with words or pictures. Words are most used for communicating to people. Picture thinking is very good for designing, navigation, etc. (no words necessary). Mass-production doesn't do this individually.
I love seeing custom clothes. The customer and tailors imagination, instead of Mass-produced sameness.
Mass-produced is prison.
Custom is freedom!
Quote from: posaune on March 21, 2024, 04:11:00 PMI am very shocked about the price, Graham. I got mine for 30 € I think. But it must be a later edition. I will have a look, when I am home.
Lg posaune
And looking at the adds - mine Is post war - no nazi uniforms so 50 er years is correct.
I am selling a lot of high sought tailor books for tripple prices now and they sell slowly now. But when I posted them here for cheap, you despised them. It doesn't pay out to be cheap and stingy today.
You can find my books in eBay and I have raised prices again and will continue to rise the price with the inflation.
I just remembered the Book "Das moderne Schneidergewerbe", 1920, von C.H. Budde. It is the first value of the three editions. The 2nd and 3rd edition were from Willi Leibold.
Very scarce book. The problem is one is in original covers and the other one, someone has rebound in the 70thies maybe. So it is not looking like the vintage one and I can sell it cheaper. The original, I won't sell, since it belongs to my vast Tailor book collection. The rebound one still has all the original pages inside looking pretty good, better than my original. Someone must has used the book a lot and later rebinded. The book's content ist the same like the ones of Willi Leibold.
Tailoring is an expensive trade now. 2010 I bought a vast majority of books all over the internet, when you were counting the pennies, I spend them so nicely. Today, all those resources are gone.
Thank you very much for your reply, Posaune!
I am also shocked about the price, 150,- € are way too much for me.
Fractur font wouldn't be a problem.
During my educution I learned patterndrafting following the system of Müller und Sohn.
I want to further enhance my fitting skills now.
Quote from: insa-ana on March 27, 2024, 01:25:28 AMThank you very much for your reply, Posaune!
I am also shocked about the price, 150,- € are way too much for me.
insa-ana keep your eye on www.booklooker.de, www.abebooks.com, or www.zvab.com
I think they are all owned by amazon now, but they seem to retain their original intentions, and unlike amazon they ship internationally. booklooker may not always ship international though.
Thank you, Schneiderfrei!
These three links are the ones I most frequently use for research.
Medimops ends up to be my most favourite resource, but they rarely have such historical items.
As I live in Austria, shipment from Germany is usually no problem.