Hello all,
Excited to have found this forum, though it's encouraged my analysis paralysis disposition ::)
I've been working off an existing (older one I created) pant draft for awhile and still struggling with the fit. I'm thinking at this point I may be better off starting from scratch.
I'm looking to create a more relaxed fit, with a fair amount of ease around the seat and a slightly fuller, tapered leg, but not sloppy/just big. Probably considered a 40's or 50's fit, but with a medium rise, rather than high.
I've searched through the forums a fair amount and have seen the below books recommended and have ordered.
Don Mccun, Hofenbitzer, Jungclaus
I've seen Paulin's draft noted and have the book, but reading through, it's based on 4 measurements that are taken over an existing garment, so a little leery on the accuracy.
I have Aldrich's book which I've drafted from a long time ago, but don't remember it being particularly great though neither is my memory.
I also have a couple of the newer books- Kershaw and a couple others that are more modern.
I'm wondering if there is a draft or book, specifically the trouser draft, that would be ideal to begin with. One that is not too antique, but not super modern either.
My thought is I'll probably try Mccun's and Jungclaus'.
Understand from reading that the draft is only a rough starting point, but hoping to start closer to the finish.
Thanks!
I learned drafting after Mueller and son and for ladies. Later I started sewing for my husband and took too the Müller Method. The Mueller Books Are very expensive and when Sven Jungclaus released his books I bought them all. And I like them. Hofenbitzer was reasonable priced too. I like the layout in his books - many good drawings. At the beginning he was Close to Mueller's Methode but in the 2. edition he separates a bit. And he took up besides the ladies drafting drafting for Unisex (sportswear) with elastic fabric (knits). I have tested Aldrich for trousers and some other German and Italien drafts but in the end I stay with Mueller. Maybe because it was my first connection and I know what I must alter to get the Results I like.
Lg Posaune
I do hope that you let us participate on your work
thank you! Yes, I held off on the Mueller book partly because of price and probably because I didn't see it on Amazon. I think I also read it can be a little complicated. Anyhow, I'm going to add it to my list.
And, yes I will post my results once I get a draft or 2 done. I'm keen to develop a better understanding of the front and back rise shapes and how to control the fabric around them.
The Sven Jungclaus are very good and not to expensive.
One thing to consider is what is your postural type?
If you have a swayed back or any amout of belly projection you wont get a good result from a normal proportion draft.
how'd you guess my posture ???
I have a little of both of those. I will keep this in mind. Any advice on correcting the pattern for a swayed back?
I will start with the basic draft and add 1" seam allowance to allow for adjusting.
Basically it involves adding a moderate amount to the centre front crotch/schritt to accommodate the extra length supplies by the belly.
Mueller drafts have a little formula for this, as you can imagine:
Besides the normal calculations the so called Übermaß (waist surplus) must be determined, an amount
that will be added to the (CF) and to the waistband.
Deduct an amount of 12 cm from the hip girth. The result is th ,,Normal Waistband Girth", that in turn is subtracted from the measured waist circumference and thus gives the Waist Surplus (Übermaß).
Calculation of the Übermaßes (waist surplus) ÜM:
Hu Hip circumference 132,0 cm
./.12,0 cm = fixed amount
NBdu normal waist circumference = 120,0 cm
Bdu waist circumference 130,0 cm
NBdu normal waist circumference ./.120,0 cm
ÜM waist surplus = 10,0 cm
2/10 DM = 2,0 cm
(https://i.postimg.cc/r0pzYzdN/Abb-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0pzYzdN)
G
Quote from: Bifurcator on February 21, 2024, 12:51:31 PMhow'd you guess my posture ???
Desk job? Welcome to the club :D I started physical therapy to deal with this recently as I was getting very susceptible to lower back pain.
Quote from: DrLang on February 21, 2024, 09:48:55 PMQuote from: Bifurcator on February 21, 2024, 12:51:31 PMhow'd you guess my posture ???
started physical therapy... t lower back pain.
Yoga and weight loss best methods. Works ever' time, saves money, and fits in your pocket.
https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&qwork=27834580
Used to buy them, give them away. Everybody has copy now, ha ha!
Quote from: Bifurcator on February 21, 2024, 12:51:31 PMhow'd you guess my posture ???
My day job is a Physiotherapist.
But seriously, A lot of people have this kind of posture, including myself. ;)
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on February 21, 2024, 06:13:20 PMMueller drafts have a little formula for this, as you can imagine:
Thanks for sharing this! I think I need to add this book to my library. Seems like a good reference to have.
Yeah, my aunt took me took her physical therapist when I was a teen for kicks and one of the first things he said was I had a sway back >:( so I guess I've gotten my "second opinion" now
Quote from: Steelmillal on February 22, 2024, 05:20:44 AMQuote from: DrLang on February 21, 2024, 09:48:55 PMQuote from: Bifurcator on February 21, 2024, 12:51:31 PMhow'd you guess my posture ???
started physical therapy... t lower back pain.
Yoga and weight loss best methods. Works ever' time, saves money, and fits in your pocket.
https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&qwork=27834580
Used to buy them, give them away. Everybody has copy now, ha ha!
Weight isn't really a problem in my situation. The physical therapy was just a short round to get me on a self-work program that will address the issue. Basically strengthening the core and stretching the tight areas. Probably way cheaper than a yoga instructor in the long term!
Full disclosure - I did not refer to any images of yourself at all.
It was just a comment about the necessity of consideration of posture, and the so called corpultent draft is the most common one.
Technically, a corpulent silhouette has a waist measure that is in excess of the chest measure. The sway back - Holkreutz uses the same formula to accommodate the front projection, regardless of the waist measurement.
A corpulent draft is used when your belly point sits before the bust point. With a sway back you press your belly into front. (To see if it is necessary Pictures of Sideview from whole body standing besides a doorframe are helpful). So the front pattern must have more room (like a corpulent draft).
Lg
Posaune
In case I have not rendered the table above completely correctly, here is the original image:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vdb0Ltx6/Berechnung-des-Uebermasses.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vdb0Ltx6)
And here is where it sits in the draft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3RR5SBk/Um-in-the-Draft.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3RR5SBk)
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on February 22, 2024, 12:00:59 PMFull disclosure - I did not refer to any images of yourself at all.
:D
Quote from: posaune on February 22, 2024, 08:22:33 PMA corpulent draft is used when your belly point sits before the bust point. With a sway back you press your belly into front. (To see if it is necessary Pictures of Sideview from whole body standing besides a doorframe are helpful). So the front pattern must have more room (like a corpulent draft).
Lg
Posaune
Yes, I actually need to do this for my own knowled too so I can better understand my posture and imbalances. I've just realized I have one hip higher than the other. I noticed my left leg grainline angling to the outside of my foot and no matter what I did I couldn't fix it. I believe it's because of this high hip.
I don't have a corpulent figure, but as you pointed my belly pushes to the front I think due to a sway back. It's kind of a reversed "S" shape. I do prefer to wear my pants a little lower at the front and slightly higher at the back.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on February 22, 2024, 11:59:12 PMIn case I have not rendered the table above completely correctly, here is the original image:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vdb0Ltx6/Berechnung-des-Uebermasses.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vdb0Ltx6)
And here is where it sits in the draft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3RR5SBk/Um-in-the-Draft.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3RR5SBk)
thank you!
Once I get some drafts going I will come back to post my results.
Quote from: DrLang on February 22, 2024, 10:48:58 AMWeight isn't really a problem in my situation.
book way cheaper than a yoga instructor in the long term :) His falling off cliff story worth price of admission. some very advanced postures farther into the book. Weight loss comes with practice/territory. Messes up jackets fits I wear every time I do it for a while, but I go up in size v. down.
Poulin's book has at the very end of the trousers chapter a little bit about fitting.
Chiming in as a fellow novice. I got the McCunn book but did not find it all that helpful. I couldn't get much out of the book when it came time to try on the muslin and make adjustments based on what I was seeing. Perhaps I'll revisit the book in the future and things will click, but not yet.
My growing sense is having a starting pattern is one thing, but then understanding how to make the modifications is another. Ideally your starting pattern gets you very close, but let's assume it doesn't, do you know how to get it the rest of the way through modifications. I haven't found a single resource that appears to cover it, for pants at least, comprehensively so I just collect bits from multiple resources. The Alteration of Men's Clothing book by David Carlin has some good advice (recommended to me on this forum), and there's lots to be found in these books in their sections on alterations: https://www.cuttersguide.com/galleries/pattern-guides-male/ (again recommended to me on this forum).
Plus, I was just fortunate enough to be able to find someone locally who can teach me this stuff in person, that has been very helpful. She emphasizes the importance of clean lines and curves, being very deliberate about your measurements, effectively transferring modifications to your muslin back to your pattern, lots of record keeping of what you've done and why, etc. I have found it's very easy for seemingly small problems or mistakes to compound, so this emphasis on tightening up my work has certainly helped me early on, setting aside the actual approach or methodology I may be following.
Thanks for the tips and feedback.
I did try Mccunn's draft as well and it came out kind of odd shaped. I did find his instructions clear and simple, but if felt maybe a little too simplistic.
These are all the drafts I tried:
Aldrich (2 fits)
Hofenbitzer
Jungclaus
Mccun
Mitchell System
MTOC
Muller (2 sizes)
Paulin
Rundschau
Thorton
The Muller one got me pretty close, I think. The instructions are a little confusing at points as it's translated and not always edited well. I had to add 1 3/4" to the rise height, because I think their draft accounts for a waistband, but I'm not quite sure. As is the rise would have been way too short. Unless you want a slim fit don't bother with their Trouser specific book, I was pretty disappointed with it.
The Aldrich draft was actually decent. The Rundschau (found on this forum) was promising, but I think I started with measurements that were too small, so hard to tell.
To your point though it's fairly straightforward to follow instructions on plotting points and connecting the dots. The hard part is figuring out how to manipulate the pattern to fit how you want. Like you, I've struggled to find a good resource for pattern correction directions. I think Carlin's book is good to get an idea of what could be wrong with the pattern, but it's also coming from an alterations POV, so it seems a little limited
This book has ALOT of information on fitting, but I haven't found it particularly helpful: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/fitting-and-pattern-alteration-a-multi-method-approach-to-the-art-of-style-selection-fitting-and-alteration_judith-rasband_elizabeth-liechty/38363404/item/55841509/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pmax_new_books&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImpPe_OjPhQMVgEpHAR0PqgJuEAQYASABEgJ0IvD_BwE#idiq=55841509&edition=66303719
This book has a few pages that seem promising, but I got a little lost in the descriptions. It's also coming from an alterations POV:
https://www.cuttersguide.com/pdf/Pattern-Guides-Male/practical-instruction-how-to-alter-ill-fitting-garments.pdf
I also found a book called "Cutter's Practical Guide to Fit" by Thickett that has a few promising pages. I think you can find it on archive.org
I'm horrible at record keeping and also tend to make multiple changes at once. Both things I need to work on getting better at. Thanks for the tips!
Hi Bifurcator,
I'm not sure what your experience is, so I'm just going to say: The purpose of the draft is certainly not to get a perfect fit. It is simply a way of getting as close as possible in order to waste as little as possible cloth and time.
Custom computer software may be better, but paper drafts will always need final on-body fitting. So they require a toile or muslin or model, depending on your language. All fitting alterations are recorded on the draft.
THEN a cutting pattern is made from the draft + alterations, that is of sturdier/heavier card, and it includes all seams and inlays and allowances for a specific garment. In that way the pattern yeilds pieces of stuff that are ready for sewing up.
If you record your or a client's variations from the proportional draft, it is then very easy to draw them into a new draft/pattern, they don't change much, and variations due to weight gain/loss are limited to horizontal measurements, generally.
I think for a bodice, a waistcoat is a perfect garment to discover a true fit. because the draft is itself drawn to very close dimensions.
Thank you for this overview. It makes sense. I'm fairly familiar with manufacturing, but less so the tailoring and bespoke process'. Appreciate it👍