Moving on to a matching waistcoat for my linen trousers. Because I have a distinct pot belly, this time I decided to draft a pattern from the Rundschau belly waistcoat draft that was posted here:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=281.0
I've through quite a few adjustments and I think I'm now stuck.
Some thoughts:
It's quite pointy in front, but I assume that's mostly a style thing that I can modify. Trying it on with the linen trousers, I want to make it 1-1.5 inches longer in the back. The bottom of center front is about perfect. I think that will have a significant affect on the shape of the bottom in the front to my liking.
My right shoulder is sloped. Right now I have it adjusted at the top, but I think the right side is still collapsing. I understand that a better way to fix this is in the cut. I have a copy of Cabrera and plan to try his method on the next one.
Problems:
I feel like the back in general leaves something to be desired. Too much easy, but every adjustment I have tried seems to make it worse, not better. Could this just be an issue of the toile fabric I used here being too lightweight to see what a final pass would actually look like?
I am reasonably happy with the front except for the part that just dangles at the bottom. I made the darts more aggressive and that helped a little, but what you see is what is left. The draft tries to deal with the larger belly by changing the angle of the center front below the waist line. My attempt was very subtle and I wonder if I should just make it turn inward a lot more. Or maybe add another smaller dart? I'm not really sure how closely a waistcoat should fit under the belly to give a nice silhouette.
(https://i.postimg.cc/w106kS2F/PXL-20231101-233414730.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w106kS2F)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bGrqV3FP/PXL-20231101-233422311.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bGrqV3FP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xkZnwMWz/PXL-20231101-233430261.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkZnwMWz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YGmMMjHy/PXL-20231101-233437464.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGmMMjHy)
Well DrLang, I think you have the wrong draft. How large is the difference between Waist and bust circ? The length: it should reach over the high hip in back. That is about ca. 8 cm under the waist. It looks a bit short and a bit undarted. Pin a dart in backarmhole to shoulderblade to get a cleaner finish.
And the front I would not do as long as is. When you sit down it could be wrinkling very much. And it takes all attention to a belly you do not have. In front you do only a second dart if your waist is about 8 cm more than bust.
Lg Posaune
Quote from: posaune on November 02, 2023, 08:30:31 PMWell DrLang, I think you have the wrong draft. How large is the difference between Waist and bust circ? The length: it should reach over the high hip in back. That is about ca. 8 cm under the waist. It looks a bit short and a bit undarted. Pin a dart in backarmhole to shoulderblade to get a cleaner finish.
And the front I would not do as long as is. When you sit down it could be wrinkling very much. And it takes all attention to a belly you do not have. In front you do only a second dart if your waist is about 8 cm more than bust.
Lg Posaune
I thought about trying the normal draft, and I almost drew it up last night. My waist and bust are identical, but all of the excess of my waist is in the front. You might think that I don't have a belly (thank you), but I assure you that it's very prominently distended when I'm not wearing a button up shirt.
That said, I would certainly be willing to try the other draft. I wanted to work this one out as far as I could first.
Another thought that I had was to start with a normally proportioned block pattern and adjust it per Whife's instructions for a pot belly here (Dia 71, Sect. 1). I noticed that they also favor a dart in the side instead of the bottom, which is not where they suggest the dart for a standard corpulent adjustment. It does seem to improve the front contour if I pin the sides of my toile a little bit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FYnGfgSb/Waistcoat-Block-Whife010.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FYnGfgSb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdJqnMKw/Waistcoat-Block-Whife011.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdJqnMKw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dhdDdJkW/Waistcoat-Block-Whife012.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhdDdJkW)
The first i see is, the waistcoat overlaps more at the Belly than at the chest line. Mark the exact overlap along the Front Edge, so you can Close it correctly. This is important for a correct fitting.
Second: when you look at the pattern instructions you will see, that the bottom dart will finally end as a side seam dart.So no need for a new pattern.
For the fit: I think your front balance is probably too short. This can result in an uneven overlap and forward swinging hem. For alteration shift the back parts 1,5 to 2 cm downwards in the side seams.
Transferring the chest and waist Line to the toile, helps to analyze fitting issues
One more thing: the pattern instructions don t mention the back collar stand you need. The 1,5cm from H1 to h1 attach to the back collar stand wich ist 1,5 cm wide and as long as the back neckline. This piece is usually made from front fabric.
Quote from: peterle on November 03, 2023, 08:55:37 AMThe first i see is, the waistcoat overlaps more at the Belly than at the chest line. Mark the exact overlap along the Front Edge, so you can Close it correctly. This is important for a correct fitting.
This is so obvious that I am surprised that I missed it. That makes a lot more sense than what I was trying to do.
Quote from: peterle on November 03, 2023, 08:55:37 AMSecond: when you look at the pattern instructions you will see, that the bottom dart will finally end as a side seam dart.So no need for a new pattern.
I'm not sure that I understand this. Do you mean that for the final cut, the dart is moved from near the front all the way to the side seam to hide it? I didn't see this in the translation someone posted here, but I don't have the original either.
Quote from: peterle on November 03, 2023, 08:55:37 AMFor the fit: I think your front balance is probably too short. This can result in an uneven overlap and forward swinging hem. For alteration shift the back parts 1,5 to 2 cm downwards in the side seams.
Transferring the chest and waist Line to the toile, helps to analyze fitting issues
I will try to transfer those lines for the next photos. I have added horizontal darts, which seems to help quite a bit, but also really moves the waist line. I will walk backwards and try to move the back down as you suggest.
That reminds me of a question I had. I notice that the draft adds 1 cm more to the bottom of back part compared to the front part. Why is this?
Quote from: peterle on November 03, 2023, 09:15:46 AMOne more thing: the pattern instructions don t mention the back collar stand you need. The 1,5cm from H1 to h1 attach to the back collar stand wich ist 1,5 cm wide and as long as the back neckline. This piece is usually made from front fabric.
I was aware of that. I planned to not worry about it until I dealt with the pattern adjustments first. Is this a bad idea? I can include it in the next toile.
I've been busy this evening.
Here I did my best to add in the waist and bust lines as peterle suggested. The front is getting a little bit messy, but the thick blue line is the waist from the pattern and the red line is the new waist if I add the side dart. They were correct, the front was off balance. I moved the backs to line up the waist line and it made a little bit of improvement in the front and a big improvement in the back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdV8MMRv/PXL-20231103-222303899.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdV8MMRv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/McKYLqK3/PXL-20231103-222313419.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/McKYLqK3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/68h0zywG/PXL-20231103-222322187.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68h0zywG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ty7cMFKd/PXL-20231103-222331575.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ty7cMFKd)
Here I tried to add the side dart back in. I am surprised, it did not make as much difference as I expected.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BPD5FvMb/PXL-20231103-231411836.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BPD5FvMb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6TGfgHtK/PXL-20231103-231419519.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6TGfgHtK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zVZFrnGg/PXL-20231103-231429809.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zVZFrnGg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dL2mtLhS/PXL-20231103-231435935.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dL2mtLhS)
Here I pinned small darts in the back arm hole as posaune suggested. This looks much cleaner to me, though it does cause some problems in the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdWnPphx/PXL-20231103-232024474.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdWnPphx)
And here I am playing around with the length and shape in the bottom front. This starts to look like a good shape to me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JHm0T4RG/PXL-20231103-232436104.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHm0T4RG)
I'm not sure that I understand this. Do you mean that for the final cut, the dart is moved from near the front all the way to the side seam to hide it? I didn't see this in the translation someone posted here, but I don't have the original either.
The text and the last pic show how to move the bottom dart to the side by slahing and pinching. the dart dissappears in the pocket seam.
I was aware of that. I planned to not worry about it until I dealt with the pattern adjustments first. Is this a bad idea? I can include it in the next toile.
[/quote]
You shouldn´t skip the strip for the fitting. The neckhole is essential for a good fit, especially in this vintage patterns with their tight neckholes.
It´s especially important to join fronts and back right at the shoulder seams. In your latest pics I see your back neckhole is pulled upwards on the shirt collar. To join the parts accordingly, add the 1,5cm strip to the back neckhole and sew front and back together from tip to tip. The surplus 1 cm of the back shoulder seam has to be eased in.
For the pics: I think there is an improvement in balance, but probably the front balance is not yet long enough. Redo the shoulders first and we will see. Skip the armhole darts in the back.
I took one more stab at a toile with this pattern and gave up. I think I am fighting with a cut that's just not quite right.
I redrafted following the Rundschau draft for standard proportions and made a few subtle changes to accommodate my belly.
I feel like this is getting closer to what I am after, but I'm starting to spin in circles again. The best I can come up with at this point is that the sides probably need to be let out a little bit more. And then there is the low right shoulder that I did not try to correct for in this cut. The armscye in the front doesn't quite look right to me either, but I'm not sure if that will go away once the seam allowance is gone.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4Y7CZBdf/PXL-20231118-011131669.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4Y7CZBdf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bZK7vkDQ/PXL-20231118-011139670.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZK7vkDQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/r0T71T9s/PXL-20231118-011155224.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0T71T9s)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ff32kz3w/PXL-20231118-011201458.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ff32kz3w)
DrLang, sadly that is an old fashioned draft, that we put up for historical purposes.
A modern draft will calculate the requirement for the dart at the verticle line in the draft, but the angle is tranfered across to the side seam and drawn in 90 degrees anticlockwise, (for the left side).
The dart then forms the opening for the pocket. It is a sort of proto-side body.
I do feel that you could increase the angle in your shown toile, It just lacks Schluss. It sticks out too much still.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on November 18, 2023, 03:28:39 PMDrLang, sadly that is an old fashioned draft, that we put up for historical purposes.
A modern draft will calculate the requirement for the dart at the verticle line in the draft, but the angle is tranfered across to the side seam and drawn in 90 degrees anticlockwise, (for the left side).
The dart then forms the opening for the pocket. It is a sort of proto-side body.
I do feel that you could increase the angle in your shown toile, It just lacks Schluss. It sticks out too much still.
Most of the dart is on the side where the pocket will go as you suggested (visible in the side photos). The vertical dart is there by Whife's suggestion, though with such a subtle disproportion, maybe I can put all of it in the side seam.
I appreciate the feedback about increasing the angle on the dart. I thought about it, but was concerned it would be too much. I should have some time today to make some adjustments.
A couple of thoughts.
Firstly it looks like you have sloping shoulders in general, so I would make a basic adjustment from the standard draft to adjust the slope and that adjustment would drop the armscye too. You could adjust a bit more for the dropped side.
Once that is done, look at the run of the front armscye line, true up the line by putting the new shoulder lines together and redrawing the armhole. You can do this on the pattern or chalk this on the garment in a fitting stage.
I think darts in the back are useful for a clean look.
It is useful to accommodate a split in the side seam below the waist to allow the hem edge at the sides to splay open.
Some body types need a side seam that does not have any waist suppression. You might try letting the sides out and see what happens with the drag lines that run from chest towards the sides.
There is still too much « air » in the front below the waist.
It is difficult to find a good visual balance in regards to the profile view.
You can pinch more in a vertical dart to reduce the air space, until it gives you the profile desired. Too much and the belly is accentuated even more. Deciding where the bottom edge of the front points are is tricky.
The drafts are a mere starting point as you are finding out, knowing how a draft works and being able to manipulate it for individual shape is challenging.
Ha! For the first time on this project I feel like I am finally on the right track.
Here I added back darts. I don't know why I left these out of this last toile, but they clearly made a big difference.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jL68LS75/PXL-20231118-183834780.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jL68LS75)
And here I altered the shoulders for sloped shoulders. Also a big improvement. Note that I made the same alteration on both sides. I have not attempted to correct for the low shoulder yet. Unless you guys think that there is a critical flaw in this plan, I intend to measure the needed correction at the end and make one last toile with the cut for the right altered for a low shoulder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bdkgBwLT/PXL-20231118-211346392.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bdkgBwLT)
And then I played around more with the darts in the front. I feel like this is finally starting to take shape.
The front armscye looks like it could be scooped out a little more at the bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B825whBv/PXL-20231119-195727937.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B825whBv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bDTxqsMc/PXL-20231119-195737026.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDTxqsMc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7JZghq8C/PXL-20231119-195744601.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7JZghq8C)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KkF7Xn0D/PXL-20231119-195751009.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KkF7Xn0D)
Quote from: TTailor on November 19, 2023, 03:29:14 AMIt is useful to accommodate a split in the side seam below the waist to allow the hem edge at the sides to splay open.
Some body types need a side seam that does not have any waist suppression. You might try letting the sides out and see what happens with the drag lines that run from chest towards the sides.
There is already zero waist suppression in the side seams on this. I am a little interested in your suggestion to have a split below the waist in the side seams. I don't think that I have ever noticed this before in other vests, but I could see the advantage in some cases.
Peterle said to add length to the front shoulder. This would drop the armhole down to a better position. And the front is a bit short now.
I think the shape of the front armhole could be better and the bottom of the armhole should/could be lowered the same amount as the drop for the sloping shoulder.
IMO I think the front is ok for length, and the balance seems pretty good at least from the photos.
I lowered the bottom of the arm hole and tried to make the shape at the front a little better. I have to keep in mind that there is 1/4" seam allowance here that will disappear when constructed.
I wonder if I shouldn't slope the shoulder on the fronts just a little bit more. The fabric is buckling a little bit at the front arm hole.
I tried to add a little bit of waist suppression back in here. I think that it was a mistake.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LYscBTs0/PXL-20231121-001622541.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LYscBTs0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1YtYD8Y/PXL-20231121-001643179.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1YtYD8Y)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xJFWszJj/PXL-20231121-001651407.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJFWszJj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CnB99xkG/PXL-20231121-001657583.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CnB99xkG)
Some books written by tailors tell how and where to put inlays. If a seam is in the wrong place you can move the seam to a better place because you added cloth there for the purpose to find the best for that seam.
Another consideration is, do the fronts hang parallel when unfastened? This adjustment is made at the shoulder. Inlays are handy here. Sliding up or down on the side seam might work best. Without inlays you have to start with new cloth, and that gets expensive.
Inlays at shoulder width in case you want to move the pattern laterally (straightening, or crooked).
Books to look at about some of this is Clarence Poulin.
Hostek coat book has some good fitting advice.
When dealing with curves and seam allowances and inlays for certain parts of the fittings they can be lightly pressed on a tailors ham. Changes can easily be made.
Can anyone here refer me to methods to correct for a low shoulder? I was planning to follow Cabrera's method, but as I was cutting my next toile, I realized that this would pose problems for fabric with a pattern. So now I'm looking for good alternatives to this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FYnt7LzT/PXL-20231124-215138022.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FYnt7LzT)
Simple version
Drop a vertical construction line through mid shoulder front and back.
Draw in a horizontal construction line parallel to chest line, two inches below armhole level
Decide how much you need to drop the shoulder, say .75cm draw in another horizontal below the previous line.
Cut vertically and along the horizontal and shift the sections down.
You will have a jog at the shoulder and need to redraw/ true up shoulder lines.
Put shoulder lines together as they will be sewn and correct/true up redraw the armhole line
If you look in Poulin's book pages 101-3 he shows a method.
Quote from: TTailor on November 26, 2023, 12:14:47 AMSimple version
Drop a vertical construction line through mid shoulder front and back.
Draw in a horizontal construction line parallel to chest line, two inches below armhole level
Decide how much you need to drop the shoulder, say .75cm draw in another horizontal below the previous line.
Cut vertically and along the horizontal and shift the sections down.
You will have a jog at the shoulder and need to redraw/ true up shoulder lines.
Put shoulder lines together as they will be sewn and correct/true up redraw the armhole line
This makes sense, thank you. Something like this was going to be my fall back plan.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xJ0X67sR/PXL-20231125-184925105.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJ0X67sR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t1zTnkXV/PXL-20231125-185738635.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t1zTnkXV)
Ugh, I hate to even ask for feedback on this, but there's no other way to get better than showing my efforts. At least I think that I can live with this for what it is, a casual summer suit.
The front might not be correctly aligned. Needs buttons.
The bottom pockets need to come way forward. It was way too late to fix by the time I noticed. I am afraid of how this will affect the side dart. Hiding the dart in the pocket is interesting, but a little bit challenging.
The shoulders are bunching up at my neck. I hope that this can be resolved by letting out the collar stand in the middle. I didn't leave enough to let it out more than maybe 1/2".
There is a lot of excess fabric in the back. I can take the back in a bit, but I'm not sure how well that will work.
I would like the bottom front to pull in just a little bit more, and I that in the future this can be accomplished by putting more tension here on the tape that I laid in along the front.
At least I am happy with the shape and length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PLBSHnTK/PXL-20231212-013722008.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PLBSHnTK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/phzqXcdv/PXL-20231212-013728289.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phzqXcdv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/64Kz7V7v/PXL-20231212-013736726.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64Kz7V7v)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cn47bZD6/PXL-20231212-013743094.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn47bZD6)
Also, a couple questions about notions. I used two different tapes for this waistcoat. A 1 cm wide twill tape for the front and 5 mm tape for the arm holes. The 1 cm twill tape seems to be almost twice as thick and I can easily feel it through the fabric. Is this probably too thick? The 5 mm tape is barely noticeable even by feel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3d8H2DVX/PXL-20231212-020831342.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3d8H2DVX)
Also, I grabbed some dirt cheap corozo buttons from China tagging it onto some other order. Looking at these, the holes are laughably small. Even my nice shirt buttons have holes bigger than this. Are these usable at all? Or best sent to the waste bin? Corozo buttons on question on the right and some other buttons on the left for comparison.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZCd6FCNq/PXL-20231212-021122379.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZCd6FCNq)
Quote from: DrLang on December 12, 2023, 01:28:17 PMAlso, I grabbed some dirt cheap corozo buttons from China tagging it onto some other order. Looking at these, the holes are laughably small. Even my nice shirt buttons have holes bigger than this. Are these usable at all? Or best sent to the waste bin? Corozo buttons on question on the right and some other buttons on the left for comparison.
Just use a smaller/narrower needle for the buttons. Test one button on a bit of scrap. If you can get a few loops through with the twist/thread you use, they'll work. Obviously silk buttonhole thread is nice and strong, but if it's too thick consider thinner, machine embroidery thread (Gutermann 30 wt 'sulky' cotton for example).
You can also make your own button twist from regular cotton or silk thread (there are one or two methods on youtube), which might result in thinner thread than you have. I've stopped doing this, but you can loop thread through the hole of a bobbin and use the winder on your machine to make twist. Quoted directly from my notes (might not make much sense to an outsider, but still):
Make button twist with a full, outstretched arms' length of thread. Snap thread before cutting to re-tension it. Thread one end through hole in bobbin to form loop. Thread both ends through size 6 needle using a threader and tie together. Hold knot while twisting thread on the bobbin winder (go slowly). When tight beads are formed, remove at arm's length and place on ironing board. Maintaining grip on the knot, slide pin to middle of the twist, secure it in the board facing away. Gather both ends and twist a few turns in same direction as the bobbin was wound. Cut free bobbin. Twist remaining thread by hand. When done, hold twist by its end and suspend the needle. Stroke thread gently downwards, between thumb and finger, twice. Knot end and wax.The key is to hold the thread under tension, but not taut, otherwise it breaks at the bobbin. It's a quick way to make twist, but it's even quicker to use some embroidery thread or silk twist (if you become lazy like me). :)
Tape: the aim is a crispy but as thin as possible front edge. the twill tape is too thick I think, the other one would be sufficient. Instead of adding an extra facing you could cut on the facing and bend it in.
front edge: I think there went something wrong in drawing the front edge. The amount from point U towards the edge is much too wide. this should only be the button stand (overlap) width. This is most probably the problem of your pattern. Please recheck following the instructions carefully.
Hem dart: I would skip the the hem dart. It creates a barrel shape wich even pronounces the belly. (BTW how did you create the horizontal dart? it is usually created by folding the hem dart close and thus opening the slash along the pocket line.)
shoulder neck: the neck shoulder area of the linnen version is not clean. the shoulder ripples and the neck band is rising much too high on the shirt collar/neck. this was no porblem in the dark version, so the error lies between the versions. Maybe you overdid the shoulder alteration. Estimating I think 1-1,5cm for the dropped right shoulder should be sufficiant. Also cutting on the neckband to the front can cause a lot of problems( wrong angle, tight SAs, wrong clipping of the SAs ecc) I always cut it as an extra piece. open the shoulder seams (keeping the neckband) and look what happens. I´m sure they will gape towards the armhole.
The pattern instructions don´t mention the ironwork for waistcoats: Stretch the top 10-12cm of the front edge before installing the edge tape. this allows the waistcoat to follow the concave form of the body in this area.
Thread run: the thread run should be parallel to the construction line At-H of the pattern. This is important, not only for patterned cloth. yours is a bit slanted wich also pronounces the belly.
Thank you very much for your detailed feedback.
Quote from: peterle on December 15, 2023, 12:31:35 AMthe twill tape is too thick I think, the other one would be sufficient.
This was my feeling. I will toss the twill tape then.
Quote from: peterle on December 15, 2023, 12:31:35 AMfront edge: I think there went something wrong in drawing the front edge. The amount from point U towards the edge is much too wide. this should only be the button stand (overlap) width. This is most probably the problem of your pattern. Please recheck following the instructions carefully.
I am going to blame bad pinning for now at least. I have since added buttonholes and buttons to make sure alignment is consistent. I will post new photos after I take in the sides, and try to deal with the collar/shoulders.
Quote from: peterle on December 15, 2023, 12:31:35 AMHem dart: I would skip the the hem dart. It creates a barrel shape wich even pronounces the belly. (BTW how did you create the horizontal dart? it is usually created by folding the hem dart close and thus opening the slash along the pocket line.)
I really wish that I could find some photos demonstrating how this is done. I am afraid that there is a lot that can be missed in interpretation. I don't recall my exact order of operations, but I believe the affect was the same. I attached the welt and pocketing along the bottom of the dart, and only then closed the dart up to the welt. Slashing the dart then opens up the pocket at the same time. I don't think I would do it quite the same way again.
Quote from: peterle on December 15, 2023, 12:31:35 AMshoulder neck: the neck shoulder area of the linnen version is not clean. the shoulder ripples and the neck band is rising much too high on the shirt collar/neck. this was no porblem in the dark version, so the error lies between the versions. Maybe you overdid the shoulder alteration. Estimating I think 1-1,5cm for the dropped right shoulder should be sufficiant. Also cutting on the neckband to the front can cause a lot of problems( wrong angle, tight SAs, wrong clipping of the SAs ecc) I always cut it as an extra piece. open the shoulder seams (keeping the neckband) and look what happens. I´m sure they will gape towards the armhole.
This area is my single biggest concern. Not very visible in these photos, the backs are also bunching up a little bit at the collar. It looks to me like there is just not enough width in the neck. 1.5 cm is about exactly the correction that I applied for the dropped shoulder. There will be some very slight difference between the two in the adjustment I make for sloped shoulders, but I believe that it would be trivial. Maybe it wasn't though.
I did compare some measurements between the last version and this version when I saw the problem, but those were the same. I suppose that I should compare in more detail now.
There was no tape along the front edge in the dark toile. That is one very significant difference. I will take a closer look at the two and see if anything else sticks out.
Quote from: peterle on December 15, 2023, 12:31:35 AMThe pattern instructions don´t mention the ironwork for waistcoats: Stretch the top 10-12cm of the front edge before installing the edge tape. this allows the waistcoat to follow the concave form of the body in this area.
This is interesting. The construction guide that I followed had me applying tension to the tape along the front in this area. But what you are saying here makes sense. I will try to keep this in mind for next time.
Quote from: peterle on December 15, 2023, 12:31:35 AMThread run: the thread run should be parallel to the construction line At-H of the pattern. This is important, not only for patterned cloth. yours is a bit slanted wich also pronounces the belly.
As above, for now I am going to blame bad pinning for the photo. The thread was cut to be parallel with the front edge, which might be a little bit different than At-H, but should be very close. Any cutting deviation from that is purely a skill issue on my part.
QuoteThis was my feeling. I will toss the twill tape then.
If you can find India tape or tailor's tape that would be a better choice than twill tape. India tape is a cotton plain weave and is usually available in 1/4" 3/8" or 1/2 widths.
QuoteI really wish that I could find some photos demonstrating how this is done. I am afraid that there is a lot that can be missed in interpretation. I don't recall my exact order of operations, but I believe the affect was the same. I attached the welt and pocketing along the bottom of the dart, and only then closed the dart up to the welt. Slashing the dart then opens up the pocket at the same time. I don't think I would do it quite the same way again.
First, the angle of your lower pockets could be better. They are slanting upwards.
Second, the lower edge of the welt should be sewn 1/4" below horizontal dart at the waist. The dart itself become the cut line when making the welt pocket.
I will make a diagram about the rotation of the small dart from the hem to the horizontal waist dart.
I made quite a number of alterations here. Unfortunately I did not keep photos on the affect of each one. So here are my observations.
It seems that over compensating for the sloped shoulders was definitely a major part of the problem. When I opened up the shoulders by about half an inch, the majority of the bunching at the shoulder line disappeared.
I then let out about 1/2" or a little more at the back of the collar and re-adjusted the tops of the back. In the last photo you can kind of see how it was before all of the alterations and gives you an idea of where everything went. I'm still not happy with the back right, but even that is much better. I would like to let out a little bit more towards the arm, but I am starting to run out of inlay to do more than maybe 3 mm.
I have taken in the sides so much more than I ever thought that I would. This was a complete and total miss with my toile. It is so much that I wish the darts were a little more to the CB and I am a little bit concerned about the front now being grossly out of balance, but I honestly can't see the problem.
Everything should probably get another press. The eternal struggle with linen.
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It feels like the front needs a little bit more length like a small quarter, only a smidge. As someone asked earlier, I think it was Greger, how do the fronts hang when unbuttoned? You have a fairly hollow back which creates unnecessary length and width at your back waist. Yes, the back darts need to be further round to the CB. I also think you could move your back notches up a tad thus passing the back down a bit to lose the extra length in that part. You will need to pin that out to see what the amounts would be. The right neckline has a bubble as you've noticed so maybe look at reshaping the neck curve, and possibly drop the right neck point a touch. Be nice to see the pattern for the back, might be worth looking at pinning out a bit between the back scye side seam as there also seems a bit too much width there. You would have to scoop out the back armhole to suit of course. It's a body garment so one can cut it quite close at the back. Anyway, those are my thoughts and opinions.
I agree with the need for a hair more length in the front. After putting this on several times I think it could even go for half an inch. That's just based on where it covers the waistband of the trousers.
Reshaping the shoulder seams, I am finally starting to grasp how I can deal with the bubble here. Still not perfect, but an ironing should help.
I've included a photo with the buttons undone.
Quote from: Thom Bennett on December 17, 2023, 11:51:56 AMmight be worth looking at pinning out a bit between the back scye side seam as there also seems a bit too much width there. You would have to scoop out the back armhole to suit of course.
Could you elaborate on this a bit more? I kind of understand what you mean, but I am also not really sure that I understand exactly where you are pointing me to. Attached.photo of the back pattern might help.
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The unbuttoned gapes just that littl bit. Peterle will know better than me, but I suspect a bit more front balance will help that.
Back darts are now recommended.
I think the shoulders look good, what is it that you are still looking at?
When sewing the facing on you baste it on first. The facing is on top and towards the bottom you lift it and put a slight roll in. When you sew it and press the seam open and the facing underneath it should have a slight curl going under the belly, instead of just falling. Along the bottom towards the point a slight bit of the same trick might work.
Rory Duffy (former Savile Row tailor) has a very good video series on waistcoats. Definitely worth a look at (if you haven't already seen it):
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/thehtasbwaistcoat
If you subscribe for a month, it works out a cheaper than renting individual episodes.
And a couple of freebies worth watching (the more approaches/info the better), but Rory's course is the best I've come across:
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/bespokewaistcoat/801194326
https://youtu.be/Rhnqi8chrtI?si=3ZLzOSOB5-1h2f1M
It is so much better now. shoulders and neck fit quite good now.
Back: The back is cut qite straight. You could increase the darts, but shift them a bit (1,5cm?) towards the center. I would aslo test if the waistline and the back strap are positioned at your true waist. To me it seems they are a bit lower than your natural waist. You can feel your natural waist: Spread off your thumbs and stroke your hands downwards at your lateral back. you willl feel the smallest spot. The strap should be positiond there, otherwise it can bunch up the whole waistcoat when tightened.
Front: Yes, you could lengthen the front. But I´m not a fan of long waistcoats. I think they throw off the classical proportions and look awful when sitting. To achieve a clean look and have a nice transition it is more important to have pants that are cut high enough and held up accordingly (suspenders). It´s of course a matter of personal taste.
The fit is a lot better now. I see a slight diagonal fold/wave from the lowest armhole point towards the pocket, especially at your right side. Usually a dropping shoulder is paired with an outward hip on the same side. Because this is your hanging side and I think I can recognise that the button row is pulled slightly towards this side i presume that´s the reason for this fold.
Quote from: Thom Bennett on December 17, 2023, 11:51:56 AMYou have a fairly hollow back which creates unnecessary length and width at your back waist. Yes, the back darts need to be further round to the CB. I also think you could move your back notches up a tad thus passing the back down a bit to lose the extra length in that part. You will need to pin that out to see what the amounts would be.
Now that I am pretty much down to refining the back on this piece (the rest will need to wait for waistcoat #2), I think that I can see what you are referring to. I'm having a hard time understanding your suggestions for dealing with the extra length.
This is a case where I am realizing that I failed, once again, to notch the waistline on these pieces. That said, I am admittedly clueless as to whether that is even the right place to notch. I am having a hard time understanding how moving the back notches up would move the back down. I think that I am simply lacking the necessary vocabulary here.
This process has been fascinating. I will never look at my body the same way again.
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Something about Balance is what sliding the back up or down on the side seam is about. To do this proper the back needs some inlays.
Crooked and straightening is shifting the front shoulder somewhat sideways on the shoulder seam.
Clarence Poulin, King Wilson and David Carlin (Alteration Of Men's Clothing) books explain these with diagrams. Poulin also shows where to put most inlays.
The back dart is to close to the sideseam. My suggestion is don't cut darts until you know where they belong. Patterns hopefully get seams close to the right place.
Pockets are put in after the garment has been fitted. The pattern location and angle may not be the best. Buttons and buttonholes are made and sewn on often after the final press. Beginners make many practice pockets and buttonholes.
Accept the overwhelming. It is easier that way. You come away with better garments.
A couple of short, elementary fitting-demos for testing a pattern with a toile.
https://www.deofsf.com/04-UTS/Videos/3-04-UTS.mp4
https://www.deofsf.com/04-UTS/Videos/3-05-UTS.mp4
Notice that the sides aren't even joined initially. They have to hang where they need to. If the back were deliberately or accidentally slid higher than the front at the side seams, i.e. out of balance, and sewn, then hopefully you'll understand that this would create a ruck/gathering of excess cloth. The side seams would need to be released, allowing the back to fall where gravity takes it. That is what is meant by passing down the length (excess).
After reading Clarence Poulin's work on this topic, I think that I finally understand the way to make this adjustment (still confused about moving the notch though). I managed to squeeze out a 1/4" shift of the back down by taking it in even more at the top, though now I feel like I may have exceeded a critical limit there. After that I had to pinch out 3/4" at the back to get things to start looking smooth. And it looks to me like I could even go more? That's such a huge shift at this point, I don't know if it's even feasible. I could move some of it upwards into the shoulder seam, and then lower the arm hole on the front by the other half so that I can shift the back down further. I'm afraid that altering the arm hole much more than that will start to look off from the front.
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Please pardon some rambling on this update. I was getting a bit frustrated experimenting trying to find how much excess length needed to be removed and where. After getting frustrated making little progress with just pinning, I completely opened up the sides and started pinning them together, shifting the backs down more and more. This gave minimal results.
So I started thinking about my extreme hollow back (now realizing this is why I have such a pot belly) and looking at other waistcoat drafts and how people correct for a hollow back. I realized that some drafts have quite a bit more shift in the CB seam between the top and bottom than the draft that I used. I have been hesitant to touch this seam because I recall reading once before that it is generally advised to not mess with this seam when making alterations, but this seemed like a good excuse to experiment. So I basted up a new center back seam that would have it match a draft published by Clarence Poulin. The result looked like a significant improvement to me.
There was still a lot of room for improvement, so I basted up an even bigger change to the CB seam. At this point, the very center was starting to look pretty smooth and there appeared to be some sagging to either side. From here I pinned up 1/2" at the outer end of each shoulder. This has messed with the backs of the shoulders a bit, but the sides no longer seemed to sag. There was still some excess bulk in the back though. So I extended the darts up another 2" or so and made them maybe 1/16" deeper at the waist. Now here is where I am.
Obviously there is still room for improvement and, quite frankly, I'm not very confident about the approach that I took. Nevertheless, I think a press (which has not been done yet) would smooth this out a little bit more.
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Well done for perservering, you're getting there and the back is looking much better. As you say, a press will help.
Something odd is going on around the neck and shoulders though. At a guess, I'd say you have a little too much length going into the base of neck. The cloth is bunching/gathering there. It's also possible that the the back is being pulled towards the front at the shoulder ends, creating those horizontal drags. Or the shoulder angle is now too sloped - might need to release the shoulder seams and smooth those folds of cloth into them.
Difficult to say without a cursory press and other photos - I always find 'long distance' diagnoses difficult (so much easier to see what the problem is in person).
As peterle suggested, the straps would be better at the natural waist.
I guess you realise that the darts pull all that extra length in the back right up to the body.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Yes, it can be very frustrating to fit one self. it´s much easier to pin on someone else.
My first thought is: the backstrap is there to gather some width, so no need to remove all the width with darts and get the waistcoat thight.
My second thought is, to remove length in just the shoulderseams does not work. We all tried it, we all failed. Lenght (and width) must always be removed where the excess is located. In your current versions there are some serious ripples in the neck shoulder area wich are new. I like the version of post 61 much better.
so my recommondations would be:
Back to version of post 61.
To remove some width, you can increase the darts a bit, and now you know where to place the darts and where your natural waistline is.
To remove the bulging length, im pretty sure it has to be removed along the natural waistline. Pin a horizontal fold at the waistline from dart to dart across the center back removing about 2cm and fade it out from the darts to the side seams. As you learned you have hollow back. The body in this area is concave and this fold allows enough length at the side seam and enough shortness at the center back. When the pinnig works, we can talk about how to integrate the alteration into the pattern.
Well I have been at this since last night and for a good chunk of today. I pulled the pins from the shoulder and the back is now pretty conforming to my body. Probably went way too far, though it does feel very... comforting? I kinda like it, though it probably doesn't leave much room for an excessive meal.
As peterle suggested, I pinned out a bit at the waist. Only about half an inch. That didn't look like it did much, so I moved the pinning up to where the bulk of excess material looked to be. At least I feel like I have the beginnings of a body coat.
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Well, I think it looks better now and the superfluous length is removed. The little folds seem to by mainly from the basted seams now.
I would locate the horizontal fold in between your versions, because I think there is your natural waitline( not easy just from pics). The backstrap should be installed at the same line.
About the tightness: When you make a waiscoat very tight like a bodice it will not move much on the body. especially when seated it can look a bit odd and be umcomfortable. Second your waistcoat is from linnen, a summer material. Wearing very tight clothing in summer isn´t that comfortable also. Of course it is a matter of personal preferences.
Thank you everyone for your input on this. I decided to just finish this up. Some areas were starting to look a little abused. I let out the sides by about a full inch and moved the strap upward about an inch. I'm happy with this as a first waistcoat. I've updated my patterns and have plenty of notes to improve the next one. Looks like my last press after washing out the tailors chalk could have been a lot better...
I'm now thinking about trying my hand at a coat to finish the ensemble. Rather than trying to fight with an old draft, I'm debating between investing in Müller and Son's Suit Jackets book or approaching the one tailor left in my city who drafts and cuts in house to see if they would be willing to draft a pattern for me on contract.
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Quote from: DrLang on December 27, 2023, 06:00:07 AMThank you everyone for your input on this. I decided to just finish this up. Some areas were starting to look a little abused.
For a first attempt, that's pretty good. Well done.
With waistcoats, it's typical to use cheap shirting for the back until the pattern is finalised. All the adjustments and stitching (even basting) can scar the cloth, particularly silk. To reiterate what you've already discovered:
For fittings, always baste, never cut darts, leave inlay.
Again, well done!
Was looking at some photos of another person who had a tailor make a coat for him. Kind of the same body shape that you have. This tailor didn't know how to cut a pattern for this customers body. Before you buy a pattern from a tailor, if you do that, ask to see pictures of his customers that have bodies similar to yours. No sense in having the same problems.
This one old tailor said that he would take a measurement from the nape of the neck to the location of the main button that buttons. Nape of neck is in the back at the bone that juts. Just rub the back of your neck, up and down the spine, and you will feel it. Minus the seam allowances the lenght should be fairly close on the finished pattern lenght. I think a good location for that button is at the part of the belly that sticks out the most. Years ago this one man got his coats made and the button stance was to high. So the bulge of his belly spilled out in front. It made him look larger there. At the final fitting you decide what looks best on you as to where it goes. The purpose of this measurement is that you have the right length. It's a check measured, if pattern doesn't put there (lack of length). As you know patterns are not reliable. As a small boy I was told that button is 5/8 inch below the waistline on average coat. Poulin has a different method of buttons location and bottom of the roll line. Some set the bottom of the lapel to start rolling higher or lower. I like a definitive curve jutting out instead of gentle or none. How you shape the lapel, nice curl (padstitching), can distract from the belly. Tailoring is full of many methods to distract. I would rather have a coat that amazes the viewer of its quality than people noticing all of my physical defects because of some "perfect fit") nonsense. An excellent lapel draws attention away from the belly, and what ever the problem is, such as, stooped posture,etc.
Read some books that tell about inlays. This way you know where to put them. You might add a few more.
I recommend using a muslin cloth. If the pattern is way off you will be glad the cheap cloth is lost instead of the fine cloth of the coat. When it is safe to use the fine cloth your pattern should be way closer to a good fit. Still add inlays, because the cloth will be thicker and handle different.
Another book to download. The Modern Tailor Outfitter And Clother. There are three volumes. Number One has something about the Donlon Wedge. The location to download is somewhere on this website.
Quote from: Greger on December 30, 2023, 11:51:33 AMWas looking at some photos of another person who had a tailor make a coat for him. Kind of the same body shape that you have. This tailor didn't know how to cut a pattern for this customers body. Before you buy a pattern from a tailor, if you do that, ask to see pictures of his customers that have bodies similar to yours. No sense in having the same problems.
Thank you for this warning in particular. I know I have seen photos on the website of at least one local MTM tailor that are just clearly not correctly fitting. An obsession with slim fit suits on people that don't have a slim fit suit body. Not that I am judging them if that's what their clients want.
This makes me a little hesitant to even try this now. It will surely be an awkward exchange if I look at photos and decide to move on. Maybe I should just go with a modern Rundschau draft and draw it up myself.
Come to think of it, I am a little bit surprised that the hollow back is not a very standard adjustment considering the modern ubiquity of sedentary office jobs. But I have a generally hard time finding clear guidance on how to address it. I don't know how my experience with this waistcoat will translate to a coat. Obviously the coat should not be so form fitting, but trying to move the excess down had minimal effect. The best I could come up with was from watching one person slash the pattern at the CB and close it up a bit. Well, this will be an adventure!
MTM, probably only a few tailors among them. MTM doesn't have real fittings. They pick the closest pattern and then send it off to factory and it comes back completed. the only change available is the sleeve hem and hem of trousers. they don't own the pattern to give/sell you a copy. the pattern is probably at the factory.
The battery is about done. I'll write some more later about patterns.
Yeah I'm aware of that about MTM. There are a surprising number of MTM tailors around here for the size of the city. I have found at least one, possibly two, that do full in house bespoke. They are likely the only ones. Those are the two I am considering approaching.