For some of my early practice with my new sewing machine I picked up a few Brooks Brothers shirts from goodwill that I'll practice altering. It's that traditional sort of boxy/loose fit, so I'm taking it in from the waist and past the armpit to also taper the sleeves stopping about midway up the arm. I started to pick apart the side seams but it appears they have some lining/taped seam, so even if I remove the stitches it doesn't come apart. I'm tearing the fabric around the seam before I'm actually separating the seam.
Is that common on RTW shirts, taped seams? Is that what you'd call it? Do I have any other option for altering it besides just cutting out the seam?
Can you post a photo or two?
It's possible that stay-tape has been used to reinforce seams. Especially if the fabric is thin or loosely woven. Or perhaps the seams have been bound with bias tape?
Neither is that common, but photos would clear things up and prompt solutions.
It was a woven type fabric, so I was also periodically poking through it with the seam ripper. Here's pics of the original seam outside and inside, plus one of the extra material that was folded into the seam. It appeared to be fused onto one side of the fabric before the seam was folded.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3kr2YxM9/IMG-3633.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3kr2YxM9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gXhZNwRc/IMG-3634.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXhZNwRc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VSptq9JH/IMG-3635.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSptq9JH)
Because you've cut/ripped the seams out, it difficult to see what was what.
I don't see any tape (it would be unlikely for it to be the same colour as the cloth). So I'm guessing that it's either a standard, flat-felled seam or the seam has been done with a hemmer foot. In which case, the 'tape' you're encountering is just folded seam material. One stitch line is the actual seam, the other stitch line secures the folded seams to the garment, protecting them from fraying.
How are you ripping the seams? If using a seam ripper, don't blindly plough down the stitching and hope for the best. Unpick stitches individually in a small area then prise apart the seam a little to reveal stitches. Only rip those exposed stiches, then prise apart a little more. Time consuming, but you won't rip cloth.
May be hard to see not against the rest of the fabric, here's another shot
(https://i.postimg.cc/JtkFkm6R/IMG-3636.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JtkFkm6R)
And the technique you describe is what I ultimately got into a rhythm of, although it couldn't separate this other material which seems fused on
That does look like stay tape. Which is a first for me (never seen this in any shirt I've dismantled).
Could you post a photo without that enlarged circle so that I can see the tape within context of the seam? (preferably with part of the seam unpicked). I can't work out whether the tape is within the fold of what you've ripped, or a 'strap' seam, placed over the seams and stitched in place. Also, what's the general cloth like? Is it thin or loosely woven? I ask out of curiosity, more than anything.
Back to your problem. The tape's stitches look doable. Hook your seam ripper under one or two adjacent stitches to loosen the tape. Then prise it upwards. Pulling it like this will loosen the next few stitches, which you'll rip. Repeat the process.
Unless the tape was the fusible type. In which case you'll have to heat it with the iron to release it (once the stitches have been removed). You'll need to protect your iron if the tape is double-sided.
Very unorthodox method of doing seams (at least here in the UK). I've stayed shoulder seams of shirts in the past, but not side seams. If it's fusible, then it would hold everything in place prior to stitching, I'm guessing. Intriguing.
Don't buy Brooks Brothers for alteration next time?? :P
If the tape is too difficult to remove and the shirts are really baggy, you could just mark out sew lines and take them in without touching the seams. If you do this with wrong sides together, you could form French seams; which might be the easiest, because you'd need to reduce the existing seams to a nub anyway (at this point - having tested for fit - you'd cut them out). Once 'Frenched' ( :) ), fell the seams flat?
Worth a try.
Out of interest I googled around about Brooks Brothers' shirts. Apparently:
"The problem, as mentioned, is with the seams. They're treated and taped to resist puckering. BB's store tailors don't have the ability to redo that, so they decline to alter the shirts. If you don't mind the chance of the seams puckering like a regular-finish shirt, your tailor can alter them."
And supposedly, "85% of their shirts are non-iron and you can't alter them".
From this thread:
https://www.styleforum.net/threads/altering-brooks-brothers-non-iron-shirts.179433/
If they pre-shrunk their cloth in the first place, much of that puckering wouldn't exist and they wouldn't have to tape their seams. ::) Though it's possible that the cloth they use is a blend - "iron free" fabric - so doesn't require shrinking. Out of interest, does the label say 100% cotton?
By the sound of things they use fusible tape, so you might be able to heat it and remove it. I've seen a Mike Maldonado video where he demonstrates removal of fusing (think it was in relation to shirt cuffs). However, I paid to watch a couple of his video modules so it might have been there. Worth knowing about his channels anyway:
https://www.youtube.com/@Maldonado60/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@shirtologist9365/videos
If you can't remove the tape with heat, you'll have to do French seams (assuming the shirts are oversized and there's enough cloth to do this); or cut out the existing seams.
Forgot to mention. In this case, the quickest way to remove the stitches from the tape (given that it's glued down) would be to break the bobbin side's stitching every 5/8ths to 3/4 of an inch. The top thread should then just pull away. If the stich density is high, then reduce the distance between the broken stitches.
Thank you for all the information. It was a fusible tape, but the amount that I needed to reduce the shirt by for my alterations meant I snipped off that portion anyway. The first shirt was a woven cotton, second was more like a poplin, but both had the fusible tape. For the first shirt I sorta butchered it with the seam rippers because I didn't really have a good technique, so in the end the process was just that I snipped off the seam, then took the opportunity to practice overcast stitching with my machine. After that just figured following exact measurements was out the window so I'd just focus on reconstructing the shirt, regardless of fit (being such a beginner I just need practice of any kind). I then did what I understand to be a flat-felled seam: wrong sides together, front and back panel lined up and front panel slid about .5cm in from the back panel, fold that extra back panel material over the front panel and sew, then fold that over again and sew that down (not through to the back panel, though, just the front panel). The result wasn't that bad in the end, if you look closely you can see some poor stitching but at a glance it's fine, and the point was the practice not the result.
Second shirt I took my time with the seams and was able to get those apart cleanly, and this time same operation but following measurements. I knew I needed to remove 4" total from the waist circumference so I pressed the seams open, measured 1" back from the edge on each side and panel, snipped that off, then did the same seam operation I described above. I'm not done with it yet but so far so good.
I followed the process of the "Sewing Guru" videos. Next up will be tapering some heavier cotton pants.
Thanks again for the advice!
Quote from: Gerry on September 12, 2023, 08:06:00 AMare non-iron and you can't alter them".
Another (https://earth.org/statistics-about-fast-fashion-waste/#) reason local tailoring talent is needed on every main/side street everywhere.
I have run into a few shirts requiring alterations with glued flat felled seams. It was a surprise. It's very frustrating and impossible to remove.
As for no iron shirts, we tried to dye one at work and it turned out a patchwork of colour variations due to a chemical that is seemed to have been sprayed with or dipped in to make it no iron.
Not something I would want to wear next to my skin. :o
Had a similar experience trying to remove fusible canvas. Ended badly. Reminded me to look for solution. No joy but something. https://www.thecreativefolk.com/remove-fabric-glue-from-clothes/
It's a funny coincidence that my first few projects have been unexpectedly difficult. The first was to shorten a bunch of neckties that were too long, but getting the lining lined up and sewn correctly onto the tie fabric, recreating the triangle and point, turning that out, etc., it was maybe not the best for a very first project. Then, deciding to alter two shirts that even the maker doesn't like to alter! Oops. I powered through on both and learned a lot, though, and maybe better that I didn't realize they would be hard.
QuoteOut of interest, does the label say 100% cotton?
Yes
QuoteAnother reason local tailoring talent is needed on every main/side street everywhere.
Sadly what sort of kickstarted this endeavor was being unsatisfied with a local tailor's alterations. They'd rush through a fitting and my questions then I'd get things back way too short, or they'd misunderstand what I wanted, or I'd look at it later and just think it didn't look very strong.
Quote from: Steelmillal on September 12, 2023, 09:27:18 PMQuote from: Gerry on September 12, 2023, 08:06:00 AMare non-iron and you can't alter them".
Another (https://earth.org/statistics-about-fast-fashion-waste/#) reason local tailoring talent is needed on every main/side street everywhere.
A mere dent, but if enough businesses follow their example it'll make a difference:
https://twitter.com/PiccadillySW1/status/1687496398156001280
Ain't arguing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/67V3051W/pears-grown-in-argentina-packed-in-thailand-then-sold-in-united-states.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/67V3051W)
30 years ago was a bumper sticker said "think globally act locally". Personally knowing your butcher, baker, and candlestick maker, would "solve"(solvent pun hehe) a lot. But its money and they disappear people when messing with their money.
So guessing EvanTA's 'new' Kenmore hasn't let the factory packed smoke out?
Quote from: EvanTA on September 12, 2023, 11:10:21 PMQuoteOut of interest, does the label say 100% cotton?
Yes
If shirt makers (and I include many bespoke companies, especially those with workshops) pre-shrunk their cloth, pressed seams before felling them, and used cleaner methods of completing seams, they wouldn't need to stay them with fusible tape. A lot of puckering/roping results from not following the above; and what there is should/can press out easily.
However, time = money. What would I know.
Since we're talking felled seams a lot, how do people feel about felling feet or other hemmer feet? My machine came with no additional feet, and for these last two shirts I just folded and pressed myself before sewing, should I just stick with that and get good at it so I possess that additional level of control, or just use the special presser feet because it's a time saver and I'll get more consistent results?
Quote from: EvanTA on September 13, 2023, 12:32:05 AMSince we're talking felled seams a lot, how do people feel about felling feet or other hemmer feet? My machine came with no additional feet, and for these last two shirts I just folded and pressed myself before sewing, should I just stick with that and get good at it so I possess that additional level of control, or just use the special presser feet because it's a time saver and I'll get more consistent results?
Hemmer feet for domestic machines tend to work best with thin, sheer material. The larger feet (1/4 inch seams and above) can take shirting, but they're devilishly fiddly to use and even then some thicker shirting is difficult to feed through.
Even if you get the hang of them, they create dirty seams and hems, literally twisting the cloth as you sew. This is more easily observed with striped cloth (the stripes at the hem tends to go off at an angle to the main body). This is one of the reasons why ready-to-wear shirts (and even bespoke) can look tired after a single wash. Factories/workshops press the hell out of everything with industrial presses. But after washing - especially if there's shrinkage - that twisting (AKA 'roping') comes back to haunt you. Good luck trying to press that with a domestic iron.
I've achieved good results with hemmed seams by pressing the whole seam before feeding it through the foot. In which case, the hemmer becomes a glorified edge-guide and, therefore, a bit pointless. Especially seeing as it's still fiddly to use.
Felling feet are more useful for doing hems, IMO. You starch then press the whole hem and feed it through. Again, it acts as a glorified edge guide, but the channel of the foot does keep the stitch-line even. That said, I don't use them for hemming.
I wouldn't recommend using a felling foot for actually felling, though. The way you're supposed to use them is to offset the seams by a single seam width, fold bottom-piece (the front, actually) over top and secure the main seam using the foot. Then fold everything over and align its edge with the feed-guide on the LHS to fell the seam flat. The problem with this is that the main seam is sewn at less than a seam's width (the needle position is slightly to the right, therefore within a quarter of an inch); so when doing the felling, the main seam is pulled over to the left, creating an inherent ruck/bow in the seam. It looks neatly stitched, but it's a bad end-result and is never going to press well.
Better results are to be had by offsetting, pressing and sewing the main seam in advance, then feeding it through the felling foot. Though, once more, this makes it a glorified edge-guide and a bit redundant.
My main problem with these feet is that they tackle everything from the wrong side of the cloth. I prefer to actually top-stich: what looks good on the side you're stitching can look slightly off on the other. Plus, with some machines the bobbin stitch isn't as neat as the top stitch.
Most bespoke makers use little more than a single-needle machine and a quarter inch foot to do the whole shirt. A magnetic guide helps to obtain more accuracy, but even that isn't necessary (with a bit of practice).
1/4 inch quilting feet are really great. They have a blade at the side of the foot that the seam can butt-up against. I bought two and prised the blade of one of them with some pliers. This allows better visibility and manoeuvrability when top-stitching collars etc. If I need straight line precision (top-stitching plackets), I simply use it in conjunction with a magnetic guide. The other foot, with the blade intact, is useful for securing pockets with a second line of stitching, 1/4 inch in from the edges. The blade simply runs against the side of the already secured pocket, to give a dual needle/thread look. I also use it for felling, top stitching from the right side (the blade running in the seam).
The second method in the following vid is typically how shirt-makers fell seams. The top piece is offset by a seam, the bottom piece folds over it by about a 1/16th more than a seam's width, then you stitch at a seam's width, catching the very edge of the folded over cloth. This creates the main seam and holds the initial fold, preventing it from bulging, pleating or unfolding under the foot when doing the felling. It's easier to do with an edge guide (see second vid). Just pull the top piece over so that it's slightly to the left of the needle (this can all be done by eye, aligning everything in advance of each stretch of sewing).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmSnUyQt0c8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU8OCHdJ-d8
I no longer use the above method (I bias bind all my seams nowadays). A drawback is that with some cloth the very edge frays and the first run of stitching doesn't always hold the fold in place. In which case you have to use a slightly wider seam: pulling over the folded under-piece by about an eighth instead of a sixteenth.
Note the roping in the second vid. Not clean. It can be avoided by gently pulling from both front and back as you sew. Equal tension to neutralise the forces. This stretches the cloth a little, so when everything relaxes after sewing, the stiches contract and loosen, avoiding that pull on the cloth. Also note that the machinist doesn't press the seam before felling it flat. That doesn't do much to aid a clean seam, either.
Time equals money, though ...
Bloody hell, did I just type all that? I clearly have nothing better to do! ;D
This is great, thank you for the extended thoughts. The second process shown in the first video is what I did, good to know I was following a standard practice.
And what you say of the felling/hemmer feet makes sense, I'd wondered if they were one of those things that is only helpful when it works perfectly.
So, really the attachments to get if any are the presser feet with a guide on one edge (1/4" at least, maybe some other widths?) and the movable magnetic guide. Those will help me to reliably stitch in straight lines.
Most feet end up to be little more than gimmicks. Either that or there are better, less fiddly ways of doing things.
Shirts typically use 1/4 inch seams, so a 1/4 inch foot is a must IMO. If you already have a foot that wide, then you're good to go. Simply buy a magnetic guide. Otherwise, 1/4 inch quilting feet are available for every type of machine. And you don't need a branded/vintage foot. The ones I bought are 'low-shank' suitable for many, vintage Singers (and copies). This foot:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171451816610
Obviously they can vary in looks, but easily available. I find that removing the blade makes them more versatile (so long as you also have/buy a magnetic guide). But nice to have both (simply buy two feet).
With a quarter inch foot, you can do every part of the shirt.
PS, stay away from domestic feet with an adjustable guide. The guides/blades tend to wobble.
There are heavy-duty/industrial, adjustable seam-guides that also fit domestic machines. The ones I own are a little proud, however, and scar the cloth unless foot pressure is slackened off considerably. It's less faff to simply use a magnetic guide, frankly. Admittedly that type is useful for felling, but only heavy duty cloth (denim), not shirting. The blades tend to be quite thick, so they don't exactly fit into the seam nicely. They're more for butting-up against elevated seams.
Why don't you make a shirt pattern, fit it, and make your shirts there after? Messing around with pre-made shirts is a waste of time. There are several shirt pattern methods on this site.
Greger is right. ;)
Watch for balance in the bodice though.
My take is EvanTA is using the hack n wack method of learning. Dive in and burn time to learn as fast as possible using cheap subjects, aka thrift store. At the outset he said for his own alterations.
Be patient, he'll get it soon enough, and wander through the forum. Shoot, ain't even got to Posaune's territory yet, where fit REALLY matters. Plus he's in DC. There's Masters there still, too.May go off the deep end and become a broom operator just to learn secrets that make money, albeit little money :)
Quote from: Gerry on September 12, 2023, 11:36:57 PMWhat would I know.
Should we tell her??
Nah, I enjoy reading longer winded than mine and I learn lots :)
No seriouslyy, I learn. I thank you. Carry on..
Quote from: Steelmillal on September 13, 2023, 08:04:29 PMMy take is EvanTA is using the hack n wack method of learning. Dive in and burn time to learn as fast as possible using cheap subjects, aka thrift store. At the outset he said for his own alterations.
Be patient, he'll get it soon enough, and wander through the forum.
With my 'journey' I taught myself cutting before I went anywhere near a machine; then got stuck-in, making my own stuff and learning by trial and error (mostly the latter!). However, I have also spent time taking apart and studying/measuring old, ready-to-wear garments, to see how they were constructed and to get guidelines for drafts (in some cases, guidelines of what to avoid).
It's not one approach or the other, but both IMO. It's all experience. As you say, "he'll get there soon enough". :)
welder mantra: more ya burn, more ya learn, measured by the pound. its why you also practice basketball free throws with less dominant hand; it's hard and teaches lessons not learned otherwise. It really is about balance in all things.
Quote from: Steelmillal on September 13, 2023, 09:12:43 PMQuote from: Gerry on September 12, 2023, 11:36:57 PMWhat would I know.
Should we tell her??
The machinist in that second vid works for Emma Willis (one of the leading shirt-makers on Jermyn Street, London). I'm not singling them out, this is typical working practice. When did pressing seams go out of fashion??
All good points - my overarching practice now is to accumulate exposure and practice time. Pretty much anything I throw myself at in these early stages will challenge me. First off was to learn the sewing machine, first with some old bedsheets running seam lines, adjusting the machine to see the changes and trying the different stitch options. Next alter some articles I had that I wouldn't be bothered if I ruined them.
My first big goal is trouser construction. I'm reading through David Coffin's trouser book, and just ordered Hostek's trouser book. I'll play around with and study some pants I've got, alter them a bit to see what I can pick up about how the manipulations affect fit (looking at Carlin's alteration book for that), then jump in with making some pajama pants from a pattern. They'll be pajama pants because I already happen to have a few yards of a nice soft flannel that would lend itself to pajama bottoms and if they turn out kinda goofy who cares, but I'll use the opportunity to incorporate elements like a fly (just with no buttons or zipper), patch rear pockets, slant pockets on the front, etc.
Along the way I'll scour the posts here and ask questions as needed. Thank you all for the help!