I found this quite handy, as a reference for designing shirt collars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ihId6GKW2U
I just looked at the video and looked at the 3. fitting too. I can`t say that I´m over the edge seeing the result. The fit is not so nice in my opinion : see shoulder balls (stress folds) and the right sleeve cap and armhole there. My impression is: that tailors for men can learn about doing thight garments from the ladies.
Sorry guys
lg
posaune
I agree with you with respect to fit. I use an augmentation of Michael Rohr's cutting method, as laid out in his 1948 book on drafting ladies wear. I also find drapers fascinating to watch and revelatory with respect to seam and dart placement (plus styling).
That said, the video I posted is a useful starting point for drafting different shirt collars. At least I thought so. I drape my collars, but always begin with a rough draft, leaving allowances that can be cut away/augmented as required.
I am sorry, Gerry. I watched first the collar video - very nicely explained. Then sidestepped on youtube and watched another one "Second bespoke shirt fitting with Wil Whiting". After reading the mails underneath and all the praises I was a bit angry.......... So my comments.
Okay, I am very sorry
lg
posaune
No problem Posaune, I understand your frustration when it comes to what is considered good fit. And to reiterate what we've both said, ladieswear tends to be better in that respect.
Quote from: posaune on January 11, 2023, 04:04:12 AM
"Second bespoke shirt fitting with Wil Whiting"
I sold Wil a bunch of shears a while back. He studied under David Gale who then had to train another replacement for his retirement from Hilditch-Key once Wil sprinted to his own brand. Wil didn't let any of the super secrets out though.
Oh! you know some interesting people, Steelmill.
As I am in the moment not able to sew I looked a lot of the youtube canal from Kirby.
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on January 10, 2023, 10:08:07 PM
I just looked at the video and looked at the 3. fitting too. I can`t say that I´m over the edge seeing the result. The fit is not so nice in my opinion : see shoulder balls (stress folds) and the right sleeve cap and armhole there. My impression is: that tailors for men can learn about doing thight garments from the ladies.
Sorry guys
lg
Don't be sorry Posaune, you are t the only one to think that!
posaune
Quote from: posaune on January 11, 2023, 09:18:37 PM
Oh! you know some interesting people, Steelmill.
As I am in the moment not able to sew I looked a lot of the youtube canal from Kirby.
lg
posaune
That was my remedy for a rather persistent illness recently ;)
I don't want to hijack this thread with different videos, but I stumbled over the Budd Shirtmaker video from Kirby. Would love to hear your opinion on the fit (btw I'm shocked that they apparently don't pre-wash their shirting, given the price they are asking for a shirt)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb1_qPqpN0o&t=711s
Re the Wil Whiting video: Though I don't think it is a bad fit at all, I think after 3 fittings, I expected a little bit more. Nevertheless I find the videos quite fascinating.
It is my opinion (and taste) that a shirt is a shirt - something comfortable to wear - with enough ease. Emphasis on the shoulders and suggestion of a waist and small hips. So my preference is Mr. Ball.
lg
Posaune
(Ball does a slim fit with taking out about 2.5 cm at each side seam at waist. If I would do that much with a Ladies shirt I would not cut this amount directly away at sideseam. I would manipulate the pattern and the side seam would be a bit shorter after it and not longer. The shirt would sit better. I like his forming of the sideam under the armpit.)
Nothing like that, posaune, just sold him some shears. ;D I was impressed by his drive to be 'king of the world' like all young, brash people, ha-ha! He had to have a Heinisch like Gale, I recall, and was really just starting out. Anyway, sorry for the aside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvWU2z-dgfs
Quote from: Petruchio on January 12, 2023, 12:48:52 AM(btw I'm shocked that they apparently don't pre-wash their shirting, given the price they are asking for a shirt)
In an attempt to get more professional results with my own shirting projects, I watched a lot of youtube vids over the holiday period showing the making of shirts in large factories and bespoke workshops. With the latter, not one of them prewashes their fabric. Their advice is generally "wash it a few times and if it doesn't fit, we'll alter the pattern and the subsequent ones will be fine".
This is one of the things that causes 'roping' within felled seams: a buckled and twisted appearance. When the seam shrinks with washing the stitching still has the 'memory' of the original seam's spacing/shape, causing stress. One of the other contributory factors is that no factory/workshop presses their shirt seams before felling them flat. They just press the hell out of everything once the garment has been completed. Such a trivial thing as a quick press before closing seams yields a significant improvement.
The practices that you see being excluded by big commercial companies, for the sake of profit, were once part of the normal quality control in smaller tailor shops. But now, how many customers would notice the difference, or have been brought to believe that the small inconsistencies are normal or acceptable or even unavoidable?
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 12, 2023, 08:21:33 AM
The practices that you see being excluded by big commercial companies, for the sake of profit, were once part of the normal quality control in smaller tailor shops. But now, how many customers would notice the difference, or have been brought to believe that the small inconsistencies are normal or acceptable or even unavoidable?
This is exactly the problem. We're so used to seeing: roping; shoulder seams that overshoot the shoulder; excess width in the chest and body; 'nests' within the top-stitching due to back-tacking etc ... that it's become the norm and nobody questions anything. "That's just how shirts look".
It's a shame, because the largest manufacturing plants could machine an immaculate shirt, given the extent of their computer-controlled automation. No doubt it will happen once body-scanning and computerized cutting evolves.
And they'd have to employ at least one extra person to do a bit of ironing ...
Isn't good shirting suppose to shrink 2% or less? Cotton thread that shrinks with the shirt is helpful. Plastic threads don't shrink.
Quote from: Greger on January 12, 2023, 01:26:40 PM
Isn't good shirting suppose to shrink 2% or less? Cotton thread that shrinks with the shirt is helpful. Plastic threads don't shrink.
In my (albeit limited) experience, much depends on the weave, regardless of quality. It's clear from the section on shrinkage in Textiles On Test - admittedly an old publication: 1931 - that a great many factors are at play. The book states that poplins shrink anywhere from 2.7 to 5.1 percent, typically 3.8 percent. I dare say modern tolerances are better, but I was recently drooling over the Cloth House's website. They specialise in handloomed, Indian cloth, much of it block printed. I dare say that shrinkage is unpredictable, given the method of manufacture, but the cloths are so unique I would not rule them out for that reason.
This isn't all for shirting, but all handloomed and much of it is suitable, especially for casualwear:
https://www.clothhouse.com/search?q=handloomed
Full range of shirting here:
https://www.clothhouse.com/collections/shirts-blouses-1
Yes, cotton thread does help and may or may not contract by a similar amount, but either way it makes sense to me to pre-shrink.
Greger, I expecct that good poplin does behave like that, 2% seems about right and to an extent I wonder how much that kind of variable is factored into commercial drafts?
I bet JCSprouls from the old forum would have been able to say. Unfortunately he seemed to precipitously retire.
G
"..........we'll alter the pattern and the subsequent ones will be fine"
So you should order a new one - which will fit then (hope!). And if you like a shirt from another kind of fabric? Some procedure?
How to you do the collar, Gerry? Floating, half floating or glueing?
lg
posaune
According to the technical data shrinkage of my go-to poplin is under 2%. Regarding the fuseable interlining I didn't experienced a lot of shrinkage, so it wasn't an issue for me so far.
Quote from: posaune on January 12, 2023, 08:18:29 PM
"..........we'll alter the pattern and the subsequent ones will be fine"
So you should order a new one - which will fit then (hope!). And if you like a shirt from another kind of fabric? Some procedure?
How to you do the collar, Gerry? Floating, half floating or glueing?
lg
posaune
The deal with smaller, UK, bespoke shirt-makers, is that you place a minimum order. The first shirt is a test garment and 'takes one for the team' to determine fit. Customers take it as read that it may or may not fit. It's also assumed by the maker that the batch of shirts you order is of similar material.
I have no idea what they do when different cloths are requested, but presumably they use the same suppliers for the sake of consistency, so are aware of tolerances. I'm sure they're low, but even a tiny 2 percent is nearly a third of an inch off a 15 inch collar. If customers are awkward, then see page 65 of Textiles On Test (you'll need to use the full screen and magnifying buttons):
https://archive.org/details/textiles-on-test-j-guilfoyle-williams_202103/page/n43/mode/2up
I soak my shirting in hot water. When the garment is made up, lengths and proportions are as expected, so any of my fitting issues result from poor measurement taking - as I'm sure many of you can sympathise, it can be difficult taking one's own measurements! - or unfamiliarity with a draft's 'issues'.
At school, my shirt collars were mostly floating, so I'm used to them and that's how I do my collars. I don't use fusing. I know it has its uses and sometimes can be an improvement on old ways, but I don't like the stuff. I've recently taken to using suit canvas for reinforcement. Not the stuff used to structure suits, but cloth that you'd use for the exterior of a summer suit. It's thin enough for shirting and provides a nice, stiff collar. It's also cheaper per metre, and comes wider, than 'shirting canvas' (which I find too soft). I don't have a regular supplier, I just look for end of range/bolt canvas whilst ordering other cloth from various places.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 12, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
I wonder how much that kind of variable is factored into commercial drafts?
Judging by what I've bought over the years, they just make everything oversize. By sheer fluke, I once bought a corduroy shirt that actually didn't overshoot my shoulders and looked good on me. I immediately bought another in a different colour and still wear them. Everything else I've owned has been oversized somewhere or other. Usually on the shoulders, where the seams deliberately extend beyond the range of normal humans (one size fits none). They must use gorillas when determining block patterns.
Quote from: Gerry on January 12, 2023, 09:29:53 PM
Judging by what I've bought over the years, they just make everything oversize. By sheer fluke, I once bought a corduroy shirt that actually didn't overshoot my shoulders and looked good on me. I immediately bought another in a different colour and still wear them. Everything else I've owned has been oversized somewhere or other. Usually on the shoulders, where the seams deliberately extend beyond the range of normal humans (one size fits none). They must use gorillas when determining block patterns.
Ha ha, I found a good fitting shirt, Marc menswear, Sydney in the early 1990's. I continued to buy them for a few years but one year I visited Sydney again and it seemed that their target market had changed to barrel chested guys with short arms and tiny necks. I never found another of their shirts to fit me.
But I had been so impressed with the first shirt, my (first) wedding shirt, I had immediately made an exact copy. It greatly disturbed my then wife who asked a friend "How can he do that!?" The friend, who was my Chinese Tai Chi teacher said "By the heart."
It was around that time I began to search for tailoring literature, and realised how difficult it was to find them. I decided that old tailors were clearly buried with their books and their shears on their chest.
I continued copying that shirt for 10 years, with more or less success. but I knew I wouldnt be happy until I knew the machinations of drafting.
I learned a lot from "How to make Men's Clothes" but that was only trousers.
Until I found the Cutter and Tailor forum in 2014. By then Tailoring had really passed away, and all those precious books were up for sale. I now have a splendid library, and thanks to a number of people, who know who they are, I have a working grasp of drafting, fitting and construction.
G
Do you own "Das Hemd"., Schneiderfrei? The content (180 pages) is all about making shirts (sewing, cutting and design) - but no fitting. Not bespoke - more industrial, but a treasue and very allround - I learned a lot from it. After reading it my shirts started to look professional.
I started sewing shirts for my husband maybe 20 years ago, because he fitted not in any bought stuff. He bought RTW - nasty. Meanwhile I order fabric from England, interlining from France and buttons from Germany.
lg
posaune
ISBN 3-8334-3312-4
Caveat: I was stuck on hold with the USPS trying to track a misdelivered package and stumbled into old forum to fill 30 minutes. Also, I'm looking for a business in Germany to relay DHL shipping to the USPS, so such things don't happen again. Any names in EU very good?
Anyway, lots and lots useful below on present topic.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110710225659/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showforum=11
Quote from: posaune on January 12, 2023, 08:18:29 PM
How to you do the collar, Gerry? Floating, half floating or glueing?
lg
posaune
That is a good question.
And, is the glue kept out of the seam allowance?
Posaune, I should really get that book. Do you mean the Mueller book?
I concentrated hard on fitting and drawing drafts, but I have relied on the older literature to do contruction.
The Women's Institute - Tailoring book from the 30's and 40's have been inspiring.
I always wanted to do the Parson's Tunic, to a more modern bodice (Mueller 2000yr). And I did that last summer. I followed the construction details in the article:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=1008.msg7697
Forgive the non-ironing, it's currently 34C inside the house.
The cloth is Acorn: Kendal Sky wool blend - discontinued, but my favourite check, and Windsor brown poplin also discontinued.
The interlining, which is clean french cotton - Melosan, is only secured by the overstitching.
The Buttons are from Prestige - 18 ligne.
I'll do a proper thing later.
G
(https://i.postimg.cc/HjP2hFcp/Acorn-Kendal-Sky-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HjP2hFcp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fJGvwXfp/Acorn-Kendal-Sky-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJGvwXfp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7CV1MRrr/Acorn-Kendal-Sky-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7CV1MRrr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dkV2W9Jk/Acorn-Windsor-Brown-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkV2W9Jk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kDV8BGGm/Acorn-Windsor-Brown-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDV8BGGm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/w1sgNKJ3/DSCN8593.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1sgNKJ3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJ4BXfXj/DSCN8594.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJ4BXfXj)
Is this the book you were telling about posaune?
(https://i.postimg.cc/gr3Nm7bV/HST-001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gr3Nm7bV)
Hi Schneiderfrei, oh no.
https://lbib.de/Das-Hemd-Fertigung-Schnitt-Design-30224
The book was written by 2 brothers (Lauer, Hermann and Alexander), who worked all their life in the shirt making business (no bespoke). Described is the whole process. After reading it - I think - you can open a shop.
par ex.:
Which interlining to use for the basic interlining. (Naturally, they glue.) in Gr/m2
dinner shirt 170
correct business shirt 170
city shirt 145
military 170
working 145
leisure 50-100
casual 50-100
folklore 145
you see, why it is interesting.
They write doing a second interlining in collars, which are supposed to roll.( - ex. button down)
I buy all my shirtings at Acorns, too. Now in winter the brushed shirts are great. Quality never lets you down.
lg
posaune
Ok, I've had a look, and will put aside some cash. ;)
While looking for something else, I accidentally stumbled across this. Some good, basic stuff on fit:
https://www.rampleyandco.com/blogs/the-journal/complete-guide-bespoke-shirts
That's a nice looking shirt Schneiderfrei, but bloody hell, you weren't joking when you said it needs a press! (I thought I was bad) ;D
Gorgeous shirt! How will you iron a woolblend like that?
Hendrick, actually, I don't iron those frequently. They don't shrink though. I've tested that for quite few years.
Gerry, they were straight out of the wash, which was machine wash, with pure cake of soap, grated and emulsified. In our summer weather they were crisply dried in 10 minutes.
I realise I should show the fit as well, but I'll get to that eventually.
I cant emphasise how useful it was to fit a waistcoat first. Since there is very little ease in a waistcoat and the lines are very simple, errors show up clearly.
There are some fitting issues which will remain the same for many years, I just draw those ones into any new draft.
G
Nice Article, Gerry. I put it in my shirt libery, pitty the pic: shirt block is broken.
Now in his gallery he speaks about interlining in the collar.......an additional panel at the center back of the collar is add, so that the tie could not move. Does that mean he reinforces in this part?
To sew a shirt is for me like meditation
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on January 15, 2023, 09:31:46 PM
Nice Article, Gerry. I put it in my shirt libery, pitty the pic: shirt block is broken.
Now in his gallery he speaks about interlining in the collar.......an additional panel at the center back of the collar is add, so that the tie could not move. Does that mean he reinforces in this part?
To sew a shirt is for me like meditation
lg
posaune
This is the photo:
https://www.thetravellingartisan.co.uk/x/cdn/?https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-15650878/images/59d7a07a1782aqn2ftXL/Sop15652_d1450.jpg
There's fine top-stitching all along the edges of the shirting, either side of the exposed canvas (is it canvas?), suggesting that it's meant to be exposed. Judging by the raised seams, it looks like an additional strip, so I'm guessing it's a similar principle as gripper tape in waistbands.
Another shot here:
https://www.thetravellingartisan.co.uk/x/cdn/?https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-15650878/images/59d7a09cb65509YGh3C1/Sop15647_d1450.jpg
No idea, but I'm really impressed by his approach and knowledge. Truly bespoke. Plus he uses a proper sewing machine ;D. Main gallery of Tullio Innocenti here for anyone who's interested:
https://www.thetravellingartisan.co.uk/gallery
Apparently he makes shirts for our current Prime Minister (though that could be anyone by the time you read this ... these days we get through them pretty quickly in the UK).
Beautiful work shown in these Gerry.
Quote from: Gerry on January 16, 2023, 12:56:28 AM
This is the photo:
https://www.thetravellingartisan.co.uk/x/cdn/?https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-15650878/images/59d7a07a1782aqn2ftXL/Sop15652_d1450.jpg
There's fine top-stitching all along the edges of the shirting, either side of the exposed canvas (is it canvas?), suggesting that it's meant to be exposed. Judging by the raised seams, it looks like an additional strip, so I'm guessing it's a similar principle as gripper tape in waistbands.
Another shot here:
https://www.thetravellingartisan.co.uk/x/cdn/?https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-15650878/images/59d7a09cb65509YGh3C1/Sop15647_d1450.jpg
What do you mean by an additional strip? To me it seems like floating interlining. After turning the collar you would simply make the fold and get the right side out of the way.
I tried a similar principle with this italian style collar I made some time ago ( I think classically it's usually not the interlining itself but another layer of coarse oxford cloth). Btw this method produces more swolen edges since the allowance is turned on the right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bD5PP1JM/IMG-20201116-131447-242.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bD5PP1JM)
Quote from: Petruchio on January 18, 2023, 05:30:46 AM
What do you mean by an additional strip? To me it seems like floating interlining. After turning the collar you would simply make the fold and get the right side out of the way.
I tried a similar principle with this italian style collar I made some time ago ( I think classically it's usually not the interlining itself but another layer of coarse oxford cloth). Btw this method produces more swolen edges since the allowance is turned on the right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bD5PP1JM/IMG-20201116-131447-242.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bD5PP1JM)
I was only going by the text that was married to the first photo I linked to: "An additional panel is left on the centre back"
However, it's far more likely that a photo of this panel has been omitted and Mr Innocenti is referring to the arrangement you've outlined. Like I said in my post, I had no idea. :)
Actually, Petruchio, I'm not sure what you've done there. I thought initially that it was like a 'tunnel loop', which the tie slips through. But on closer inspection it seems to be exposed interlining? Perhaps it's a trick of light.
If the latter, does it have more grip or something? (not sure how that would stop a tie slipping). Also, I still don't understand from your description how you did it. Unless it is a loop, then I get it. Though wouldn't that be on the collar stand?
I just remembered one of Kirby's videos, showing the arrangement in this photo:
https://www.thetravellingartisan.co.uk/x/cdn/?https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-15650878/images/59d7a07a1782aqn2ftXL/Sop15652_d1450.jpg
An explanation is given at the 5:20 mark:
https://youtu.be/zWF-q2izaJU?t=318
Quote from: Gerry on January 18, 2023, 06:42:27 AM
Actually, Petruchio, I'm not sure what you've done there. I thought initially that it was like a 'tunnel loop', which the tie slips through. But on closer inspection it seems to be exposed interlining? Perhaps it's a trick of light.
If the latter, does it have more grip or something? (not sure how that would stop a tie slipping). Also, I still don't understand from your description how you did it. Unless it is a loop, then I get it. Though wouldn't that be on the collar stand?
Yes, it is exposed interlining... no loop. Usually it's made with an additional layer of oxford cloth, like in the attached picture. But I've also seen examples of doing it with just the interlining. I'm not sure how practical it really is, but in theory it just makes the collar a little thinner at the back, facilitating the fold.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fSN6gqPz/14262866-1694246507556420-5702919706625703936-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fSN6gqPz)
Constructionwise you just sew the cloth pieces of the collar stand on the interlining first. You then proceed as usual, but you have to turn allowance of the interlining to the right side (so you get quite visible swolen edges)