Hi there-
Does anybody here have any insight into what a tailor (in any position) on Savile Row makes on an hourly or salary basis? I'm simply trying to wrap my head around how the houses on the Row can sell 100+ hours of labor+materials+overhead and still profit at £4,500. Even paying their tailors minimum wage of about £10/hour, that comes to minimum £1,000 just for labor (and it's hard to assume there are enough tailors about for them to be paying minimum wage).
Anybody have any firsthand insight?
Thanks!
What a great question.
That is a good question.
Fabrics are usually included in pricing I believe.
It would also be interesting how many hours are allotted to each garment for sewing purposes.
Process list
Fabrics and materials such as lining, canvas thread buttons, etc
Pattern making
Cutting
Delivery to various tailors for making up if they are not in house
Baste ups
Return to cutter for fitting
Fitting
Tear downs and marking alterations
Delivery to tailor
Sewing - how finished are the garments at this stage?
Return to cutter
Fitting maybe this is a final fitting? But there could be one more....
Garments to finisher
Finishing- buttonholes and buttons, etc - not sure what is left to finishers
Plus
Office type work, taxes emails advertising etc
Overhead -rent, heat hydro, equipment maintenue and repairs, general maintenance etc
No idea what staff are paid. However, a few things spring to mind:
Businesses just need to stay afloat. They're not necessarily looking to expand and monopolise markets. So long as everyone gets paid and the rent is met, that's good enough. IIR, in Richard Anderson's Bespoke book he mentions that Huntsman had a period of barely breaking even.
Saville Row suits can cost more than £4,500.
Outlets sell stuff on premises other than bespoke to keep profits healthy: shirts, ties, cufflinks etc.
I can think of at least one firm that franchised their name in the far east, lending it to off-the-peg suits cut in their style. And a number of tailoring firms across London sell off-the-peg suits (which can be altered on premises) alongside their bespoke service. All helps with their profits.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/business/savile-row-covid.html
Most of the firms don't make huge profits, some are barely surviving breaking even or are practically not profitable and living off investor/benefactors instead. £4500 is in the lower range of Savile Row starting prices. "Starts at" is also a very fluid concept and I would hazard a guess that most suits end up being more expensive than that. I'm also pretty sure only the "cheapest" fabric options are included in that price.
Many London firms rely on outworkers, and they are paid per piece. Even firms with their own workshops often have tailors who are not on salaries, and they may not even be employed by the firm. Another factor here is time. It does not take 100 hours to make a bespoke suit, unless the working method employed is extraordinarily inefficient or we are talking about some pretty over the top detailing or special requirements. I know the savile row association thing specifies 60 hours minimum, but I'm pretty sure that in most cases takes into account the cutting and fitting as well as the actual sewing. I've seen many time logs from the early 1900s to the 50s/60s, and they all hover around 40-45 hours for a three piece with first class handwork. Even if you're that quick I still think, for many, being a tailor for a Savile Row firm is long hours for comparatively little money.
What a great break-down TSjursen. Sounds pretty realistic.
Fabric costs for a high end suit are very high. Years ago I repaired a number of shears for a guy who worked at a high end tailor and among other things I was given a collection of offcuts of some Holland and Sherry suit material that was in the vicinity of UK pounds, 500 pounds a yard. It was not big enough to do anything useful with so I made a pair of stubbies out of the offcuts. Probably the most expensive pair of stubbies on the planet. ;D
Hutch, you and stubbies, Ha ha.
That was my uniform when I was 16 to 19 years old.
G
Hi
Well as a striker, was paid £25,000 starting wages per annum
Quote from: TheEssexTailor on July 18, 2022, 02:21:35 AM
Hi
Well as a striker, was paid £25,000 starting wages per annum
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a striker?
Quote from: anastasia_gr on July 18, 2022, 04:43:56 AM
Quote from: TheEssexTailor on July 18, 2022, 02:21:35 AM
Hi
Well as a striker, was paid £25,000 starting wages per annum
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a striker?
A striker is someone who marks the patterns in and cuts them out.
Quote from: TheEssexTailor on July 18, 2022, 04:46:30 AM
Quote from: anastasia_gr on July 18, 2022, 04:43:56 AM
Quote from: TheEssexTailor on July 18, 2022, 02:21:35 AM
Hi
Well as a striker, was paid £25,000 starting wages per annum
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a striker?
A striker is someone who marks the patterns in and cuts them out.
Ah ok, but the patterns are made by someone else?
Quote from: TSjursen on June 13, 2022, 03:47:31 AM
Most of the firms don't make huge profits, some are barely surviving breaking even or are practically not profitable and living off investor/benefactors instead. £4500 is in the lower range of Savile Row starting prices. "Starts at" is also a very fluid concept and I would hazard a guess that most suits end up being more expensive than that. I'm also pretty sure only the "cheapest" fabric options are included in that price.
Many London firms rely on outworkers, and they are paid per piece. Even firms with their own workshops often have tailors who are not on salaries, and they may not even be employed by the firm. Another factor here is time. It does not take 100 hours to make a bespoke suit, unless the working method employed is extraordinarily inefficient or we are talking about some pretty over the top detailing or special requirements. I know the savile row association thing specifies 60 hours minimum, but I'm pretty sure that in most cases takes into account the cutting and fitting as well as the actual sewing. I've seen many time logs from the early 1900s to the 50s/60s, and they all hover around 40-45 hours for a three piece with first class handwork. Even if you're that quick I still think, for many, being a tailor for a Savile Row firm is long hours for comparatively little money.
I believe 60h could be minimum but I would think 80 to 100h is more realistic. There is no money to make if you don't sell at 6000$. They tailor a suit here for 3000$. I have not clue how they survive here in Houston.
Quote from: anastasia_gr on July 19, 2022, 01:03:36 AM
Quote from: TheEssexTailor on July 18, 2022, 04:46:30 AM
Quote from: anastasia_gr on July 18, 2022, 04:43:56 AM
Quote from: TheEssexTailor on July 18, 2022, 02:21:35 AM
Hi
Well as a striker, was paid £25,000 starting wages per annum
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a striker?
A striker is someone who marks the patterns in and cuts them out.
Ah ok, but the patterns are made by someone else?
Correct, usually by the head cutter or undercutter if he's competent enough
Richard Anderson's book "Bespoke" gives a good breakdown of the practices and hierarchy of Saville Row. It's pretty funny too.
Quote from: TSjursen on June 13, 2022, 03:47:31 AM
Most of the firms don't make huge profits, some are barely surviving breaking even or are practically not profitable and living off investor/benefactors instead. £4500 is in the lower range of Savile Row starting prices. "Starts at" is also a very fluid concept and I would hazard a guess that most suits end up being more expensive than that. I'm also pretty sure only the "cheapest" fabric options are included in that price.
Many London firms rely on outworkers, and they are paid per piece. Even firms with their own workshops often have tailors who are not on salaries, and they may not even be employed by the firm. Another factor here is time. It does not take 100 hours to make a bespoke suit, unless the working method employed is extraordinarily inefficient or we are talking about some pretty over the top detailing or special requirements. I know the savile row association thing specifies 60 hours minimum, but I'm pretty sure that in most cases takes into account the cutting and fitting as well as the actual sewing. I've seen many time logs from the early 1900s to the 50s/60s, and they all hover around 40-45 hours for a three piece with first class handwork. Even if you're that quick I still think, for many, being a tailor for a Savile Row firm is long hours for comparatively little money.
I don’t think that 40-45 sewing hours is realistic for three pieces at all.
I think you are looking at a minimum of 80 sewing hours for three pieces, and if one is making a chest canvas by hand, sewing linings by hand or sewing in trouser curtains by hand it could easily be 100 hours for three pieces.
Maybe Rory Duffy could chime in?
Normal elements like hand felled curtains and linings doesn't add much to the total time.
3mm stitching in a steady pace is easily done 2metres per hour. A specialised hand finisher of course sewing much faster.
My current time consume is 3,5 h hand felling jacket lining and sleeves, 1,5h waistcoat lining and 1,5 hand felling the curtains and trouser lining. And I believe this can be speeded up a lot with more experience.
A three piece suit, only long seams by machine, traditionally hand finished was expected to be made within a week 7,5 hours x 5,5 days, that is 41,5 hours. The Norwegian tailoring guild did however expand this to eight days work (60 h) some 20 years ago.
Most tailors are being paid by piece and learning to work with a professional speed and precision is key to survive in this trade.
In the old days all stitches were done by hand. Different countries had different rules. One guild demanded 33 stitches per minute to step from apprentice to journey man.
A master tailor looks at the customer and what details and cuts the lengths of thread (tailor can't be careless).
Wonder how much old wit is disappearing.
Quote from: Maafaa on July 21, 2022, 02:39:44 AM
Normal elements like hand felled curtains and linings doesn't add much to the total time.
3mm stitching in a steady pace is easily done 2metres per hour. A specialised hand finisher of course sewing much faster.
My current time consume is 3,5 h hand felling jacket lining and sleeves, 1,5h waistcoat lining and 1,5 hand felling the curtains and trouser lining. And I believe this can be speeded up a lot with more experience.
A three piece suit, only long seams by machine, traditionally hand finished was expected to be made within a week 7,5 hours x 5,5 days, that is 41,5 hours. The Norwegian tailoring guild did however expand this to eight days work (60 h) some 20 years ago.
Most tailors are being paid by piece and learning to work with a professional speed and precision is key to survive in this trade.
Does this time include all the finishing? Like buttons and buttonholes, pick stitching, etc?
33 stitches per minute is fast but absolutely realistic with practice. Big bonus is that the seams look so much better when sewn in a steady pace.
60 hours is start to finish, pattern drafting, cutting, baste and rebaste, three fittings, no machine except long seams, all internal work secured by hand and all exterior hand finished.
I'm a bit confused by the question... buttons, buttonholes and pick stitching etc are just tiny details in the big process of a tailored suit.
Pick stitching is easily done 2 metres per hour
Buttonholes 10- max 15 minutes each if done only by hand with a normal amount of stitches (140-150 in total) For a three piece suit this makes 10 on the jacket, 6 on the waistcoat and 4 in the fly. Sums up to a maximum of 4 hours if sewing super slowly (10 stitches per minute)
Professional finishers make them unbelievingly perfect in about 3 minutes.
I don't want to insult anyone but if a professional claims to spend 100 hours on a suit, I'd like to watch the process...
QuoteI'm a bit confused by the question... buttons, buttonholes and pick stitching etc are just tiny details in the big process of a tailored suit.
Just wondering if all the various stages are included in the final tally.
Yes of course it is.
I think it's rather important to speak up against this 80-100 hour idea. It misleads the young tailors and our customers.
It hurts our own back. No one can make a living working that slow.
Also no reason whatsoever why we should spend twice as long doing the same things as they did 100 years ago.
TSjursen:
I'd love to see some of the old time logs posted here for reference if you're in possession of any?
Here is a time log from 1903, it comes from part five of the WDF Vincent books. The time logs are a sort of labour agreement between masters and unionized tailors that were set up in an effort to combat sweatshops and underpaying of outworkers. The first column is an average of logs from different parts of the country, the second column is the west end standard. Both of these are hours for hand work, and reductions were made for machine work. Hand work in this regard most likely means all seams stitched by hand, perhaps apart from the trouser seams and seams on overcoats (since the fabrics used were so thick, the seams on overcoats had to be pricked if done by hand and that takes about three times as long as regular sewing, if not more).
(https://i.postimg.cc/75xCX4dJ/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/75xCX4dJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/py1D1mRb/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/py1D1mRb)
Last time I clocked myself two years or so ago I spent 29 hours on a coat start to finish, including cutting (but not drafting) and two basted fittings. It is important to note though that I only counted the effective working hours; long lunch breaks, fooling around with colleagues, and the occasional beer in the evening is not included, although I think that these are important factors in a fair, meaningful and fulfilling work life. Likely I waste several hours per coat doing unnecessary stuff, but I am still nowhere close to 100 hours for a suit.
i heard, "From the better tailors, no machines allowed on the primus."
As far as I am aware at most savile row places the production of a suit is split up in small steps whilst there is someone doing just that fraction over and over again and nothing else on the product. Therefore they are very quick at what they do. One does just buttonholes for example, one just pockets and so on, often these people are freelancing or outworkers who only get payed by the piece. There is one guy working in his studio located in a cellar that gets jackets delivered just to make buttonholes for plenty of household names....
Also people pay to be at savile row for up to 5 years to learn the craft, whilst contributing to the work like hand stitching lining and so on....
I personally calculate 60 to 70 hours for a 3 piece suit, start to finish (from measurements to finished product). Buttonholes made by the buttonholer, not by hand. Horsehair canvas and chest piece, all traditionally made, the pattern, cutting out, fitting and markin up alterations made by one cutter, the baste fit and finishing of the jacket made by one tailor, baste fit and finishing of waistcoat and trousers made by another taylor. I know many other places that do the same or similar process within the same range of time.
Once the pattern is established, about three coats, the rest wouldn't take as long.
Wouldn't expect first quality to make buttonholes made by machine. Hand made is better. If buttonhole machines are so good why are Jean buttonholes so terrible? A machine is a machine, once paid for there, after, its near free.
So many of the Old tailors their hands were a blur in movement.
On the Row, most houses that still have in-house makers will break the suit down to a different tailor for each garment. Some houses have a pocket-maker, while finishing and to be honest a lot of making is done off Row by a journeyman. Trousers and waistcoats have historically been sent to outworkers with the coats being kept in-house.
The pay is mainly piece work with maybe a couple of exceptions. Trousers are only a couple of hundred if that and nowadays are all machine-made with zips and clips. Same with waistcoats, all machine-made with hand finishing. Coats are between £650 and about £1000 depending on the amount of hand sewing, the maker's skill level, experience and the House they're making for. And of course, speed is necessary to make a decent living as a maker. I'm not sure if the practice of hiring out boards to cutters, under-cutters, or tailors still exists but that used to be the way it was done.
Provincial tailors such as Des Merrion tend to pay a proper wage with all the benefits, not sure what it is, but knowing him it will be a decent liveable one.