I'm looking for a simple and handy explanation why a sleeve must be rotated (turned?) (for which figure type??) and how I can already incorporate this in the pattern construction. For myself it is always 1-1.5 cm rotation to the back. Especially with plaid fabric etc. it would be an immense time saver.
Sometimes I do not get it!
lg
posaune
Simple overview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvTOcrc1tU4
Thank you, Gerry. I must look it more times then one. I think the essence is that you must adjust the grain line to the angle of the arm hang. And the best way is to mark where at the front the sleeve is hanging? I attach a little drawing. Am I right? I have rotated the sleeve about 0.8 cm at shoulder each direction
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QznccwV/pitch.png) (https://postimg.cc/5QznccwV)
Caveat, just'a dumb ol'e Millwright's answer written late last night... Ma'am, I recall before a similar question when I found the answer in one of the computer drives in an old American book scan. Of course it's hidden in a terabyte or three now and illusive. What follows is about the same...
(https://i.postimg.cc/622f3wyx/Screenshot-4401.png) (https://postimg.cc/622f3wyx)
The above was taken from a 1935 Mitchell fur book and, since leather doesn't stretch, meets my 'pipefitter' view, in as much that it's right or wrong, fits or doesn't, no fudging or forcing allowed.
My take is use the scye depth as a pivot point/datum axis, directionally front or back, v. rotating the entire sleeve draft: cut horizontal line 3-13 and adjust pattern. It would allow plaids/lines to match and still afford customization for customer arm set. "Stock" "system" pitch points/marks would remain static and drags on a basted muslin sleeve would show needed direction correction. Below was taken from The Red Book by Croonborg:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m1VkW1BL/Screenshot-4402.png) (https://postimg.cc/m1VkW1BL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVhksG8d/Screenshot-4403.png) (https://postimg.cc/HVhksG8d)
Last is from Vincent:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pyVWfVDP/Screenshot-4406.png) (https://postimg.cc/pyVWfVDP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wyTCmvnP/Screenshot-4408.png) (https://postimg.cc/wyTCmvnP)
Generally, I can't say I've ever noticed pattern mismatch at the elbow, but sure do at and above scye depth. Hope this makes sense and is correct. I'm real interested in other views and methods.
The links below are for Sator's C&T. I think if one uses g00gle to open archive, when you save the file, it doesn't black out like microsqaush windows does here in the USA. The photos should still open independently, though ...Peace, Y'all.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130511001948/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2484
"A Sleeve System with Multiple Pitch Marks"
https://web.archive.org/web/20150912110300/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=850
"Grain of sleeve"
https://fashion-incubator.com/how-to-find-the-grainline-on-a-sleeve/
note: archive embedded link still worked but pulled direct from site.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150916233009/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2485
"Lounge and Sleeve Cutting System by Leonard Ostling" ..note: I'd not seen this before today as photobucket blacked out on my saved file. included anyway..
Added two more with sleeve drags caused by straightening arms v. standing at ease.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Th93WLFd/71925.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Th93WLFd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tY4CdRGh/gettyimages-3405048-1491412429.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tY4CdRGh)
Rather than thinking of the arm's position changing with posture, perhaps it's better to think of the arm as static: gravity ensures that (when relaxed) the upper arm hangs perpendicular to the floor and parallel to the body when posture is totally straight. We now consider the variants.
If someone stands with their hips forward, then the body leans back slightly, at an angle relative to the ground. The arm, when relaxed, is still perpendicular to the ground, but it is now tilted back relative to the slanting body/garment. If no adjustment is made, this will cause wrinkling at the back of the arm.
Conversely, if someone is hunched over, the body is angled forward relative to the ground. Again, the upper arm remains perpendicular to the floor, but relative to the body/garment it's now angled forward. Wrinkling is now at the front.
Yes, tailors mark the wrist position with chalk on the side of the garment, giving them an idea of where the sleeve should naturally sit.
I'm not a coat maker, BTW. I don't have practical experience of this, just a theoretical understanding.
By no means a coatmaker, but experiencend in womens' blazers. My bell starts ringing when a person has, what we call, a tilted hip or pelvis. This has much (if not everything) to do with weight and body length. Like Gerry indicates the "hang" of the arms is subject to gravity.
Generally, a taller or slimmer person with a strong enough back, will have a tendency to hunch with the axis of the arms changing accordingly.
A heavier person will have the endency to tilt their behind backwards so the arm will point more forward. The difference in angle in between a normal position of the behind and the pronounced tilted position is a good indication for correcting the sleeve-angle...
Not what I was looking for but near enough. If I understand, fabric grain to match plaids may should best come after a muslin?
(https://i.postimg.cc/PLVkzyYT/armswing.png) (https://postimg.cc/PLVkzyYT)
If you do a muslin!!!!! :-):-)
Now that is interesting, Steelmill, do you have the whole article? Interests me.
I played a bit around and draw something. I came to the conclusion that pivoting point would be center of the sleeve cap. I attach 2 drawings. first: rotating point is at cap bottom
(https://i.postimg.cc/4HYw3h9z/rotierte-rmel1png.png) (https://postimg.cc/4HYw3h9z)
second rotating point a center sleeve cap. I have drawn in the pitches back and front. To see if I could match the fabric
(https://i.postimg.cc/nCzsrj1P/rotierte-rmel2png.png) (https://postimg.cc/nCzsrj1P)
Where I do I err?
lg
posaune
I went to g00gle books for a link, but it looks like someone, likely g00gle, poached it. I'll keep looking to see if any are open to download still, but here are cropped screenshots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sjq7gwNQ/Screenshot-4502.png) (https://postimg.cc/Sjq7gwNQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JtcKmRdB/Screenshot-4501.png) (https://postimg.cc/JtcKmRdB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jwywHdJ6/Screenshot-4500.png) (https://postimg.cc/jwywHdJ6)
I think that to match a plaid or overcheck, the sleeve pattern needs split and the bottom rotated. The armhole would follow the original pitch marks. I thought DZ had something say about this before and was something similar.
I'll keep looking for what I found before as it was distinct and exacting. For me it was very interesting as I have large-ish muscles for an old guy and my arms often don't fit 'normal' sleeves in vertical drop or size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pys9H7xB/Screenshot-4503.png) (https://postimg.cc/pys9H7xB)
...and a photo of Princess Elizabeth with a bunch of arm drags in uniform...
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433090917554&view=1up&seq=147&skin=2021
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/ls?q1=The+American+tailor+and+cutter&field1=ocr&a=srchls&ft=ft&lmt=ft
PS Arm can only rotate from the joint (centre of the sleeve cap).
Quote from: Gerry on May 28, 2022, 03:15:50 PM
PS Arm can only rotate from the joint (centre of the sleeve cap).
...So to match plaids or overchecks, with fore/aft hanging arms, one would make a pattern like shown in Croonberg's book I posted earlier, right? Just find the customer arm angle and alter the draft to match, and keep original pitch marks so's plaid lines match and armhole insertion is 'easy'?
Does anyone have such a thing from Müller? I do not.
Thx Gerry.
As mentioned earlier, I don't have enough practical experience to give advice confidently. Re pattern-matching, I'd use some cheap material first just for sleeves and see how a fitting goes before pattern-matching expensive cloth. Regardless of how well something's drafted, the reality is often different. :)
Quote from: Gerry on May 29, 2022, 09:37:52 PM
A Regardless of how well something's... ...the reality is often different. :)
Ich auch. I apply the Pi principle: however long someone says it will take, multiply that times Pi. It's a closer estimate. No worries, no hurries.. Peace.
I'm not the quiet type now ......... I just want to get it.
Somewhere at Müller (year 1950 -60) I once saw pictures, they talk about the high or low inserted sleeve. (They changed the pitch to high and low) Nowadays I see a lot about cutting horizontal the upper sleeve cap and shoving the upper part to the back or the front respectively - trueing the seams afterwards.
Yep a muslin - how boring .-)) sigh
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/5XPcvdkp/Tailoring-Fitting-Sleeve-Hangs-Too-Far-Back.png) (https://postimg.cc/5XPcvdkp)
This may be of some help. Believe it works either way.
Didn't Jeffery Diduch discuss this somewhere?
As far as rotation goes, I think some of you have the rotation point to low.
Hi ho Y'all,
My language barrier is slowing me down a bit despite finding voluminous amounts online. For me the archive search feature is missing on the old C&T as well and I can't find a certain photo found elsewhere that I can't download. So far, IMHO, I still default to maintaining fabric grain to match weave lines in the draft stage. Knowing arm slope becomes critical. Attaching links that may be helpful with comments from "the usual subjects". Also, will stop by local big-box hardware to see what digital protractors are in stock v Amazon.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150907045639/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3143
https://web.archive.org/web/20151110095228/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58
https://web.archive.org/web/20150919124747/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2495
(https://i.postimg.cc/xk8CBdQB/Plaid-Sleeve-Mismatch.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xk8CBdQB)
Top photo is crop of my son out in public wearing store bought shirt...see anything amiss?
(https://i.postimg.cc/mPXZ3G9j/Screenshot-4677.png) (https://postimg.cc/mPXZ3G9j)
Never before seen Nevin photo cycling in style...
Randomly found in-stock digital protractor links:
https://www.woodsmith.com/review/digital-protractor/
https://www.amazon.com/Transmitter-Receiver-Computer-Bluetooth-Headphone/dp/B07F2DM331/?tag=aim-ws1-20
https://www.amazon.com/digital-protractor/s?k=digital+protractor
I've heard interviews with a number of tailors who use phone apps to determine shoulder slope etc. No idea what they're called though. There are certainly angle meter apps, as well as related apps to determine body shape/angles. No idea if they're relevant:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.stfactory.anglemeter&hl=en_GB&gl=US
http://www.drgoniometer.com
http://nettelo.com/nettelo-app/
first view ;) the plaid of the sleeve is upside down
Thanks for the old C&T excerpt.
Now measuring the shoulder slope. I do it with my Ipad, there is an app out there. But: with ladies I don´t know if you can use it. I fear the body shoulder slope you measure is an result from pattern back shoulder slope and pattern front shoulder slope.
If I measure a slope about 21° it maybe that I have 19° in front of the pattern because of my bust and 23 ° in back which results in 19+23= 42/2 = 21 cm. If I draft a armhole in front for a 21 slope maybe it will gape?
I have found a good discription for rotating the sleeve in the book : Maatwerk passvorm correcties written by Rianet Knevel. I'll do a scan later.
lg
posaune
That would be very interesting posaune.
LG
G
I just did a photo. I fear for the books condition when scaning, it is made with heavy paper and only glued together
(https://i.postimg.cc/PPtHG3Qr/knievels.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPtHG3Qr)
This is a very nice book. One of the best I have seen. But you can buy it only used - if!
lg
posaune
Came out fine, Ma'am. Doesn't answer the plaid match though, does it.
Quote from: posaune on June 03, 2022, 08:33:16 PM
first view ;) the plaid of the sleeve is upside down
Thanks for the old C&T excerpt.
Yeah, he's worn worse in his current college years. ;D
Glad the links work for EU searches, Ma'am.
Quote from: posaune on June 03, 2022, 08:33:16 PM
If I draft a armhole in front for a 21 slope maybe it will gape?
It's difficulty like that, for women's pattern especially, which makes me think older pattern systems work better v. 'unidimensional cuts' meant for maximum factory outputs. But I don't know.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z9bHYXDX/costume.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z9bHYXDX)
Thx to Greger for posting long ago.
The quickest sketch of the text possible, before bed:
ANGLED PLEATS IN THE BACK SLEEVE
The sleeve is tilted too far back
In someone with a very upright posture, who pulls his shoulders back strongly, but also in a wheelchair who always rests with the elbows on the railing, the upper arm often goes back more than normal. A standard sleeve insert gives a permanent pinching feeling and limits the freedom of movement.
Pleated pattern (Fig. 291)
From the back of the upper arm pleats run to the sleeve cap. The first fold is already in the armsgap, the last one is just above the elbow.
Changes
Changing existing clothing
1. The point a of the sleeve is opposite the shoulder seam of the piece. If necessary, mark this with a basting thread to see how much the sleeve will be tilted.
2. Remove the sleeve from the armhole.
3. Tilt the sleeve cap so that the point on the sleeve is in front of the shoulder seam. The bottom of the sleeve now points more to the back.
4. Place the sleeve back into the armhole.
...parrots vincent from earlier... Found surfing the web... Is this then the best way, again focus on plaid pattern match?
(https://i.postimg.cc/GTrMFG8B/Page166cropscreenshot.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GTrMFG8B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R63RwGZV/Page166drafting.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R63RwGZV)
Below sleeve related, but not the plaid pitch match answer. Posting for to capture.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150906223342/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=494
The balance of the coat can be found by using one pin. The balance of the sleeve can be found the same way. The one pin method is really easy and fairly quick. With the sleeves you use one pin to hold the sleeve in place at the top. If it is not perfect you pull the pin out and shift the sleeve left right up down until it looks right and pin it. When you do it this way your brain is thinking without numbers and diagrams. For some people this is way faster. When doing this you pick visual clues about the body, the person, body stance and other details. With this developing method you begin to draw your patterns accordingly. Add a bit of inlay for final corrections.
For beginners a muslin is wise. It is also blank. That means stripes of vertical and horizontal can be marked for cutting the outer cloth.
Some tailors think too many diagrams and numbers are a waste of time. Some are helpful, of course. Pin fitting is quick but, pay attention to movement. Some garments hang nicely but, with movement, are a mess.
Diagrams and numbers develope certain parts of the brain as does other methods other parts of the brain. Everyone's brain is wired different. With tailoring speed and accuracy brings in the money. To much time with numbers and diagrams is anti-profit.
the sleeve rotation can be influenced with the position of the side seam/underarm notch on the sleeve, relative to the front armhole notch, when drafting. if you raise or lower the side seam position on drafting, keeping the front armhole notch constant, the pitch is changed
(https://i.postimg.cc/SXHDtMjn/posaune.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXHDtMjn)
Posaune, I found this, does this help?
All the more I have on this is some Pendelton plaid for inspiration...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kV4K0hz5/pendelton-posaune.png) (https://postimg.cc/kV4K0hz5)
Some good, general advice about sleeves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIhatMDDOLo
Everyone, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for consolidating all of this onto one thread again!
I have sloped, narrow, forward shoulders with the outside elbows and apparently didn't print everything off in the last discussion. I'm going to print this whole thread this time for safe keeping!
-Tina
Going back to the subject of matching plaid, this is the approach of Henry Poole (23:44 mark onwards)
https://youtu.be/N88IWPf0YeA?t=1424
And the end result shown here (14:10 mark)
https://youtu.be/onjj4bPBkm4?t=850
Plenty of inlay seems to be order of the day.
In the second video, he also mentions that over 50 hours go into the standard two piece to get to the second fitting.
Just to reference the other thread. So finishing is still needed after the second fitting.
For his four piece shooting suit it is in excess of 80 hours.
In all fairness Terri, the British take a lot of tea breaks.
Tea breaks are essential!
Terri is completely correct.
G
How many tea breaks do they need?
The fact is, rents in Savile Row (and much of the West End) are ridiculously high. Which is why the suits cost so much. I can't help feeling that the Row exaggerate the amount of hours they take to justify said high prices; and dissuade customers from looking elsewhere (where in reality they can often find the same quality but a little cheaper).
Quote from: Gerry on August 17, 2022, 09:35:05 AM
The fact is, rents in Savile Row (and much of the West End) are ridiculously high. Which is why the suits cost so much. I can't help feeling that the Row exaggerate the amount of hours they take to justify said high prices; and dissuade customers from looking elsewhere (where in reality they can often find the same quality but a little cheaper).
I think thats a general issue in the industry. I remember the shirt company "100 hands" claiming they need 35 hours for a shirt with 45 minutes for each buttonhole. Although the do make great shirts and the handwork is wonderful, those claims just sound highly exaggerated (I timed my handmade buttonholes with 7-10 minutes each, depending on the thread). Might be the same with tailoring company, some viennese Tailors claim up to 80 hours for a three piece suit.
They're either exaggerating, or they watch a lot of porn at work.
My dad told me 60 hrs, including "song and dance"(fitting and correction) should do it for a two piece suit.
65 hours has been in my mind, but I can't find where I read it or any of the time charts I used to have. And that's purely inexperience talking.
Few tea breaks...
...Y'all gotta funny way of spelling 'coffee'... But I do drink that see-through-stuff when I need a caffeine change to shock the system, like detoxing ;D
Quote from: posaune on June 03, 2022, 08:33:16 PM
first view ;) the plaid of the sleeve is upside down
Thanks for the old C&T excerpt.
Now measuring the shoulder slope. I do it with my Ipad, there is an app out there. But: with ladies I don´t know if you can use it. I fear the body shoulder slope you measure is an result from pattern back shoulder slope and pattern front shoulder slope.
If I measure a slope about 21° it maybe that I have 19° in front of the pattern because of my bust and 23 ° in back which results in 19+23= 42/2 = 21 cm. If I draft a armhole in front for a 21 slope maybe it will gape?
I have found a good discription for rotating the sleeve in the book : Maatwerk passvorm correcties written by Rianet Knevel. I'll do a scan later.
lg
posaune
What app are you using with your ipad? I want to try that too.
Quote from: TTailor on August 13, 2022, 10:26:54 PM
In the second video, he also mentions that over 50 hours go into the standard two piece to get to the second fitting.
Just to reference the other thread. So finishing is still needed after the second fitting.
For his four piece shooting suit it is in excess of 80 hours.
Where can I watch the movies?
Posted earlier in the thread :)
https://youtu.be/N88IWPf0YeA?t=1424
https://youtu.be/onjj4bPBkm4?t=850
From this series:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNeFpbTnJYLwZ-rYSLedE7ZN-UiyYlEKz
Zuschneider,
it is named iPadAngleMeter. My iPad is about 15 cm so I never had to use a flat ruler to "overbridge" (überbrücken) the hollow.
lg
posaune
I installed it, looks like would be working really good in camera mode.