Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Apprentices => Drafting, Fitting and Construction => Topic started by: TTailor on April 20, 2021, 04:32:48 AM

Title: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: TTailor on April 20, 2021, 04:32:48 AM
Hello All,
I recently needed to produce some children's costuming for a tv/film job, and I only had The book Metric Pattern Cutting for Childrens wear by Aldrich as a drafting reference.

So, even though I am trying not to purchase more books, I bought a book called Fashion Patternmaking techniques for Children's Clothing by Antonio Donnanno. His books are originally in Italian, and this is an English translation.

My question is regarding the sizing chart included in the book. One of the measurements is called Bust Divergence.
I am at a loss as to what this measurement means.

Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas about this? I don't see it referenced in the measurement diagram, nor do I see it in any of the basic drafts so far.

If an example helps - for the 12 month size the bust circ. is 49 cm, waist 48.5, hip 50  front chest width 20.8 sector (armhole width) 6.7  and bust divergence is 13 cm.

I can scan the chart and post it if that helps. It is in very very fine print, which is really unfortunate since all the diagrams are quite large and easy to read.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: peterle on April 20, 2021, 06:56:58 AM
Searched the web a little and found out the italian term is Divergenza seni usually found in ladies size tabels:

http://mrsartoria.it/Misure/Corpini/corpini.htm (http://mrsartoria.it/Misure/Corpini/corpini.htm)

The text says: "Divergenza seno: you get it by measuring the distance between the breast centers"

With the illustration I´m pretty sure its the bust tip distance.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: TTailor on April 20, 2021, 08:15:09 AM
Thanks so much!
I didn't try translating back to Italian to search.
Bust point to bust point i guess.
Not a measurement I expected to be included or needed  in a newborn to preteen size chart.


Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Schneiderfrei on April 20, 2021, 10:08:36 AM
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, Everything looks like a nail"   Maslow

The author didn't look far from their desktop to write the book. ;)

G
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: peterle on April 20, 2021, 06:55:53 PM
It would have been enough to translate it with "bust distance" instead of bust divergence.

Yes, it´s surprising to find it on a children´s table.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Despos on April 26, 2021, 12:35:46 AM
My first thought was locating the fullest point of the bust measured down from the neck point. Relating to a high or low bust point. Would help you to find the fullest point on the chest and where to place the darts
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: peterle on April 26, 2021, 05:29:00 PM
@ Despos:
This measurment is called "ALTEZZA CENTRO SENO = bust point height" in the linked article.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Schneiderfrei on April 26, 2021, 09:00:52 PM
Could it not be: "Height of the bust centre?
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: TTailor on April 26, 2021, 09:55:50 PM
It could be vertical  measurement.
It is too bad that it is not shown in the "how to take the measurements" illustration, nor have I found it used in the drafts yet.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Schneiderfrei on April 26, 2021, 10:12:22 PM
Ages ago Schneidergott posted an Italian Shirt draft by Ciraci.

One thing that held me back from doing the draft was the measurement - semiampiezza dorso

It was completely unexplained, and Schneidergott could find no other reference to this in his literature at the time.

It would be great if someone could post an Italian measurement system.

Here is the draft:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=1044.0

G
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: peterle on April 27, 2021, 03:46:48 AM
I checked the book "il modellismo by l´ínstituto di moda Burgo by Ferdinando Burgo. It is an italian pattern drafting book covering female, male and children drafts and looks totally the same as the Donnanno patterns, and is partly in italian and english. I think the Donanno books are just the contemporary version (although with a bad translator and lector)
This book also uses these measurements in the ladies part:
"Bust height: measure from shoulder at neck to the bust point"
"Breast distance: the distance between the two bust points".
The "basic bodice pattern with dart and full bust" uses this measurments for findig the bust dart point. (A1- N and N-N1)
The children part of the book doesn´t use these measurements.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Despos on April 27, 2021, 08:59:44 AM
One translation for ”semiampiezza dorso” I found is “half shoulder”

Just saw another translation as “half back”
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Greger on April 27, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Getting kind of confusing now.  How could it be so many places?
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Schneiderfrei on April 27, 2021, 08:37:32 PM
I appreciate your confusion greger, I'm confused as well.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Hendrick on April 28, 2021, 07:13:50 PM

I asked an Italian friend; according to his "modellista", it is simply the half distance between the back-arm points. I.e. at the height where the distance between armholes is at its shortest; over the shoulderblades, not the shoulders...

cheers
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Greger on April 30, 2021, 01:17:49 PM
Hendrick, I may have heard that decades ago. Because the shoulder blades are an important part of the garment area. If it doesn't fit right there, got to have room for movement, it's an improper cut if it hinders shoulder blade movements. I know there is a measurement method for that. Not all tailors use it. It can be used to check the pattern before cutting.
It probably came from a shoulder pattern system. As far as I know there could be 10 different kinds of these measurements back when "everyone" was producing their pattern system.
Another purpose for this sort of measurement is a  location for adding or subtracting ease. Don't want to be slavish to pattern directions.
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Hendrick on May 01, 2021, 05:36:27 AM

I like the slightly exotic systems for measuring. Elsewhere on the forum there was a discussion about the term "bust divergeance", we usually call them chestpoints or bustpoints. My dad used to measure, with a tape measure around the back neck, over both chestpoints down to the exact 1/8 at waist height. He asked then for a person to rest on their right leg  first and left after that. He could tell exactly the amount of scoliosis a person had...
Title: Re: Bust Divergence? Donnanno drafts
Post by: Schneiderfrei on May 01, 2021, 06:08:02 PM
Hi Hendrick,  that sounds like thorough measurement.

My day job is a physical therapist, I look at bodies that closely, I am slowly trying to weave together my body work and my knowledge of tailoring.

I'm going to try it out.

G