Hello all! New here on the forum.
I've searched through the various posts and didn't come across this topic. I am making a linen suit for my husband. He has very straight posture, a slight belly, a full chest/pectoral muscles, and broad shoulders. He's stocky/well built plus a bit well fed. I have drafted 18th century vests for him and eliminated those issues, but a more modern fit escapes me for some reason.
The issues I always run into for him with a vest is gapping at the neckline, especially if it is a higher one, and gapping at the arm hole. If he was a woman, I would do a full breast alteration with darts, but I have never seen darts at the armhole edge for a man. How can I compensate for an armhole dart - does it transfer to the vertical dart that starts at the waist?
I can get pictures tonight - it didn't occur to me to take them yesterday.
Thanks for any tips you can give me.
Pati
Hi PGithens,
Pictures will help enormously. I think that there would be an enormous diference between the 18C vests and modern ones. Cuts have evolved a lot since then. There has ever been a search for a truer fit, and 200 years is a long time. It will be a help to mention the names of the drafts/ patterns that you have used.
Just from your description I am thinking that you may be having problems with "vertical balance". The distance measured down the front of the chest vs that of the back. I wonder if your husband has a more erect posture. Images will help decide if you need to accommodate for this.
G
Hi! Thanks for the reply! I will get pictures tonight - though I think I am very close now! I ended up basically doing the equivalent of a FBA by curving the armscye and moving that to the dart.
Yes, my husband stands very straight with his shoulder back a bit! His shoulder blades are very flat. His girth is more in the front than the back. Hmmm, vertical balance....that may be it. In the 18th c fit, I often have to move the shoulder seam back further, pull up the front shoulder seam to remove wavy edges at the front edge.
I've tried drafting the pattern from Poulin's book, but I had trouble plotting a few of the points. I hope that makes sense. I ended up using a Burda pattern, comparing some lines to his 18th c waist coat pattern (like shoulder and chest width) and modifying from there by adding width to the front chest area, curving the armscye and moving that change to the waist dart. There is a post on here from a few years ago that shows a vest pattern - I will find it and link to it here - where they did just that.
The 18th c waist coats have a very snug fit, which made the full developed chest issue an even bigger problem then with the modern fit! He does not need chest padding, that's for sure!
Thanks!
Pati
I would make sure that you take some balance measurements for sure, as mentioned already.
Also if he has a belly, it needs to be addressed in the pattern, if the waist size is not dealt with, it can present as problems above the waist.
I would move the excess in the armhole into the vertical waist dart, if he needs a belly dart as well, it will be a compound dart.
A small amount of excess in the neckline can be eased in depending on your fabric.
If the waistcoat has a laid on collar you can hide a neckline dart under the collar.
If the waistcoat is double breasted, a centre front seam helps.
Pictures are helpful. Of the person and the pattern.
Quote from: TTailor on April 15, 2021, 11:06:42 PM
I would make sure that you take some balance measurements for sure, as mentioned already.
Also if he has a belly, it needs to be addressed in the pattern, if the waist size is not dealt with, it can present as problems above the waist.
I would move the excess in the armhole into the vertical waist dart, if he needs a belly dart as well, it will be a compound dart.
A small amount of excess in the neckline can be eased in depending on your fabric.
If the waistcoat has a laid on collar you can hide a neckline dart under the collar.
If the waistcoat is double breasted, a centre front seam helps.
Pictures are helpful. Of the person and the pattern.
Vertical balance measurements - how are they taken?
The belly is addressed in the pattern - that part fit him well! The excess from the armhole was moved into that vertical front dart - and seems to help the armhole gapping problem.
I'm using linen but I think I will be able to ease the neckline a bit.
Here are a couple pictures from when I made him leather breeches. He's the same size now. Broad, stocky, a little belly, straight posture. I will get a couple pictures of him tonight in the vest pattern and the issues.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7CqckQqy/front.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7CqckQqy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3y9qJCw0/side.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3y9qJCw0)
Thanks!
This might help, too. A photo from the back. His pants are done now. He has a looooong torso and short legs. I try to make his silhouette proportional whenever possible.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YjQVccWj/trousers.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YjQVccWj)
QuoteVertical balance measurements - how are they taken?
Well there are a couple of methods.
When you take measurements, you need something to indicate the waist. I use a twill tape.
I find it useful then to take a nape to centre back waist measurement as well as a nape to CF waist measurement.
From Zuschnitt der Herrenkleidung they measure a calculated amount for the back neck, mark it with chalk or a pin on the person being measured then measure from that point down to the back waist and again to the front waist.
Let me see if I can upload some photos of this process.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GHJk8f4q/4-F4-B1106-57-D6-4-ED2-9-A6-F-1-CF226055-F36.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GHJk8f4q)
oh that's wonderful! Thank you! I will do that tonight. I measured as instructed in the Poulin's book - from the center back at nape of neck to chest for the neck opening and from the back at the nape of neck down the front on an angle to the bottom of the vest.
Here are some photos from a muslin I did the other day - unpinned.........
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJ3PM0SH/back-Unpinned.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJ3PM0SH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R6cTF9Rp/front-Vest.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6cTF9Rp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBkc40ry/right-Side.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBkc40ry)
.....and pinned.......
(https://i.postimg.cc/62wMCyyx/back-Pinned.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/62wMCyyx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QKdSnwQ6/front-Pinned.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QKdSnwQ6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/620Yctv2/right-Side-Pinned.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/620Yctv2)
There is still some extra fabric at the back under the shoulder blade at armpit level. That will also get pinned out......
I think there are some issues in the toile:
The whole back ist put too low. The back center neck should meet the collar seam of the shirt, so it is positioned about 5cm too low that´s also the reason for the extra fabric in the back armhole.
I also think the center front line is too straight for the figure. It seems to be a straight vertical line. This will cause a looseness over the chest when pinned close over the protruding belly. To compensate you rotated the whole piece on the body and that´s why the back is too low.
So in my eyes you have to create some room for the belly. The measurements tell you wether to choose a "forward belly posture" alteration or a "beginning belly figure"alteration: A waist measure of 8-10cm less than the chest measure indicates a "normal proportion" figure but with forward belly posture. A waist measure of 2-4cm less than the chest measure is called a "beginning belly figure"(at least in German).
Both pattern versions will result in a belly point ( center front at waist level line) that protrudes the chest point (center front at chest level line).This is needed because the belly protrudes the chest also in nature.
I think it might help to show us a photo of the pattern.
I agree with peterle, the back is sitting too low, the neckline is too wide.
Have you made alterations to the pattern in these photos, or is this straight from the draft?
Thank you for the observations! So his measurements are:
chest: 45.5" (114.3cm)
waist: 40.5" (101.6cm)
That is a 5" difference, but his belly does protrude to the front. Yes, the front seam is on the vertical, but the fabric over the chest was very tight and gapped at the armhole edges like it does for a larger bust woman before a full bust alteration. I don't know why it doesn't show in the pictures.
The muslin is a modified version of the Burda pattern. Here's the Burda pattern unmodified:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dLgYKLHM/burda-vest.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLgYKLHM)
I made a FBA and transferred the extra fabric to the vertical dart so it is larger now. I also added a bit of width at chest level and just above because it was too small in the upper chest area. The center front for the top two buttons would not close if I didn't add that in. I can pull the back up to the collar, which will eliminate that issue. Should I also pull the front up to be closer to the collar?
And I apologize if I haven't answered the questions well - I'm in the middle of a lovely sinus infection. Allergies....I hate them!
I hope you get well soon....
I´m not familiar with readymade patterns, but when I´m right, the pattern says you will end up with a garment chest width of 125 cm with your chosen size. This should be enough for a 114cm chest. A FBA and additional chest width for the upper buttons will enlarge the chest width even more. So I think there is a mistake somewhere on the way.
I would restart the fitting with the unmodified burda pattern and care for the right placement of the center back neck.
Thanks...it forces me to sit down and I get to be a sloth cruising the internet.
So I thought the same exact thing as you do about the width of the pattern! I thought "yay! For once I wouldn't have to do a lot of modifying." I first tried it unmodified on my husband but there was too much fabric in the back and not enough in the front to meet at center front. This is very typical when I fit vests or jackets on him. And the top part of the front above the chest sort of looked like a DD-cup woman wearing a tiny bikini top - not a good look for the woman or my husband.
If my husband stands with his shoulders hunched forward a bit, then the pattern fits him both in the front and back and meets in the center front all the way down. If I were to cut him vertically along the side seams and measured his front half to his back half, then his front would be larger by about 3-3.5 inches.
I tried the muslin from the photos on him earlier today and raised the back to hit the bottom of the collar. The excess fabric under the arm went away! Thank you - you were right about it being too low. And it was still long enough to cover his waistband.
I get a bit frustrated because whenever I draft a pattern from a book for him, like Poulin's, the pattern ends up needing a lot of tweaks. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong because I'd rather draft a decent pattern knowing I will have some tweaking to do than use a commercial pattern that I have to do a LOT of tweaking to. Burda patterns seem the best for him. I wish I knew German because I'd love to learn more about the one German drafting method.
I need to make a good sloper to fit him and work the patterns from there. I have the McClunn book about drafting patterns - maybe it's time to reread it. Again....
And thank you for your time!
Well, that´s how it is. A pattern draft is always for a - indeed hardly existing- standard body. It always has to be tweaked.
Just to sort it out: The back of the Burda waistcoat pattern I ´ve found consists of a big part of lining fabric and a curved strip of fashion fabric at the neck. Did You incorporate this small strip into your toile?
That made me laugh - the elusive standard body - you're absolutely right, it doesn't really exist...
I believe the back strip on the Burda pattern is the facing on the inside and attaches to the lining - I will double-check that.
I decided to go back to step 1 and try the unmodified Burda pattern on my husband. I removed the seam allowance around the armhole so the paper wouldn't rip and folded the darts. And I know that the paper isn't the best thing to use for a mock-up, but I figured I could start somewhere. Here are the pictures and what I found:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QHFn7hbb/burda-back-unmodified.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHFn7hbb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QF546mvK/burda-front-unmodified.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QF546mvK)
What I see as modifications - and please tell me if I am wrong or missing something!
- In the back photo, the top doesn't reach the middle of his back. I folded over the seam allowance.
- I also need to lower the waist by a couple inches.
- On the front, the center front of the vest at chest level is not lined up with the center of his chest (center body line). It angles out towards his arm by just about an inch.
- The bottom of the center front overlaps the center body line. It angles in and crosses his naval by about an inch.
- There's two little folds at the top. One at the neckline and one at the armhole. Those would fix the gaps.
This part is frustrating but also fun because it challenges me to learn what is going on with the fit.
The vest pattern 6871 needs the strip to complete the back pattern.
https://sewandrew.com/2018/02/16/suitable-intentions-waistcoat/ (https://sewandrew.com/2018/02/16/suitable-intentions-waistcoat/)
I´m sure, this will solve a lot of your fitting issues. ;)
Holy moley!!!! You are so right!!!!!
I looked at the pattern again and indeed, there are TWO back band pieces! The one clue that I had was they tell you to cut two pieces (That's what 2x means. how did i miss that?) and the next one was the drawing where it shows how to sew the shoulder seam.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tsLQqBFk/burda-backpieces.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsLQqBFk)
See that little picture? That is the back shoulder seam and it shows two back band pieces.....Burda patterns are brief in their wording, but once you get used to them, they are golden. As you can tell, I'm not used to them yet....
Sigh, back to the muslin again! Thank you!
Something additional to consider is his height; the pattern may be based on a shorter standard, and what the pattern is using as its standard chest and waist measurements.
Compare these to your husband's measurements.
Good suggestion. He's short in height to his width, if that makes sense. He's only 5'10" and broad.
Off to find that info.....
Apologies for the response delay! Decided to take a break and think about all the suggestions and start from square one.
I made a mock-up using the unmodified Burda vest pattern, and included the back back (quell surprise! it makes a difference!). I added about 3/4" to the front edges at the shoulder seam to move the back to the correct position on the back. Then to remove some extra fabric at the armhole edge, I opened up the vertical front dart a bit more. I also added a little - less than 1/2" - to the front side seams, tapering to under the arm, to straighten out the side seam. Then onto a fabric muslin and a couple tweaks to that.
On to the real fabric and I ended up having a gap at the armhole again!!! Arrrgghhh! So I eased in that 1/2" or less gap when I put in the lining and eased the front lapel edge a little bit so it was no longer wavy. When I have the buttonholes done and buttons sewn on, I'll post a picture. The buttonholes will be done by hand as usual in buttonhole silk twist. The vest is unlined in the back because this is for the summer under a suit jacket, also linen and the next project on the list.....
And THANK YOU all for the tips and suggestions and pointing out when pattern pieces are left out..... ;)