Quote from: Gerry on Today at 07:12:33 AMQuote from: Chanterelle on Today at 06:18:11 AMI appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
A ruler-straight centre back seam isn't going to flatter anyone, frankly; nor one with the slightest curve at its base, for that matter. Which is why so many people have saggy backsides to their jeans. The reason why many manufacturers have stuck with the old style of cut is because of ease of manufacture. It's much simpler to sew a double-lapped CB seam if it has little or no curvature. People forget that these cutting systems were for utilitarian wear, not for looking fashionable.
The rock and roll generation, who popularised jeans, sat in a bath full of water with their jeans on, in order to shrink them and get a better fit over the seat and thighs. Nowadays cloth is pre-shrunk so that doesn't work (not unless you buy those specially resurrected Levis 501s where the cloth isn't pre-shrunk). Hence all the ill-fitting jeans nowadays. So you have to ask yourself, have jeans ever looked good on you? If not, then you'll probably never have much success with them. Stick to trouser drafts and forget the selvedge look (my eyes tend to roll when I hear the word).
As for drafting selvedge jeans, start with the side seam. Simply draw a straight line, which becomes your reference for the circumference measurements. Modern bespoke makers tend to curve the side seam from the seat position to the high-hip/waist-seam; though the curvature is very subtle. This prevents the jeans from slipping off the hips of someone. You can see that reflected in Hendrick's diagrams. The quarter waist measurement is still taken from the side seam though. It's just a little displaced.
As for a yoke, just imagine pivoting normal trouser darts by 90 degrees, around each apex. The pivoted darts are incorporated into the seamline of the yoke. Plenty of vids on youtube demonstrate how to pivot darts. I wouldn't draft things like that, incidentally, but it will help to get clear in your mind the basic concept, especially if you practice with a scrap of paper.
Edit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid. Anyone know who I'm talking about? (and could you post a link?). And I didn't mean Paul Kruize, but simply got his nationality wrong; this guy is definitely German (he has a moustache IIR).
Quote from: Chanterelle on Today at 06:18:11 AMI appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
Quote from: Chanterelle on Today at 06:18:11 AMQuote from: Hendrick on Today at 05:59:16 AMThere is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.
Cheers, Hendrick
I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.
In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing
Quote from: Hendrick on Today at 05:59:16 AMThere is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: TTailor on February 06, 2025, 11:04:45 PMThere are two editions. I have a photocopy of one that I got in 1988 and a later edition. I doubt the sleeve section is very different.
I have the later edition at work and I will try to scan that one for you.
The earlier copy is packed away at the moment.
Quote from: Hendrick on October 13, 2024, 07:50:45 PMHi all,
I spent a few years consulting for jeans co's. Denim jeans are not drafted like trousers. The pattern of, say a Levis's 501, is drafted with the side seams as straight as possible and cut with the sides following the selvedge of the fabric. Denim was, originally, woven on narrow looms so economics were important. I effect, the only shaping in an original jean is in the yoke (or riser) and the front pocket. No serging was done on the outseam, only the part holding the pocket lining ($). As yo can see in the image, the midback of the pant is extremely tilted and straight; this gives the 501 its famous "diaper"effect. At the same time, being cut nearly bias, it ad ads more flex to the pant than a hollow fork. I know this is a little extreme but to me 5pockets pants with a trouser cut always look a little unusual. A while ago I posted something about the foldline in trousers, I believe Gerry did also... Here you can see that the foldline is completely disregarded.
Cheers, Henndrick