Shoulder Measure Systems - The Coatmaker's Forum

[mysewingpleasure]

HAPPY SEPTEMBER to everyone, it seems ages since last time I came to post a request. I run across a pinterest who post a lot of pictures from the old Cutter and Tailor about the Shoulder Measure Systems, which cannot be open. Is there any chance that you can bring this forum back here?
Here is the webpage.
https://www.pinterest.ch/lilpolarbear/thorntons/

Can I ask a silly question? I would like to find a good system to learn how to draft suits for menswear, I do not know how well I can understand the measure system and can draft different attitudes and postures of different customers. I cannot understand another language than English, even not good at English too. Please help me with any suggestion!

[Hendrick]

Hi, if you are (relatively) new to pattern drafting, I would get something easy like this first; "Metric pattern cutting for menswear" by Winifred Aldrich. It is not, primarely, a book for tailoring but it helps you on your way with pattern drafting. It is used by fashion schools and students the world over as a starter. It will also help you later to understand more sophisticated drafts as you go along...

Good luck!

[pfaff260]

I agree with Hendrick. Especially her book book on childrens clothing is very good. Men and women are a bit 80's.

[mysewingpleasure]

Thanks to your recommendation, I have the book you mentioned, and I have been using it recently. It gives me good result when I have "normal" attitude and for young people figures. I do not have any difficulty until recently I started to have some middle age customers.
On the other hand, I would like to learn more about German/European system. Years ago, I used to go to old Cutter and Tailor forum, I saw a lot of "old" systems, some were translate to English, I have been indulged in the photos of the drafting, but never could make a time to start learning to draft them. Now I have just retired this year, I can now have more leisure time, it is the perfect timing, I would like to go for it. I am looking for German/European systems, in English language, so that I can widen my knowledge about drafting men's garment. The other day, from Pinterest, I saw a few pictures about the Shoulder Measure Systems and many other about drafting the men's jackets, unfortunately, all of them could not be reached. It is very sad, all the treasures are vanished. I love to learn how the system can enrich my drafting ability.

[Hendrick]

Mmm, another good reference would be the "fundamentals' book, menswear, from Mueller & Sohn, it can be ordered from their website. They also have a magazine that you can subscribe to and has a digital version as well...  I agree that the older drafts, not to mention the sometimes exotic ways of measuring, look intriguing... I tried many of those but beware, they are proportionately far, far away from todays morphology. The results are sometimes quite "special".

Good luck!

[Schneiderfrei]

'Special',  I like that.

[mysewingpleasure]

Hendrick, thank you for your reference, I find the Download: Fundamentals Menswearfrom Muller & Sohn, this is the best book I can imagine.  Recently, I found again The New Mitchell System - Lounge Coat System in the other Cutter and Tailor website, I was so excited that it included a lot of drafting for different figures. However, I saw there are two response about it had some errors. It is a bad news for me, since i may not be able to how to recognize them.

[Schneiderfrei]

I would bet you can recognise them, because they will stick out on the paper draft.  The problem is knowing how and why they are wrong.  It's pobably worth having a look.

[Hendrick]

More "special"...

[Schneiderfrei]

I get it,

[TTailor]

Hendrick, thank you for your reference, I find the Download: Fundamentals Menswearfrom Muller & Sohn, this is the best book I can imagine.  Recently, I found again The New Mitchell System - Lounge Coat System in the other Cutter and Tailor website, I was so excited that it included a lot of drafting for different figures. However, I saw there are two response about it had some errors. It is a bad news for me, since i may not be able to how to recognize them.

I would not recommend this book as a starting point for you.
There are drafts for different figures, and as an exercise you could draft them up (maybe in half scale) just to see what he recommends for figure corrections.
I also would not recommend starting with a shoulder measure system like thorntons. It is a period draft that will be so far from a modern draft that it would not be productive.
Start with something more modern,  Müller system would be my first recommendation, metric Pattern Cutting for menswear second.

[mysewingpleasure]

Thanks to everyone responded to me! my son bought this book : Patternmaking for menswear by GarethKershaw. but I prefer using Metric Pattern Cutting for Menswear by Winifred Aldrich for drafting suit for young people. Until I got a customer who is what is called corpulent. bust 48, waist 44, seat 55.5. Alas! it is very challeging! I had made it up for fitting soon. I cannot imagine how it will turn out.

[Thom Bennett]

I have both books and find Aldrich a better to understand book, she really goes into the instructions. I find Kershaw more of a book geared towards his own students. If you are more interested in tailoring and not fast fashion then Aldrich is definitely the one I would choose from the two.

[TTailor]

Thanks to everyone responded to me! my son bought this book : Patternmaking for menswear by GarethKershaw. but I prefer using Metric Pattern Cutting for Menswear by Winifred Aldrich for drafting suit for young people. Until I got a customer who is what is called corpulent. bust 48, waist 44, seat 55.5. Alas! it is very challeging! I had made it up for fitting soon. I cannot imagine how it will turn out.

That will be a very challenging figure to make a pattern for and to fit.
Unfortunately, Metric pattern cutting does not explain how to make changes to the pattern for bodies that are not standard. Most of the books in English do not.
I feel that the best book(s) for showing the pattern changes required for different body shapes is the older German texts. They take great care in showing this.
Of course you have to be able to really analyse the body and their shape as measurements and shape are two very different things. Experience helps a lot, so taking something like this on when you are starting is going to be perhaps more of a challenge than you realize.

[Schneiderfrei]

Mysewingpleasure,

The measurements you have are not for a corpulent person.  'Corpulent' strictly refers to a person who's waist measurement is larger than the bust measurement.  That doesn't mean a person who is merely obese.  Your man had a chest 48 and a waist 44 (inches?)

The problem for an overwieght person who is not strictly corpulent is that the centre of gravity shifts far forward. so that the protrusion of the belly calls for a similar adjustment (added length in the front) to a corpulent draft in the front but at the back the change will be for a 'Hollow Back'.

Here is one I prepared earlier I am joking. But, with peterle's help I translated this some time ago.  It is still not exactly as you describe your man (who has a large seat 55, is it prominent?), but it has many elements of similarity.  It is a Rundschau article from the 1980's. you might use the draft but insert your own values, to get a closer result??

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=457

You must scroll down a bit to get to the translation.

Hollow back adjustments are beautifully presented in this article from the 50's. I posted it tonight. It concerns womens tailoring but the concepts are the same for men.

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=960

G