Drafting a new pattern

[Petruchio]

Hi there. After the discussion in the balance thread I decided to make a new draft, remeasuring everything. So I thought out of curiosity I would like to know what the different measurements mean for the pattern itself.

1. Concerning the balance itself I measured it with weighted tape measure from rundschau. Therefore marking Hs+1 from the spine (C7) and measuring the front and the back to the ground. If I read the draft correct the back balance in the standard draft is plus 1cm. I measured 156 in the front and 155,4 in the back. Therefore I might add 1,6 to the front?

2. I also measured Rh and At. Rh by placing a tape measure over the neck, bringing it to the back from the front under the armhole and fixate the two ends in the middle of the back by hand, then measuring with another tape measure from the lower edge on the neck to the upper edge on the back. I measured At by doing the opposite - laying the tape from the front neck to the back and wrapping it under the armhole to the front again, now measuring from the spine C7 over the chest to the tape measure. After subtracting Hs + 1 you should have At. So I measured 22,6 for Rh, and 26,6 for At. Since At is Rh + ease - 1cm, the draft would propose At = 23,6. So here I would add 3cm to the front balance, nearly double of the balance measurement itself.

3. Also on the matter of Rh. The proposed Rh from the proportional draft is 21,9 rather than the measured 22,6. Since in this case I thought this might have to do with sloping shoulders, I was wondering if you could incorporate this to the construction of the shoulder slope as well by setting a different angle. If so, how would one go about it?

4. I also tried to measure Rb and Bb and noticed, that Rb is significantly larger than the draft would suggest. I think this might have to do with rather protruding shoulder blades and I wonder how I should take that into account when constructing the pattern.

Now, I know this is rather convoluted and pretty technical, but I think it would really help me understand the drafting process better, so thanks for your patience in advance

[Petruchio]

btw... in case my rather clumsy description of how I measured Rh is a little confusing: I took it from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VmxRoInFAk

you can see how he measures the armhole depth at 19:12

[posaune]

Your ideas are quite right Petruchio.
1.6 more in front is okay.
You say your Rh is 0.7 cm lower than the proportional draft (which is not much). I would draft the pattern with your Rh and  have in mind to pinch out the shoulder seam in the first fitting if requiered because of the shoulder slope (both front and back). If you know the amount you can later incorporate it in future drafts. (example: subtract 2.7 instead of 2 at back shoulder)
I would not realy trust the At measurement. It will result in a long front armhole (and high neckhole).
Draft after the balance difference and let a big seam allowance at the front shoulder seam.
You take your measured Rb. If you have such shoulderblades you must add length as well. And it may be already in your balance measurement  as you have done it  (if you measured over your clothes).
But add some amount to the Bu. If you have not incorporated the shoulderblades into that measurement. You must go over your bust points then high up in the armholes and up to the blades. You see how wrong this measure can get because of the different levels it is measured. Or you measure each value extra.
lg
posaune

[peterle]

A lot of questions. Please use English terms instead of German abbriviations so everyone can participate.
Rb= back width, Bb = chest width, Rh= back armhole depth, At is front armhole depth.
Lets do it systematically:
First the measurements: Back width: pull the customers shirt forward under the arms, wich causes folds at the back where the arm meets the body. Measure across from fold to fold over the shoulder blades.
Same for the chest width.
Your pattern should have the same relations: when your back is 2cm wider than the chest, shift the armhole forward till the back is 2cm wider than the chest. This is done when you divide up the chest line at the beginning of the drafting process.
Armhole depth: while measuring from C7 be sure to slide your thumb under the tape to "bridge" the hollow area between the baldes. Otherwise your back armhole depth will be too short over the blades.
What you did at the front was measuring the front balance (=neck tip- chest line) not the front armhole depth (=shoulder tip- chest line).
Balance measures: Your front balance is 0,4cm larger than your back balance. You have to care for the same balance relation in the pattern: after finishing the proportional draft measure the balance of the pattern: Mark the Hs+1 point (= neck tip) from the center back. Measure the back balance vertically from the neck tip to the chest line. Measure the front balance vertically from the same neck tip to the chest line . Compare the difference to your balance measure difference. Slash front and back pattern horizontally, shift the one apart and overlap the other (always for the same amount) till your front balance is 0,4cm larger than the back balance.
Question 3: Back armhole depth ( wich is C7- chest line) has nothing to do with sloping or square shoulders.

BTW: Measuring the balance with the weighted tape to the floor is a bit unreliable in my eyes (I always get different results when trying to repeat). Hofenbitzer recommends to mark the chestline strictly horizontally with a masking tape for taking the balance measures.

[Petruchio]

Thanks posaune and peterle, this is immenseley helpful.

Just two quick follow up questions:

1. Measuring the chest: according to the rundschau book you measure it incorporating the "lower" shoulder blades. Now, this could easily lead to 2cm less than measuring around the most prominent spot on the shoulder blades. Is there a reason for this? Do you adjust the prominent shoulder blades in any other way?

2. Concerning the relations of the draft itself: Does this mean you divide the chest line on the draft not in the middle as the draft suggest but - in my case - 1cm off center so that the back is 2cm wider than the front? I was just wondering if I got that right. In the draft itself the back is always a little wider than the front but you divide the chest line in the center anyway.

Again, thank you so much for your help. The amount of knowledge you decide to share with us is just fantastic and I really wouldn't know where to turn to elsewhere for advice.

[peterle]

@1: As far as I know this is just right for loungecoats ecc. The calculations of the proportional draft, the not straight CB with center seam and ironwork care for the right division. For very prominent blades you must adapt the proportional pattern anyway by slashing and opening (also in a shirt).  And it´s only true when you measure the complete chest circumference wich is the base for all the proportional values. Other systems (like the Einheitssystem) want you to measure higher up. And when you measure just the individual back width (to compare with the calculated one) you measure a bit above the chest line.
A shirt has no slanted back seam and no ironwork.

@2. A shirt pattern is a bit simplyfied, usually you mark at the chest line: first the back width +ease, then the armhole width +ease and then the chest width+ease, to find your center front. This gets the armhole to the right position on the circle. Than You halve the the whole chestline to find the side seam position.

[Petruchio]

@1: As far as I know this is just right for loungecoats ecc. The calculations of the proportional draft, the not straight CB with center seam and ironwork care for the right division. For very prominent blades you must adapt the proportional pattern anyway by slashing and opening (also in a shirt).  And it´s only true when you measure the complete chest circumference wich is the base for all the proportional values. Other systems (like the Einheitssystem) want you to measure higher up. And when you measure just the individual back width (to compare with the calculated one) you measure a bit above the chest line.
A shirt has no slanted back seam and no ironwork.

@2. A shirt pattern is a bit simplyfied, usually you mark at the chest line: first the back width +ease, then the armhole width +ease and then the chest width+ease, to find your center front. This gets the armhole to the right position on the circle. Than You halve the the whole chestline to find the side seam position.

Thanks peterle. I'm not sure I got this, though. So since you can adjust for prominent blades on a jacket with ironwork and a back seam it is preferable to just measure on the lower part of the blade. But in the absence of those possibilities you must measure around the most prominent part of the blades when measuring for a shirt? And you also have to adjust for the blades by pattern manipulation (slashing and opening), meaning just adding length horizontally? I found the following alteration in my rundschau book, but it seems to come with the same problems as my front balance alterations.

[peterle]

Keep in mind how an individual measure is made:
First you draft a proportional pattern just using the chest circumference and the body height, than you compare the calculated proportional amounts with the individual "correction"and "posture" measures. anbd adapt the proportional draft.
Thus You have to keep apart:
1. The chest circumference measure. Since the chest measure is the key amount for all the proportional calculations, each calculated amount will be wrong when the chest measure is wrong. So you´ve to run the tape just over the lower part of the blades. When You inckude prominent shoulder blades, the chest measure will increase and with it the across front chest and armhole width and even the neck. But prominent shoulder blades need more width and length only in the back.
2. That´s what the balance measures and across chest/ across back measures are for. You compare it with the calculated amounts and then you know where to increase, decrease the proportional draft. That´s why you take the across back measure over the most prominent part of the blades.

For the posted pic: I´m sure you can translate this sketch to a shirt pattern by using tools like (yoke-)seam postioning and dart manipulation...
To shed some light on drafting back patterns read the articles of this recent post: http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=912.0

[Petruchio]

So, since I'm currently rather busy and don't have the time to make the draft, I spend my time overthinking the whole process. I was wondering: I measured the back armhole depth and it was 0,7 cm larger then the proportional draft would suggest, I therefore constructed the pattern with the measured amount. Since I will account for any balance issues by lengthening the front armhole depth and shortening the back armhole depth, it again will be shorter than measured after making the balance alteration. Do I have to account for that again by dropping the whole armhole depth again to the measured amount of the back armhole? This seems to result in a rather large front armhole depth, though?

[peterle]

When you took the balance measures, You know how much the difference between front and back should be. When you have made the back  the right measure already, you should do the rest of the alteration just at the front.

[Petruchio]

I' currently working on the draft again, and there is a strange issue I noticed. I forgot to take pictures but I hope I can illustrate it by using an old photo. When I attached the collar, I noticed, that the collar is sitting some what too high, although I checked the neckhole numerous times before and even when I removed the collar the neckhole was sitting at the right spot, meaning at the little notch at the front of the neck.
I attache I picture of a previous shirt, where I highlighted the real neckline, and where the collar is pulling the shirt upwards a little. So it seems to me, that this might be an issue of the form of the collar stand. I constructed the stand after the rundschau book on shirts, so I figured it is rather standard.

Now, I wonder if the collar stand really is the problem or if I miss something and how could I fix the issue.

[posaune]

https://www.muellerundsohn.com/allgemein/passformoptimierung-einer-bluse/
go to the end. look here what Mrs. Brinkmann-Stieler wrote. Interesting form of the stand.
lg
heidi

[peterle]

Are You sure it is the collar stand? On the pic it looks as if the collar fall is a tad too short on the outer edge causing a pulling. Try out if the problem occures also with the collar stand alone. How to cut and pivot the fall for a longer outer edge is shown in Posaune´s link.

[Petruchio]

Thanks posaune and peterle,

I will definitely try it out with the collar stand alone. I constructed the stand pretty much as they do here: https://www.muellerundsohn.com/allgemein/4-hemden-modelle-konstruieren/

Concerning the upper collar itself. If I slash and pivot the collar, does this lead to a collar that is less spread? Because it seems to me, that increasing the outer edge just leads to a more pointed collar, or am I missing something.

Btw, the collar in the picture was drawn freestyle by me, so the could be tons of issue, however even when I tried some spread collars from David coffins book the result was the same, it just seems to sit too high on the neck

[peterle]

The spread should stay mainly the same, but the collar will lay a bit more relaxed. But you can always influence the spread by simply altering the front edge of the collar as you want it.