shirt drafting, forward collar

[peterle]

Kiem, so you just added a wedge at the CF, and did not do the slash and pivot forward belly alteration yet? I would love to see the sleeveless version without the added wedge= with the old CF.
(My thoughts: adding the wedge to the CF is like pivoting the whole front around the CF-neckpoint and adds width also at the chestline. I would be very interested to compare it´s effects to the original CF version.)

[Kiem]

Kiem, so you just added a wedge at the CF, and did not do the slash and pivot forward belly alteration yet? I would love to see the sleeveless version without the added wedge= with the old CF.
(My thoughts: adding the wedge to the CF is like pivoting the whole front around the CF-neckpoint and adds width also at the chestline. I would be very interested to compare it´s effects to the original CF version.)

Yes, I basically let out the CF at the hem, to nothing at the neck hole.

Let out CF (just like the earlier pictures).










Original CF (as per draft).

[peterle]

Oh thanks, that was fast.
The main difference I see is that the original version doesn´t swing forward at the front hem (no surprise) but it also looks a bit smoother to me in the area above the front chestline.

Of course the front balance is yet too short. But I wonder all the time: Is your front neck at the right place? It seems so high in the pics. The collar seam should sit in the depression between chest and neck/ where neck and chest meet. Probably you should control if the draft of the front neckhole and shoulderline is correct. (my thoughts behind: maybe the front is too short and the neckhole is too high, because the front shoulder seam was drafted too low initially). BTW: wich system did you use?

[Petruchio]

Oh thanks, that was fast.
The main difference I see is that the original version doesn´t swing forward at the front hem (no surprise) but it also looks a bit smoother to me in the area above the front chestline.

Of course the front balance is yet too short. But I wonder all the time: Is your front neck at the right place? It seems so high in the pics. The collar seam should sit in the depression between chest and neck/ where neck and chest meet. Probably you should control if the draft of the front neckhole and shoulderline is correct. (my thoughts behind: maybe the front is too short and the neckhole is too high, because the front shoulder seam was drafted too low initially). BTW: wich system did you use?

I wondered about the position of the neckhole myself, especially since I have the same issue on a draft. The problem is, that I don't know how to fix it properly. When I just cut it down where I think it should be the neck size is getting way too large. What do you mean by drafting the front shoulder seam too low, though?

[posaune]

OT Just a note to make more confusion 
Recently we checked many formulas for calculating the neck: Not many could stand the criteria. Even with a proportional draft done after literature. Astonishing! My advice: Always check the circ.
(Some times a smaller front neck width and a deeper front neck helps, especially with a forward neck)
lg
posaune

[Petruchio]

OT Just a note to make more confusion 
Recently we checked many formulas for calculating the neck: Not many could stand the criteria. Even with a proportional draft done after literature. Astonishing! My advice: Always check the circ.
(Some times a smaller front neck width and a deeper front neck helps, especially with a forward neck)
lg
posaune

More enlightening, then confusing

I tried some alterations of the neckhole on a previous draft and was always a little hesitent because shortening the front neckwidth will also changes the shoulder and in my case also the front armhole, which was rather loose afterwards. Is there any kind of helpful measuring etc pp to determine the shape of the neckhole? Changing the neckwidth in the front for example seems to result in a similar change you would do on a jacket for sloping postures according to King Wilson.

[Kiem]

System is from Die gewandsammlung

My muslin is as the draft states, with the exception of the added 2 cm front balance and 8 cm total chest ease.





They specify a seam allowance at the shoulder seams and armhole.
With my own measuring I came to 1 cm for both. Anything smaller and the neck hole becomes larger than the collar for the same size would be. Maybe I made a mistake there?!?
Then don't specify a measurement.

Posaune: Some times a smaller front neck width and a deeper front neck helps, especially with a forward neck.

That does make sense and I had been thinking about this before I went into the deep and dark fitting rabbit hole

I also think it is high in the front.
The few shirts I have made myself are all a bit uncomfortable in the front and I have the tendency to pull these down for some relieve.

I measure my neck hole as follows. Neck diameter (38 cm) : 6 + 1 cm.
I haver measured collars that fit me well from button to buttonhole edge and these measure at 38.
I have made larger collars, 39's and even a 40,5 cm and these are all too roomy.

I could try measuring my actual neck width with a caliper?!? rather than using formulas.

[peterle]

What do you mean by drafting the front shoulder seam too low, though?

I just thought maybe a bit of the front shoulder got lost by mistake while drafting or while manipulating the shoulderline/front yoke seam line thing. So when the front balance is too short AND the front neckhole is too high probably there is something missing at the shoulder, making the the whole neck diameter too small and shortening the front at once. Mistakes happen also to experienced and rechecking is always a good thing.

OOps cross post.
Kiem, it´s not only the circumference of the neck. with a 38cm neck the cut through can be round but also oval, with a short horizontal axis and a long vertical axis or the other way round. All these forms can have 38cm circ. A calipher will help, but i´m not sure how to apply it´s front to back measurements to the pattern.

[peterle]

Wether the front neck is too high: Just close the shirt with a horizontal pin at the neckline when wearing and feel wether it sits in the groove or above.

[posaune]

Kiem there is no s.a. in the draft from gewandsammlung at the "shoulderseams and armhole" in my opinion. Maybe you misunderstood the terms there. I would be very surprised if there were.
lg posaune

[Kiem]

Can someone clear this up for me??
I know a bit of german, and to me this seems like there IS a seam allowance at the shoulder and armhole seam?

Erklärungen
- alle Angaben in cm
- Schulternaht und Armloch = Anlegekante
(inklusive Naht)
- alle anderen Nähte sind ohne Nahtzugaben

Then again, I looked at the new website for die gewandsammlung, I posted a link in the, where to start shirt drafting topic, and there they offer the exact same draft ( I checked), and now it specifies there are no seam allowances...

So either I misunderstood from the start, or they changed a mistake...

I checked both versions, they are the same, except one specifies what i mentioned above, the newer version is identical but mentioned no seam allowances added.
The version I have i downloaded in 2016...

EDIT:

I drew out a neck hole that measures 38cm, used a 1,75 buttonstance at the CF
When I draft without a seam allowance I get a neck hole that measures 45,1
Where the collar, 38cm + double the button stance (3,5 cm) would be 41.5

That gives me 4 cm ease in the neck hole...

Funny thing is, I took apart a Profumo RTW shirt and measured it. It seems they used this gewandsammlung draft. Only difference is the placement of the yoke seam (10 cm down from back neck rather than 6 cm), and the ease around the body is reduced (around 6 cm rather than 16). The slope is 1 cm greater than the draft. Other than that it is as this draft, including a much much larger neck hole just as I measured in my little test.

I mentioned this earlier asking is this was normal, and Peterle mentioned that no ease is added to the neck hole. Post #27 and #28

Im confused hahahah

[posaune]

Kiem, I have drafted the neck hole regarding the construction. For a neck circ = 38 cm I get a neckhole circ about 40.5 cm.
Sp = 38/6 + 1 = 7.33. The back neckhole is derived from a rectangle 7,33 * 2 . The front is derived from a rectangle about 7,33*8.33
I attach a pic,  red is the gewandsammlung neckhole, calculated for 38 neck = resulting circ is 40.5
the green is ours calculated for the same measure the resulting circ is 38.04.  I have moved the black circ over the green.
As I written before I found not many neckholes formulars which gave the requiered results in my research.
This is the last pic: 3 different drafts. So the lowest is the best for a necksize about 42:  it is Aldrich - but it makes the front neck very high. Sigh you can't have all.
lg
posaune

[Kiem]

Thnx Posaune,

A few things I figured out... The faulty use of a seam allowance did take out 2 cm in the front. That accounts for the missing length in the front.

I think I came to use these 1 cm seam allowances because that made the neck hole circa work for the collar size.
Other wise they are way to big, about 4 cm to large, using 4 seams of 1 cm gets rid of that "ease".

My neck is definitely longer than wide. more oval than round.


Anyway:

Can someone explain if I understood the german text in my previous post correctly?
Just to clear it up to me wether I misunderstood or if there was a faulty description.

I am going to make a new pattern, I might use a different draft to try out. Or perhaps I'll just pay around with the neck hole formulas to see which might work better for me.

1 problem identified, 100 left to solve hahahah


Once again thanks for all the help.
At some point I will post pictures of a finished shirt 

[peterle]

Kiem You are right, your instructions seem to indicate an included SA in the Shoulderseam. (BTW there is no shoulderseam, just a yoke seam. So I think it is a mistake in the instructions. I don´t know what the term "Anlegekante" means, maybe it derives from a coat draft )

But that´s good, Just let out the  two SAs at the shoulder and your neckhole will go down and your front balance will enlarge a bit.

Maybe you´r interested: The neckhole of my own 38cm neck shirt: back: 6,6cm by 2cm, front 6,6cm by 8,5cm. gives a neckhole line of 41cm.

[posaune]

I have never heard it. It is maybe a special austrian term - or just a mistake.
It says: Anlegekante that means you put (at the yoke) the parts together at the edge.  There is no seam between the front and back part. How  can it be included   But Peterle can maybe explain it, he has a tremendous knoledge in sewing and in languages and he is from Austria. Or it is just a mistake, which they have eliminated later.
I have never seen a garment in the "Waeschebereich" (and a shirt belonged in this section here in Germany- means underwear) which has included seam allowances.
lg
posaune
Peterle, your collar measurements are interesting. So in this formulas are the ease included that the collar will not strangle you. Now I'll have to search for my Lauerbook about shirts.
---------- after a while ---------------
Peterle, I have draft your neckhole taking what you wrote. Your neckhole measures 19,15 cm = 38,30  so it is correct. And it is nicely long in front.
so Kiem, finally we found what will work for your neck.