shirt drafting, forward collar

[Hendrick]

They refer to stretching not as a way to shape the garment, but to the fact that between the high shoulderpoint to the low shoulderpoint the fabric is cut slightly to bias. This gives a natural stretch between these points...

[pfaff260]

Thank you Hendrick!

[Greger]

'Just some general question for the professionals here: If the neckhole is so different on only one side I would imagine it has more to do with the shoulder i.e. how the shirt drapes from the shoulder   since the neckline itself would't be as asymmetrical. So after making the correct adjustments to the shoulder shouldn't the neckhole fall in place as well?'

If you look at Poulin's (pages 101 to 103) he shows a basic adaptation. In figure 107 numbers D,4,5,6 he shows changing the back neck at the top of the other shoulder (good shoulder). He gives some general numbers for how much to change. Of course, in reality, a shoulder blade jutting out more than normal, large shoulder muscles, forward or backward shoulder, etc. would change the numbers.  He shows pinning the garment to it proper location. With collars he recommends a paper collar and you can chalk the bottom to find and make the line to sew the real collar on (shirt). Paper is easy to try different shapes, not to mention, cheap. When the paper collar shape is correct and pleasing chalk it on the cloth and add seam allowances all around. This is just part of some details.

[Kiem]

I have been figuring out my disproportion due to my protruding lower belly.

I took my seat measurement minus 6 inch or 15 cm to calculate the ideal waist, and then compared that to my measured waist.

I get a difference of 5 cm total.
Meaning my belly makes up about 5 cm of my waist circumference.

So I added 2,5 cm on each side on the centre front of a shirt muslin I have been playing around with. This seems to solves quite a few issues I was experiencing, at least for now.

What I am wondering is, should I draft for the ideal waist measurement and then ADD the disproportion to the centre front?
Or maybe take the disproportion amount away at the Centre back or side seams? I have not played around with this, though I have a rather hollow back, so I do need to take away a lot of material with darts.

I have corpulent drafting instructions for waistcoats, trousers, coats etc. These often calculate 1/8th or 1/4 th of the disproportion into the draft.
I think these drafts are meant for larger disproportions? For people who have fat around their waist? Rather than, me being skinny and just a bit more on the front compared to proportioned or ideal.

[peterle]

The disproportion of a belly figure is a different one than your forward belly. A belly figure is defined as the waist measure is equal or wider than the chest measure. I´m sure this is not true for you, because I think your measurements are pretty much normal. And I think you can´t calculate your disproportion the way you did.

In your posture the waistring is just shifted forwards compared to the chest ring. At least. To proceed You should find out if your hip ring is also shifted forward: on the norm posture the gluteus maximus touches the same vertical line as the shoulderblades.
For the front it would be better to pivot: find your nipple point in the pattern. Make a vertical slash from the hem to this point. Make a second slash  bias from the armhole to this point. Leave the point uncut as a joint. Pivot open the vertical slash the desired amount at the waistline. The other slash will overlap. Try 1,5cm at the waistline.
How to treat the back depends on the position of your hip ring.

[Kiem]

Would a forward hip ring be considered a swayback figure? (or something toward that type of figure?)

From what I can see on my pictures The line from my shoulder blades down to my butt is pretty much vertical.

I know my belly is forward due to some digestive issues I have been having the last few years.
In the morning I'm pretty much flat, during the day I tend to sort of swell up a bit. (I can measure quite the increase in circumference as well).

But due to my hollow back I think my waist ring is a bit forward.

Thanks for the info Petrle, plenty for me to start looking into!
Just out of curiosity, where did you learn all this, what is your background in tailoring?
It is clear that you have a tremendous knowledge of the craft, and all the info you share is very, very much appreciated.


I think I also found out why my collars seemed to fit a bit tight... I added 1,75 cm to the CF on the shirt, and only 1,5 cm to the collar past the 1/2 neck size. So my collars were too short by 0.5 cm hahaha

[posaune]

See your profile. At left side you shove your hip a bit in front. At right it is level with the shoulder blades. But your belly is clearly in front as your head is forward. How much your spine bent into front is not to see.
lg
posaune

[Kiem]

See your profile. At left side you shove your hip a bit in front. At right it is level with the shoulder blades. But your belly is clearly in front as your head is forward. How much your spine bent into front is not to see.
lg
posaune

Yeah very clear to see, thank you

I'll post some more pictures sometime soon.
I have a muslin with the forward shoulder alteration done, added room to CF ands things look MUCH better than before.

I need to find someone to help me measure my back width Or find a way to do this myself. I can tell on my current muslin that it is not wide enough.
How much ease is typically added around the front chest and back width? If any...

Also another thing I run into, The right side shoulder is 2 cm lower than the left side. I notice The front chest is more narrow on the low side compared to the high side, also I have more ease in the side seam on the right side compared to left. In other words, It seems I need lees cloth on the low side of my body compared to the right side (atlas around the chest circumference and front chest.

So on this picture below (I think Posaune posted this somewhere before?) the low side is altered by shifting the pattern.
As a result the armhole changes to keep its balance, but the side seam moves in towards the CF, so a little less cloth on the lower side seam.

Is this a typical thing to see? low shoulder needs less front chest width and less cloth in the sides?

Does the pivot point have to be in that exact spot?

[Greger]

Looks like part of you is sway back. But, maybe not.
Here is a fitting book for pre-made suits.
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=341.msg2082#msg2082
It may be of some use.

[posaune]

Hi Kiem; I am glad you took it with a friendly emotion.
Your question will get you one of the answers I hate: It depends!
If the hanging is severe and the neck is in it you do like this. If not you cut the armhole out, slide it down the amount and connect it new to the neckpoint. True the seams. If you have less fabric there you rotate it in (Rotating point Neckpoint).
Example: I have a hanging side at the left, the left side is less developed as the right side. But under the waist it is vice versa, my left hip is more developed than my right. See pic left side is black. I have different bust- and hip circs.
lg
posaune

[Kiem]

Aah thats super interesting.

And I definitely take this with a friendly emote  
All, and I really mean All the input and observations are appreciated.
This topic alone has taught me more than I would be able to figure out all by myself.

I came across a picture somewhere that show how the side with a lower shoulder often has a more developed hip.
If I feel my hip muscles they are a bit more developed on my lower side.
I guess this has to do with the muscles always finding a certain balance in the body, no matter what is crooked, low, over or under developed.




I think this picture is a good representation in what happens with me.
Seems the low right shoulder pushes the waist in the opposite direction, needing less cloth on the right side waist, then pushes hip out on the right side, needing more cloth there.

I definitely push my neck sideways a bit as well.
I noticed this on my waistcoats, the right side is higher on the collar than left side.

In the pictures I posted previously I tend to stand a bit lazy, and drop my right side like in the left image in this picture below.
I guess I didn't want to stands "to attention" and instead stood a bit too lazy.

[Kiem]

Looks like part of you is sway back. But, maybe not.
Here is a fitting book for pre-made suits.
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=341.msg2082#msg2082
It may be of some use.

That will come in handy, thank you!

[Petruchio]

The disproportion of a belly figure is a different one than your forward belly. A belly figure is defined as the waist measure is equal or wider than the chest measure. I´m sure this is not true for you, because I think your measurements are pretty much normal. And I think you can´t calculate your disproportion the way you did.

In your posture the waistring is just shifted forwards compared to the chest ring. At least. To proceed You should find out if your hip ring is also shifted forward: on the norm posture the gluteus maximus touches the same vertical line as the shoulderblades.
For the front it would be better to pivot: find your nipple point in the pattern. Make a vertical slash from the hem to this point. Make a second slash  bias from the armhole to this point. Leave the point uncut as a joint. Pivot open the vertical slash the desired amount at the waistline. The other slash will overlap. Try 1,5cm at the waistline.
How to treat the back depends on the position of your hip ring.

If I got this alteration right this might also change the way the neckhole lies and also the armhole (shortening it a little I think), compared to the method of just adding the amount evenly  at the waistline and making a new CF and side seam. Are those effects desired or just so minor that they can be ignored?

[peterle]

Or is it just the small part that changes it´s position?

You always should add the desired amount at the place in the pattern where it is needed and it is needed in the middle of the front pattern and not at the CF or side seam.

Are you familiar with the position of the neckpoint in Rundschau coat patterns? It is determined by halving the front chest line and front belly line. Connecting these two points and carriing the line further to the shoulder line finds the neckpoint. So the wider the wider the CF belly point protrudes, the more outwards the position of the neckpoint.(the whole shoulder area gets more "crooked") We get the same effect by slashing and pivoting.
I encourage you to try both methods in a half scale pattern and compare them.

[Kiem]

Or is it just the small part that changes it´s position?

You always should add the desired amount at the place in the pattern where it is needed and it is needed in the middle of the front pattern and not at the CF or side seam.

Are you familiar with the position of the neckpoint in Rundschau coat patterns? It is determined by halving the front chest line and front belly line. Connecting these two points and carriing the line further to the shoulder line finds the neckpoint. So the wider the wider the CF belly point protrudes, the more outwards the position of the neckpoint.(the whole shoulder area gets more "crooked") We get the same effect by slashing and pivoting.
I encourage you to try both methods in a half scale pattern and compare them.

I am not familiar with any rundshau patterns, but this reminds me of a waistcoat draft that Mansie Wauch (not sure if I spelled his name correctly) posted on the old forum where the neck point was found in a similar method.

Quote from draft:

(Point 22 establishes the front neck position. The angle of the line coming up from the waist will alter if the waist is increased or decreased, this in effect will give you a more crookened neck point if the waist increases and a straighter neck if the waist decreases.)