shirt drafting, forward collar

[posaune]

Kiem I would now work at the neck. It is high in front and side especially left side.
The armhole look at the back funy, there is a wadder in the lower third which is pressed down. Maybe the Armhole to big in the back? The balance looks for me allright. How much have you darted the side seams?
At neck you can put on a little something (small chain or string or anything)  with a weight - maybe a key pulled - through. So that the string is pulled down. It will sit in the deepest ?? between neck and shoulder. you can chalk this as a guide line how deep to cut.
lg
posaune

[Petruchio]

Out of curiosity,

What happens when adding both front and back balance?!?

For example: Adding 1 cm front balance and 1 cm back balance. Doesn't this cancel each other out? I don't see how this would change anything other than deepening the armhole.

Edit:

I'll post some pictures tomorrow of the muslin with the shoulder slope symmetrical. I got ahead of myself with sloping my dropped shoulder in the pics above

Yeah, I think you're right. Adding front balance at the bust would just cancel each other out. I still think you could add to the belly. If you look at the side pictures the line you draw there is still pointing upwards.

Just some general question for the professionals here: If the neckhole is so different on only one side I would imagine it has more to do with the shoulder i.e. how the shirt drapes from the shoulder   since the neckline itself would't be as asymmetrical. So after making the correct adjustments to the shoulder shouldn't the neckhole fall in place as well?

[Kiem]

Kiem I would now work at the neck. It is high in front and side especially left side.
The armhole look at the back funy, there is a wadder in the lower third which is pressed down. Maybe the Armhole to big in the back? The balance looks for me allright. How much have you darted the side seams?
At neck you can put on a little something (small chain or string or anything)  with a weight - maybe a key pulled - through. So that the string is pulled down. It will sit in the deepest ?? between neck and shoulder. you can chalk this as a guide line how deep to cut.
lg
posaune

Yeah, the neck hole almost seems slightly off centre, actually, my neck is probably off centre.
Sliding down my right side and up the left side.

I find this hard to really judge due to the 1cm seam allowance I added around the neck hole. I was thinking of cutting it away to have a better look at where the neck hole sits.

With the string and weight method, Do you do this to find the lowest point where the shoulder meets te neck? To determine where the new neck hole needs to be?


The sides are suppressed 3,5 cm.
I can let the out easily, plenty of inlay. I was thinking of doing this to see what happens. Maybe even let out the the side seam from all the way to the hem, creating a bit more room to go around the seat.

[posaune]

When I let the string hang down at front I mark how it runs at the side of the neck. Pulling the weight to the back and let it fall down there -  it will give me the neck point CF. (But that is me)

Side suppression depends from your rib cage and has nothing to do with your waist. if suppressed too much you get drag lines. For a slim waist you work with darts:
Don't let out all of the side seams.
You just swing out the back a bit. Hold it at CB cut the hem and shoulder and then rotate the pattern to the side maybe 2 cm at CB (hem) you cut now the rest. That will give you more then enough room. If it is not enough do it to the front too.

[peterle]

@ Petruchio: when you look on Kiem´s lat front picture you can see his left trapezius meets his neck  neck higher than the right. (Aligne your triangle ruler with the vertical  door frame in the back) A symmetric neckhole can´t fit an assymetric neck. The pattern has to picture this assymetry and the right neckpoint has to reach lower than the left. Keep in mind symmetry means the left side is the mirrow image of the right side and the centerlines are the mirrowing axles. When you mean the neckline of the pattern itself (isolated from everything else) it won´t change it´s form massively and we also don´t want it to change too much, but it changes it´s relative position to everything else in the pattern.

@ Kiem: Looks much better now.I think you have very forward shoulders. That´s why your front armhole is clinging to the body and your back armhole is not. Forward shoulders need a slightly wider back from armhole to armhole and a slightly narrower front chest between the armholes. The back usually needs more lenght (wich you just added). You can mimick the necessary alteration with pinning: Find the protruding point of the  left shoulderblade. Its above the tip of your armhole dart about 2cm below your yoke seam marking. (you can see small folds pointing to the right spot in you back pic). From there pin a vertical dart to the shoulder seam (taking out about 1,5cm at the shoulder seam). This dart helps to get the back armhole tip towards the front. Now pin a stricly vetical fold from the dart end at the shoulder all the way to the hem of the front. same width as the dart, 1,5cm. This mimicks the narrower front.  We can´t mimick a wider back with pinning, so maybe the back will feel a bit tight.  You also have to open the back armhole dart for this procedure.
Put it on an see what happens.

Did you remove 3,5cm on each side of the seam(=7cm)? Reducing the waist nipping will probably also reduce those diagonal folds pointing to the waist. Better to reduce the nipping and installing back darts.

[Kiem]

I did the forward shoulder alteration as Peterle suggested.
I think this forward shoulder alteration did a lot of good.
The bulk out of the front is gone

I did between 1,5 cm/2 cm total. (I did not measure super carefully, I just basted the darts/seams).
There was still gaping at the shoulders, so I put the back shoulders darts back to get rid of this.


I also let out the side seam at waist ands hip by 1 cm. Chest is unchanged.
You are correct, I initially supressed the side waist by 3,5 cm (7cm less than 1/2 chest measurement). Now I reduced that to 2,5 cm suppression (which is also what the draft states).
This did decrease the diagonal folds a bit.












Another few things I noticed.

The reason for my shoulder drop and neck base difference is because I bent to the right side with my upper body. Causing my left side to rise and the right side to drop.
If I straighten myself out this disappears, and the 2cm front difference is gone aswell. I think this is due to the health issues I have had for the past 5 years. I had to spend a lot of time sitting and laying down due to very severe fatigue problems. This has not done my muscles and posture any good.

Another thing is that the right side of the muslin has more cloth that the left side. I think this is also due to bending sideways, and/or my neck is off centre.
The difference here seems to be about 1 cm.

The creases at side waist are also pronounced due to the side bent.

[peterle]

Ok, I see.
I also think it is cleaner now and it is more obviuose that the balance is a bit off. The front balance is a bit too short. I recommend to make it a tad longer: open the side seams and resew them with the back shifted downwards for about 1cm. there will be a 1cm step at both ends of the side seam. This should help with the clinging seat. We will see wether this longer front balance will interfere with your forward belly.

Don´t make the back armhole too tight with the darts. It better for mobility and doesn´t pronounce the rounded back so much.

The assymetry should be cared for after the symmetric alterations are done.

[Kiem]

Would reducing the back balance do the same thing as adding front balance?

[peterle]

Probably, but the front armhole looks a bit tight, so I´d prefer to lenghten the front balance. Just try it.

[Kiem]

1 cm front balance added.

I am actually think I might only need the front balance, also from experience with other garments.

Would it be better to start a muslin with the forward shoulder alteration done first, and then look at the slopes?
This alteration seems to change the slopes quite a bit.

[Kiem]

Peterle, Could you share how this forward shoulder alteration is made into the pattern?

My guess is taking a vertical wedge out of the yoke and closing that, and then lengthening the shoulder seam back to the original length?
Taking in the fronts seems just like in the fitting? Taking out the width from the entire front panel?

[pfaff260]

This is how i learned it. In dutch: een naar voren gedraaide schouderknok. Ik heb de hele pagina erop gezet, dan heb je ook de beschrijving. Hope all this helps. Succes.

[Kiem]

Awesome Dankjewel!!

Just to make sure I understand this correctly.

They let out point A by cutting the pattern from point A towards the most hollow (concave) part of the shoulder. And let this out (pivot) by a certain amount. (the pleat or excess fabric in a finished garment should be enough to measure and thus determine how much this amount should be let out).

This excess runs from the neck point towards the front of scye.

Then create a small fold at B to create length at point A

Here is the part I don't understand.

The neck part at B will be stretched out (uit te zetten)?!? to bring point C to C1
The term, uit te zetten. Does this mean stretching the fabric? Or is this displacing that part of the pattern.

They talk about stretching the fabric some more when discussing this being difficult for cotton and silk fabrics, but that It should not pose a problem since the amount to stretch is quite small and the fabric is on the bias at that point. So I guess it means stretching the fabric, but it can't hurt to ask.

Sometimes the letting out from A to E is not necessary. And the new point C (C1?) is then connected towards the original point A shoulder point.


I guess it makes sense writing it down like this.

[peterle]

I had a different method in mind:
Cut your back paper pattern vertically through the new dart tip from the shoulder seam to the hem. Shift it apart for 1,5cm. Take this 1,5cm out with a dart from the dart tip to the shoulder seam. When you will have seperated the yoke, you can close the dart in the paper pattern and will have a single piece yoke.

Make the whole front 1,5cm narrower like you did the basting by pinching the paper pattern. elongate the shoulder line from the neckhole towards the shoulder tip ( so the sloping will stay the same) and measure the necassery length. Redraw the front armhole to the new shoulder tip.

Pfaff 260 ´s sketch is super for hollow shoulders with a protruding shoulder bone. you can do this additionally to get some room for the shoulder bone. It´s also super for waiscoats.

[pfaff260]

Dear Kiem,
Ignore the stretching and draw it like they did in the drawing. In a shirt you can't strech the fabric. But it gives you an idea where you should add more room