shirt drafting, forward collar

[Kiem]

Thanks Theresa!

I did look these up on youtube.

For the wedge method, would I add to the Yoke shoulder point or the back part?
All the videos I was able to find have the shoulder seam on the natural shoulder line, No yoke pieces were mentioned.

[posaune]

keim, it is not that you have a big belly. Take the side photo. draft with  a ruler a plumb line from your bust. You will see it will not touch the belly point. You are rotating your hip, your belly goes forward and your rear stick out.
I still think your shoulders are quite normal. Load down on your phone an app which measures angles. And measure both side. A drop of 2.5 cm is real much. Remember:  a shirt is a shirt. It has to have some ease in it. If you want it tighter you need another construction and you have todo more fitting.

[peterle]

Ok, I see what you have done.

Shoulder slope alterations have to be done at the real shoulder line wich is on the highest line of your bodies shoulder and therefore (depending on your pattern instructions) about 2-4cm behind the front yoke seam. The alteration you did causes problems, because it's done at the wrong places and throws off the balance of the armhole.
A real forward shoulder needs an adjustment that creates more room for the front shoulder area. Just shifting the seamline- no matter wether you remove a wedge or a strip from the front and add it to the back- will not create more room. It will just shift the seam line optically.

I think you should do a muslin of your original pattern first without alterations. It's also better to determine the yoke seam lines after fitting. I'm also not sure you need a shoulder adjustment.

[Kiem]

Ok, I see what you have done.

Shoulder slope alterations have to be done at the real shoulder line wich is on the highest line of your bodies shoulder and therefore (depending on your pattern instructions) about 2-4cm behind the front yoke seam. The alteration you did causes problems, because it's done at the wrong places and throws off the balance of the armhole.
A real forward shoulder needs an adjustment that creates more room for the front shoulder area. Just shifting the seamline- no matter wether you remove a wedge or a strip from the front and add it to the back- will not create more room. It will just shift the seam line optically.

I think you should do a muslin of your original pattern first without alterations. It's also better to determine the yoke seam lines after fitting. I'm also not sure you need a shoulder adjustment.

How would such an shoulder slope alteration look? I made a quick drawing on how I think it should look, please verify if this is the right idea.


And thanks for the verification on the forward shoulder alteration, thats exactly what I thought it did. Seam displacement optically.

If I recall correctly, a forward shoulder alteration on a coat would be to straighten the front neck point, take in the front of the armscye, let out the back of the armscye.
Thus getting rid of the excess fabric at centre front and the front of the scye.

I found this picture once.


If this is even correct, would this be done this way on a shirt aswell?


Maybe it is unclear in the pictures, but my right shoulder drops quite a bit compared to my left.

The 2,5 cm drop is based on my lowest shoulder compared to the original draft. I drop my left shoulder 1 cm based on original draft. So there is a 1,5 cm difference between my left and right shoulder. I guess depending on which draft is used the slope will be different?


For example, The slope on the waistcoat draft I use is a perfect match for my high shoulder.
I compared my waistcoat and shirt patterns with some measuring and calculating, and my shirt draft is more square shoulder by default.

[Kiem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGMveaNoo6k&frags=pl%2Cwn

17:50

This is what initially inspired me to even look at the fit of a shirt when I started making my own shirt patterns.

I copied his way of doing the shoulder slope, because it was my only reference at the time I could find.
I think even now this is the only video where some of the fitting stage is even shown.

[Kiem]

I downloaded a protractor measuring app on me phone and placed it on top of my shoulder.

My left shoulder measures about 20 degree, and my right shoulder about 24,5 degrees.
I did this facing a mirror, and by myself it is rather tricky, so the numbers could be a bit off. I guess it is close enough for now.

[peterle]

The sloping is made in a different way. Imagine a fitting with the natural shoulderline marked on the fabric. You would pinch the shoulderline and lift it at the armhole till the slope looks right and then you would pin the lifted material away. This removes a wedge of fabric. Then you do this to the pattern: Remove a wedge with the natural shoulder line as center line. To keep the armhole depth as was, you have to deepen the armhole base for the same amount you cut away at the top. Synopsis: You shift the whole armhole line downwards and reconnect the neckhole tips with the armhole tips.

You can´t do this lounge coat correction in a shirt, because the lounge coat doesn´t have a straight center front line like a shirt.

I think in the video not every step is shown. The pinning at the back armhole is because of the ronded back/shoulder and when he repins the front yoke seam he created a kind of little dart to get the yoke to curve forward. When proceeding he maybe will ease it in or maybe he pinches the yoke pattern.

[Kiem]

That makes sense.

It does raises a few questions.

When the wedge for a sloping shoulder is taken out of the natural shoulder line, This alters the shape of the yoke when it is closed, and also changes the shape of the neck hole a little bit.
When there is 1 shoulder that is more sloped than the other, the yoke would become asymmetrical correct? Same for the neckline?

I am curious if the seams are altered or displaced to keep the yoke symmetrical after the alterations.
It seems a asymmetrical yoke would not look good on striped or patterned fabrics?

I guess one could do a shirt muslin with no yoke, just a front and a single piece back, do the sloped shoulder alteration at the natural shoulder line, and then draw a yoke shape wherever needed/wanted?


I am going to make a new muslin when I have found some fabric that I can use.
I might have some cheap cotton poplin laying around.

[posaune]

I attach a pic. It mimicks the shoulders with different angles. You see a difference  from 5° gives a difference about 1 cm in height.

[Kiem]

I attach a pic. It mimicks the shoulders with different angles. You see a difference  from 5° gives a difference about 1 cm in height.

That is really helpful! Thank you, very much appreciated.

Pictures make it so much easier to understand some of these things.

I guess the measured angles can then be directly implemented in drafting a pattern?
I am curious how that would work exactly.

[Kiem]

Drafted a new pattern, No extra alterations made, just the plain draft with my measurements. 16cm total ease around full chest as the draft instructs.

If I measure the angle at the natural shoulder line I get 14 degrees.

[peterle]

The slope method I was talking about is meant for symmetrical slope adjustment. A low shoulder has to be adapted for with a different method when it is heavier. There is a recent post with a pic somewhere.

Yes, the yoke form and the neckhole change with this method. This is important and is the reason why your approaches won´t work very well. Probably it´s also the reason for your neck issues.

Yes, it´s better to make a muslin without yoke but true shoulder line  and determening the yoke lines after the fitting ( see post #17).

Yes you can implement an angle measure in your pattern draft, but concerning the shoulder nothing beats a fitting with inlays (like the professional in your vid). It´s the only reliable method to get the shoulder right (and nearly impossible when fitting yourself).

Yes, every assymetrical  pattern will have an impact when using patterned fabric and sometimes the assymetrical pattern even pronounces the assymetry of the body. Therefor it´s  better to leave the pattern symmetrical sometimes.

[Kiem]

Thanks once again for all the input.

I am waiting for some cheap fabric to be delivered to make a muslin out of. I ordered 6 meter of cheap 100% cotton poplin and waiting on delivery.

In the mean time I took apart a Profuomo RTW shirt I bought in a thrift store for a few euros.
Mainly to do some comparing to my own patterns and shirts, and to find out a bit about the collar issue I experience, and why these issues did not present itself in this particular shirt when trying it on.

I found out that the sleeve draft is exactly the same as I do.

Though, the collar has some things going on I don't understand.
It looks to be a so called, kent kragen collar. The size is 38cm (measured button to buttonhole) and the collar seam is 42cm long. The neck hole on the body is 46cm long.

I was under the impression no ease is to be added to the neck hole, collar. Is this assumption correct?

Also, can someone explain to me the difference between a kent collar and a smoking collar?
I can see there is a obvious difference in shape, but why or when would I use one or the other?

For my previous shirts I used the smoking collar pattern.

[peterle]

You´r right, no ease in the neckhole. Maybe the neckhole was stretched while deconstructing the shirt? Iron the neckhole carefully (the fabric threads have to be in a right angle afterwards) and remeasure.

The most relevant difference in the collar drafts  are in the baseline and width of the stands. It will have influences on how the stand lies to the neck. Make one of each and perhaps also a complete straight stand and find out.

[Kiem]

I made a quick testing muslin.

First thing I notice it that the left centre front is 2 cm higher than the right when I let the muslin sit on my body naturally.
This happens on other shirts as well, both self made and rtw.





EDIT:

The top buttons won't meet, the lowest button overlaps more.
Indicates to me that the Left front part is cut too square. Letting out the left side neck point will straighten this out.

Rightside fits nicely around the neck, and the right side centrefront hangs straight down.

I could add 2 cm front balance to the left side, and proceed from there, rather than letting out the neck point.

Anyway, It seems my left side shoulder/ neck is much more developed than my right side.
Seems the neck hole needs to be bigger in the left side aswell because of this.

I made a bunch of changes to the muslin. Wanted to see if I can identify the problems myself.