shirt drafting, forward collar

[Kiem]

Hello everyone.

Taking a break from trousers so I am working on a new shirt draft.
I use the draft provided by Die Gewand sammlung, for those not familiar with the draft, It looks like a rundshau draft (maybe a variation)?

I have trouble with my previous shirt where the collar is slightly to low in the back neck and to high at the throat.
Even with a collar that is 1 cm too large I have trouble buttoning the collar without having to pull it out of shape, compared to where the shirt wants to sit naturally.

I did a bit of a rough test and came to the conclusion that I need to move the collar forward (higher in back neck, lower in front) by about 1/8 inch.

How do I go about this alteration?

I am happy with the fit of the body (I don't see balance issues), I really just want to move the collar forward a little bit.

No pics for now, might add later if I can manage to make them by myself.

[Petruchio]

I had the same problem as well. And altough it wasn't really a balance issue either, it had to do with forward rolled shoulders, so that the front armhole was simply too big in relation to the back armhole. I just pinned some cloth horizontaly away at the chest, including the armhole and that solved the issue (you must however control the balance afterwards again), so I made the changes to the pattern. I can't say that you have the same problem, but mine was indicated by some "pulling" sensation in the throat area.

So I don't know if such an alteration is correct, but it worked for me.

[Kiem]

I have forward shoulders aswell, so this is definitely something I will try.

Thnx!

Edit, I am starting to think that the neck hole is a little too wide for my neck. Think, round neck hole, oval neck.

The circumference measurement is correct. I calculated the neck width as follows. 1/6 of the neck circumference + 1 cm (as stated in the draft).

Is there a way to measure for a narrow neck? Or is this something that is typically assessed during a fitting?

[theresa in tucson]

Kiem, for those of us in the older population there is the "high round back" adjustment.  You can "google" this and find many tutorials.  The alteration for "forward head" does the "high round back" plus lowering and reshaping the front neckline.  You simply have to play around with some muslin and do mock-ups until you hit upon the right shape for you.  Fitting yourself is hard compared to fitting someone else.

[peterle]

Kiem you should fit the shirt without collar at first. It is important that the neckhole is on the right position . The center back neck point should lie on the 7th vertebra (the protruding one). Secure the neckhole line with a row of stay stitching to avoid any stretching.

[theresa in tucson]

To add to what Peterle says, to find the 7th vertebra put your finger on the back of your neck at the knob and feel for the indentation.  With the head erect, finger in the indentation, move the head forward and then back.  Your finger should move up and over the knob and then back into the indentation..  The neckline seam is supposed to fit at that indentation

[Kiem]

That is super helpfull, I can definitely feel where it should be.

I did a few tests today, and it seem that every time I move the collar forward by some amount, I need to pin that same amount away at the back yoke seam because it starts to roll in the neck.

Unfortunately I'm running out of cheap cloth to make muslin out of.

[peterle]

Don´t make a new muslin every time. Use one with inlays to do the fitting.

Do the fitting without collar. When the neckhole is´nt at the right place you probably have balance or shoulder issues. When the neckhole is on the right place, probably your collar is not drafted right or not attached the right way.

Only pics can help. everything else is crystall sphere reading...

[Kiem]

I used all my leftover pieces of cotton, they weren't large enough to add inlays and could barely get 2 tests out of them.

First thing I checked today was finding my 7th vertebrae and feeling wether the back neck seam lies on it. This seems to be a perfect match. It is right on the protrusion. Both with the top button buttoned and unbuttoned.

I made some pictures, hope these help. I wasn't able to take pics from the rear by myself.

I also did some measuring. My collars have shrunken a bit after several washes (these are shirts I made about 1 year ago.
Blue shirt has a small 37,5 / 38 cm collar (button to buttonhole) White striped shirt has 39cm collar.

My neck measures +- 38 with no fingers between the tape, and +-39 with 3 fingers between. Give or take a few mm's

I am aware that my shirts need a bit more sloping.

Another thing I am noticing is that my posture changes quite a bit.

I have experienced pretty bad fatigue issues for the past 5 years. So sometimes my energy is low and I am stand more stooped, other days I am a little bit more erect.
I have done a lot of posture checks in front of the mirror. Standing erect and seeing what happens, standing more stooped etc. Based on that, and some of the muslins and drafts I did in the past I feel I am quite straight overal. Though sloped and forward shoulders, slight forward neck.

I am pretty happy with the fit of the body, with the exception of the shoulder slope being off.
Honestly, these shirt are more comfortable and better fitting than anything I have ever been able to buy.

On these shirts I dropped the left shoulder 1 cm and the right shoulder 2,5 cm compared to the original draft.

Unbuttoned, it seems the collar wants to slide outwards down my shoulder muscles.
That makes me think the neck hole might be too wide.

When closing the collar button I need to pull the collar in a bit, but this doesn't seem to raise it in the back neck, only at the sides of the neck.

I tried on a profuomo rtw shirt with a 38 collar (I measured the distance to be sure it really is 38 cm, it is).
I am able to easily close the collar, though it has some roll in the back neck, seam also lies on the 7th vertebrae.

[Kiem]

another thing I just noticed.

When I wear the shirt, unbuttoned, the buttons are 1,5 cm lower that the centre of the buttonholes.

Edit: this problem gets way less when I pin my shoulder to be more sloped.

Where should I start??

New pattern, muslin, no sleeves/ collar?
Existing pattern, muslin, no sleeves, no collar?

[peterle]

When you dropped the shoulder did you just drop the shoulder or did you move the whole armhole downwards? It seems your armholes are pulled downwards, because they are not deep enough. Therefore the diagonal creases from the bottom of the armholes towards the neck. (less obviuos in the blue shirt)
Where did you do the shoulder dropping? on the true shoulder line or at the front yoke seam?

How much did you take out in the sideseam for the waist? Does the white shirt have back darts?

[posaune]

why did he drop the shoulder his angle is about 23° no panic ! The problem is the posture with the protruding belly point.
lg
posaune

[Petruchio]

To my laymens eye it seems you should add some lenght at the CF at the belly. I'm not sure you need a belly draft though. Since it seems that the shoulder issue on the left is not only the angle of the shoulder but the fact that they roll forward, I think you could try a forward shoulder adjustment, where you also shorten the upper chest a little bit.

I think you can easily alter your existing pattern, but again, I'm no expert.

[Kiem]

I did not alter the yoke from the original draft.
The slope was done as in the picture added, so I did drop the armhole by the same amount.




White shirt has darts in the back, and is overall a bit tight. slightly higher armholes and closer around the chest. Not the best example.
I changed that in the blue shirt (which I made last).

Blue shirt has no darts in the back.
I added 6 cm ease total to my chest, waist and hip measurement. The draft stated 16cm?!?


Rh or scye depth from the nape of neck down is 24 cm (calculated as stated in the draft) 1/16 full body length + 1/8 chest = Ruckenhohe Rh.






When I deliberately roll my shoulders backward most of the diagonal creases disappear. Hard to photograph while also holding the camera.
My shoulders roll forward when standing naturally.

How would I do a forward shoulder alteration? I know of the one where the shoulder seam is displaced forward a bit while the neck point stays the same.

For experimental sake I pulled in my belly while standing in front of the mirror (sideview). I can only see a minor change. Though I should add a little extra width in the front.

[theresa in tucson]

Kiem, there are two ways to do the forward shoulder.  In the first you subtract from the front and add to the back across the seam anywhere from 3/8" to 5/8".  In the second you leave the neck point the same and subtract a wedge from the front and add it to the back.  If you google several some of the more popular sewing blogs (try Louise Cutting, Maria  Denmark, In Fitting Fashion) you can find tutorials for this.  Most are written by and for women but bone structure is bone structure and the alterations are much the same for men and women.  In this age of computers and desk work, the rounded back and forward shoulder is very common.