Drafting trousers.

[posaune]

Photos now are wonderfull.
If you did the alteration to  the 1. sloper, " seems the fabric has stretched with wearing", maybe it has stretched more, because now it is too long at the back and too wide. (I think that fabric is to weak for a pants muslin). And it would stretch were the bias is -  that is mostly at the center back seam. Did you attach the waist band new?
Looking the side view I would say the front is too tight. See that from hip point up to waist band the side seam goes slightly so / . Means let out the front side seam, till it runs straight. This will effect the back (waist) naturally.
You have not done lines where your hip is (horizontal) in front and back - so I have to guess. But I think your pants is now out of balance - the back is too long. The added 2.5 cm may have been a bit too much.
The right hip is higher than the left. To prove this you have to measure from floor up to your waist.
I'll attach a link where you maybe can read some good stuff about fitting a pants (it is for woman but the fitting problems are the same)
https://closetcasepatterns.com/pants-fitting-adjustments-best-tips-for-pants-fitting/
lg
posaune

[Adriel]

Photos now are wonderfull.
If you did the alteration to  the 1. sloper, " seems the fabric has stretched with wearing", maybe it has stretched more, because now it is too long at the back and too wide. (I think that fabric is to weak for a pants muslin). And it would stretch were the bias is -  that is mostly at the center back seam. Did you attach the waist band new?
Looking the side view I would say the front is too tight. See that from hip point up to waist band the side seam goes slightly so / . Means let out the front side seam, till it runs straight. This will effect the back (waist) naturally.
You have not done lines where your hip is (horizontal) in front and back - so I have to guess. But I think your pants is now out of balance - the back is too long. The added 2.5 cm may have been a bit too much.
The right hip is higher than the left. To prove this you have to measure from floor up to your waist.
I'll attach a link where you maybe can read some good stuff about fitting a pants (it is for woman but the fitting problems are the same)
https://closetcasepatterns.com/pants-fitting-adjustments-best-tips-for-pants-fitting/
lg
posaune

Okay, glad one thing out of the way.

Sorry, they are light blue, guess too light. Next time use my green marker (my black dried out).

The only time it stretched was when damp from ironing and that felt like only the knees.

No, I left the waistband in, came about an inch from it.

The front is really giving me problems, think in part because the drafts don't include the fly. So how does one allow for this?

Honestly, after last night considering drafting another pattern because not enough fabric for the adjustment despite the additional seam allowances, this time with a wider front and address what Henry said. Do you know that this means "a little shortness at the back crotch point"?

[Adriel]

Knew forgot something... posaune, you are correct, the right hip is higher than the left by about 3/8 inches, good eye.

[posaune]

you just cut a facing on. Means 4 cm width and length as then zipper should be. Iron Interface to the facing - on left and right side of the trousers . Mark with a seam (dark color)  the Center front (left and right). Iron the left side into the inner side . The right side stay as is. Now you can pin the trouser close when fitting the sloper. Need no Zipp.
Little shortness at back crotch point: the back crotch curve is not long enough - you altered that already. But I think too much. And it may be because of your thigh circ that they pull the fabric in. So it may be you can alter the form of the inseam a bit.
lg
posaune
ah and front crotch: I think the form is of the curve is not okay.

[Adriel]

you just cut a facing on. Means 4 cm width and length as then zipper should be. Iron Interface to the facing - on left and right side of the trousers . Mark with a seam (dark color)  the Center front (left and right). Iron the left side into the inner side . The right side stay as is. Now you can pin the trouser close when fitting the sloper. Need no Zipp.
Little shortness at back crotch point: the back crotch curve is not long enough - you altered that already. But I think too much. And it may be because of your thigh circ that they pull the fabric in. So it may be you can alter the form of the inseam a bit.
lg
posaune
ah and front crotch: I think the form is of the curve is not okay.

Now I am even more confused...

Though now I understand for the sloper need to ignore the fly until the final, so how is a fly added to the final then?

I didn't notice the reply until getting on to draft a new post on Rundschu Cutting System.

[posaune]

Do you know that this means "a little shortness at the back crotch point"?

I saw that you have a second thread and here is what you was refering too. The translation of Kellner(?)  I have not read it through all those stuff!!!. But I'm sure he means that when you circle the outseam length to the back center you should do 1 cm less. This will bring the back pants up for a straighter fall. Yours are falling down in back - too much length at the center back crotch. But too much for doing this. (I thought it meant the inseam crotch point and the fit there - as was discussed earlier)
Your difference between out and inseam is 34 cm that is very much. So your dart lengths must maybe larger
For sewing a men's fly look in the net - there is much around.
lg
posaune

[Adriel]

Do you know that this means "a little shortness at the back crotch point"?

I saw that you have a second thread and here is what you was refering too. The translation of Kellner(?)  I have not read it through all those stuff!!!. But I'm sure he means that when you circle the outseam length to the back center you should do 1 cm less. This will bring the back pants up for a straighter fall. Yours are falling down in back - too much length at the center back crotch. But too much for doing this. (I thought it meant the inseam crotch point and the fit there - as was discussed earlier)
Your difference between out and inseam is 34 cm that is very much. So your dart lengths must maybe larger
For sewing a men's fly look in the net - there is much around.
lg
posaune

No second thread, a new thread for a new draft. Figured needed to step back further, meaning instead of working on a trial trouser, to first resolve the pattern, then once the pattern is ready, then have the sloper reviewed once done.

Who is Kellner?

Circle the outseam?

These are high rise trousers. The inspiration has the dart through the pockets, though mine will not have any pockets (don't use them so why have them and one pair of OTR doesn't). How does one then know where to end the dart?

[posaune]

Kelner - This is the guy who translated the stuff, he was at T and C. He was enfant terrible there :-
). You take your measure band to center back Knee point and you held it down with your finger or an awl - go up to the outseam waist point - still helding it down. You read the measurement and now you rotate the measure band up the Back crotch line. (So you use the band as a divider. You can use that little hole as anchor. This is how my teacher uses it on the cloth.) Where the measure( - 1 cm )meets the back crotch there will be the back crotch waist point.
As you do the trouser up so high your dart will have another length and form as in a standard draft which ends 1 finger over the hip bones.
Your rise (word??) is 34 cm and the standard ist about 24 cm .
lg
posaune

[Adriel]

Kelner - This is the guy who translated the stuff, he was at T and C. He was enfant terrible there :-
). You take your measure band to center back Knee point and you held it down with your finger or an awl - go up to the outseam waist point - still helding it down. You read the measurement and now you rotate the measure band up the Back crotch line. (So you use the band as a divider. You can use that little hole as anchor. This is how my teacher uses it on the cloth.) Where the measure( - 1 cm )meets the back crotch there will be the back crotch waist point.
As you do the trouser up so high your dart will have another length and form as in a standard draft which ends 1 finger over the hip bones.
Your rise (word??) is 34 cm and the standard ist about 24 cm .
lg
posaune

Thank you for the help! :happy:

Took me a while, probably long gone. Wanted to be sure to run through as I am a tactile then visual learner, no auditory learning available.

Not sure what "enfant terrible" means in this context...

Anyway, I am new to all these terms so really would appreciate points so I can adapt, sorry. You mean K1 to M1? That is 62.5cm, the same measurement I was using for K3 to B4.

So then S4 to B5 following the curve?

That raises B5 significantly higher then B4: 16cm (62,5cm - 46,5cm). Why do this?

When sitting on a hard surface, Gesäß to natural waist is 32cm on the left. Am I long waisted? Miene Oma war. Couldn't wear suppressed dresses as the suppression was not right.

Where is the original of this system?

[peterle]

No, please reread the patterns text.

To determin the back waistline you take the measure K1-b1.

Then place your measuring tape at K3 and transfer the taken measure to mark B4.

Now measure M3 to B4, pin or hold the tape at M3 and transfer the measurement to determin B5. It´s like a giant divider. look in dia.534 "Kreisbogen".


The original is from the book "DerZuschnitt in der Herrenschneiderei" Edition XVI by Verlag M. Müller, München.

[Henry Hall]

This is why, by-and-large, I don't use German drafting systems all that much. I like to get things done a little more quickly and economically (perhaps intuitively) and the English systems are more straightforward.

Mueller-type drafts can be over-complicated. The first time I encountered them I wondered why it took ten steps to achieve what English drafts do in one or two steps. Granted they are accurate and often produce great results; maybe even requiring less fitting, but the draft I most use for trousers is an adaptation of one from the CPG based upon simple measurement divisions and drafting the seat and back is so much simpler. It's also very flexible to fitting changes.

[Adriel]

No, please reread the patterns text.

To determin the back waistline you take the measure K1-b1.

Then place your measuring tape at K3 and transfer the taken measure to mark B4.

Now measure M3 to B4, pin or hold the tape at M3 and transfer the measurement to determin B5. It´s like a giant divider. look in dia.534 "Kreisbogen".


The original is from the book "DerZuschnitt in der Herrenschneiderei" Edition XVI by Verlag M. Müller, München.

Why keep questioning my ability to follow directions? Is it because the draft is severely off?

Two days  fiddling with B5 and no answer on darts. Guess time for a new thread?

Thank you for answering where the system came from, appreciated.

[Adriel]

This is why, by-and-large, I don't use German drafting systems all that much. I like to get things done a little more quickly and economically (perhaps intuitively) and the English systems are more straightforward.

Mueller-type drafts can be over-complicated. The first time I encountered them I wondered why it took ten steps to achieve what English drafts do in one or two steps. Granted they are accurate and often produce great results; maybe even requiring less fitting, but the draft I most use for trousers is an adaptation of one from the CPG based upon simple measurement divisions and drafting the seat and back is so much simpler. It's also very flexible to fitting changes.

Henry, thank you so very much. 

CPG?

[Adriel]

Never mind, realized after tending the flowers do a search and in two seconds had my answer. Sorry...

The Cutter's Practical Guide by F.R. Morris

[posaune]

Two days  fiddling with B5 and no answer on darts.
Peterle and I took the time to describe how to set the darts.  Darts are a very personell thing  they depends on the figure.
lg
posaune