Drafting trousers.

[Henry Hall]

No Henry, we do have the same opinion. Ironwork is  necessary to create a nice pair of trousers, but it can´t substitute fitting the pattern.  I think the possibilities of curing an ill fitting pattern with ironwork are limited. Maybe we just differ where these limits are.

Until now we did no alteration to the muslin, and my approach is, to alter the pattern before I consider ironwork. Just my opinion, and no claim to be the one and only way. Maybe your approach is different and I would be glad to know, how you would do the fitting of Adriel´s trousers in detail.

To all the English native speakers out there: Is "to dress" the right term for doing ironwork? I´m not sure about it, because when I hear dress + trousers, I think of the pattern detail for the male anatomy.

I agree it is by no means a substitute for fitting the pattern; I'm not suggesting it should be. I was answering Adriel when he was talking about correcting the pattern 'or' ironwork, since both must be done.

My apologies for coming across as bellicose.

When I usually think of dress I also think about the topside reduction for anatomy. I've seen the term used for ironwork but it's best to probably just say 'ironwork' to minimise confusion.

[peterle]

Adriel You keep misunderstandig me. I don´t want you to do a steeper waistband angle. In contrary. Please read my post 77, where I say it is too slanted. I just want you to pull the garment up like you did in post 71.

And nobody said the pattern is off. Everybody said it fitts pretty well.

Please read http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=399. There is a picture of rundschau trousers, the actual sewing lines and inlays. The solid lines are the lines you drafted in the pattern. The dotted lines are the actual sewing lines. The seat seam is sewn in the drafted line. the grey areas are the inlays, wich are to be added in the cuttin stage. You can also add some inlays at the side seams.

[Adriel]

Adriel You keep misunderstandig me. I don´t want you to do a steeper waistband angle. In contrary. Please read my post 77, where I say it is too slanted. I just want you to pull the garment up like you did in post 71.

Ah, post numbers.  Okay, thought you meant 60 for some reason, sorry. 

Now you say to pull the back down further again without any clear instructions despite given plenty of means to do so? 

Too slanted means noting to this imbecile.

Also, sure looks like the angles are the same to me, after number 60 did as furthest it goes down:


I can't get the line horizontal unless cut down the back and then worry be even more excess of fabric.

And nobody said the pattern is off. Everybody said it fitts pretty well.

Then you were incorrect when said this:

Yes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.

?

I am so confused...

Please read http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=399. There is a picture of rundschau trousers, the actual sewing lines and inlays.

Wahoo, that's what I needed, pictures!  Plus, can use this later when draft other clothes.

And that says what I said: need inlays also in the side seams. Plus, note "The last is cut away just above the fork, a indicated."

Too bad Cutter and Tailor is shutting down, thus not allowing new members (why else not allow new members), so I can't search on their for these wonderful articles. At least there is this one last forum and the few who are here, so blessed.

This morning did not go to plan, will cut the yardage needed and get washed this afternoon. Hopefully can get cut before dark, then sew up tomorrow. Will be sure to add width to the rear leg width and hopefully get some of the wrinkles out. I mean, no way to add fabric and count at least for large flaws which seem to have secret resolution, like the secret word "spalt". Or what am I missing? Is there a dictionary of these terms I need to go check out of a library?

Close doesn't get the battle won.  So, if to get a perfect fit have to start again because I didn't know several things and did wrong, so be it. Good things come to those that wait and work hard. It took almost 20 years to realize the dream to make my own clothes, so why can't I wait another year?

[posaune]

Yes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.
And if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. This was me not Peterle.

Sorry, that I gave the wrong impression what started this discussion. As I wrote " If you give......." And if you dress the trouser After (should have been added) this - it will...............
My english is not good enough for this discussion.
lg
posaune
spalt is crotch diameter -  it is seperateley calculated front and back.

[Adriel]

Yes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.
And if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. This was me not Peterle.

Sorry, that I gave the wrong impression what started this discussion. As I wrote " If you give......." And if you dress the trouser After (should have been added) this - it will...............
My english is not good enough for this discussion.
lg
posaune
spalt is crotch diameter -  it is seperateley calculated front and back.

Appreciate the clarification, so much going on and with a Schädel-Hirn-Trauma already a wonder I can remember what I do.   

Your English is better then some native speakers. 

If you need to, would rather you help in German and if know it is German, then will get out my dictionary and have a look. A lot of times German close enough to to English it's easy. For example, Licht. So I look up spalt and come up with crevice, which if I am understanding, makes sense as where the measurement is, as B5 though S2 and B1 to S4.

For me, it is remembering the endings that go with parts of speech, as also have trouble with parts of speech in English (example, verb and noun).

So let out the spalt where? Tiefer machen S2 to S6?

I did understand dressing the trouser help with the wrinkles, though as been made very clear, will not take them all out.

Had a thought, why not use the Rundschau points instead of English terms? Just tossing that out there...

[Adriel]

So close to chalking, and the iron quit... LOL

[Henry Hall]

Do you need the iron to chalk?

[Adriel]

Do you need the iron to chalk?

Got it going again, sure hope can make the trip and get Oma's vintage iron, don't make them like they used to, though was free (roommate left behind as moved back to UAE where already had).

I now wash the muslin to get what seems starch off (gets sticky when damp), then iron flat so no additions to the fit, pin the fabric to the pattern, tape the pastern in the window, trace, lay on the flat file and add the additions, cut, then hang on a hanger until ready to be sewn. Seams get pressed open. After sewn, gets final press and back on a hanger. This muslin loves to get deep creases if you so much as look at it wrong. So this plastic fantastic domestic iron gets used a lot.

Seems scared off everyone but you, glad to have someone around otherwise go back into a funk. 

[Adriel]

Been trying to decide if post these, figured will just to conclude the thread.

[Henry Hall]

Tightness at seat? Have you been at the cake again?

[Adriel]

Tightness at seat? Have you been at the cake again?

LMAO!

I feel like the thighs are tighter this time, can 4mm on one side make that much difference?

Also thinking I am not creating the front fly correctly. On the draft, does the front crotch also get SA added?

[Henry Hall]

I don't know about this Rundschau draft, but the fly usually takes a pretty narrow seam. You probably need to cut out and baste in a dummy fly to test it rather than just sewing the fronts together.

[Adriel]

I don't know about this Rundschau draft, but the fly usually takes a pretty narrow seam. You probably need to cut out and baste in a dummy fly to test it rather than just sewing the fronts together.

Only sewn to the bottom of the fly. I am talking about the seam next to dress, which then affects how the fly lays.

What do you mean by narrow, 0,5cm/1/4"?

By the way, doing well with the diet, waist down to 83cm, three more to go if really want to be in good shape. 90cm seat. Oh and if over eat, it's because I stayed up too late and needed a snack, which is a nutrition bar (eat them instead of cookies and other deserts as figure one way to keep the weight off and keep a high protein diet). So now getting up earlier and doing more before breakfast, sometimes skipping the morning snack despite I am supposed to eat every two hours to keep the blood sugar from dropping too low.

Something interesting happening due to physical therapy for the right shoulder: my arm holes are getting tight in my coats. Also, tried subluxing the left shoulder and doesn't do it. The doctors said when a teen have to have surgery and obviously wrong, the muscles obviously have built up. Point is, glad started with the trousers as would have been chasing my tail on a coat/waistcoat.

Ordered the wool suiting fabric this evening. Figured stick with a solid for checking fit. Supposedly in a medium brown, bought it because $8 a yard, least expensive on eBay. Claims to come in on the 14th, so looking forward.

[posaune]

Hi Adriel
s.a. are not allowed at the back crotch seam and the hem.
When you learn the draft you do samples. Make one for the fly in 1:4 : It is quick done.
See your pic: Hip line dipps as before. Pin it up like Peterle told you , but do it maybe 4 cm under the back waistband. Than you can controll at hip line if it is sufficient.
You have to work an you front pattern as I wrote before. It will give you more crotch diameter (Spalt) - all folds running in that directions
lg
posaune

[Adriel]

Hi Adriel

Guten Morgen posaune.

s.a. are not allowed at the back crotch seam and the hem.

In other words, what I said that they are added on when chalking on the fabric.

When you learn the draft you do samples. Make one for the fly in 1:4 : It is quick done.

Okay, danke für die Hilfe.

See your pic: Hip line dipps as before. Pin it up like Peterle told you , but do it maybe 4 cm under the back waistband. Than you can controll at hip line if it is sufficient.

Went with 0,75cm taken out feeling 1,5cm was too much last time, seems to be correct guess as hip line is strait?

Sitting in them now and oddly doesn't feel as tight in the spalt as before the fishform dart.

You have to work an you front pattern as I wrote before. It will give you more crotch diameter (Spalt) - all folds running in that directions

Putting on the muslin this morning, realized last time popped the seams in the area of dress, not sure how that happened or how to fix, do you have a diagram or picture of what you mean? I am just not seeing it...