Rundschau cutting ladies coats - does anyone have access to the old files on C&T

[TTailor]

Thanks! I look forward to a visual.

[posaune]

Here is a pic: the red one is a proportional front length the green one is a front length about 2 cm longer (caused from big bust) and how it is measured for the Mueller system.
As you see the armhole depth stays the same. It is measured from the 7. Vertrebrae CB down to waist. It does not depend on front length. Even measureing with laser technic the reference point is the front armhole depth crossing the "armvortrittslinie". That is the black line down next to the side seam.


When you look at the 2. pic you can see how the pattern looks like. The red is the propotional  front length. In my example the front length in green is about 1 cm longer than the red one. You see the bust dart gets a bit wider. That is right because we have more bust. But the armhole stays as was.



In the 3.  pic  I want to show you what happens when I want more "Schluss" (means nearer to the body) at the armhole (evening dress). I add to my distance 1/20 Bu =  4.80 cm (black) 1.5 cm = 6.30 cm. Now the bust dart gets bigger and the front armhole smaller. No altering in the front length (blue lines).
If I have a coat I can do the opposite when I want this armhole a bit more relaxed and bust  dart too. 
For a proportional draft you subtract 2 cm from the back length armhole (20.9)  to get the front armhole length (18.9). But naturally you can play with this length too or combine both methods. This is very versatile.



lg
posaune

[Schneiderfrei]

Thank you very much posaune.

[TTailor]

Yes, i understand thank you!
I have some time now and I am finding the anlysis of the draft vey interesting and I am enjoying learning more in depth about how it works.
As I said previously, I do not draft often for women, but it may be something I am asked to do more of in the future. My main experience has been with Dress pattern designing by Natalie Bray.
I do like understanding why things work rather than just taking them at face value.

[TTailor]

Forgive me if I am asking too much.
So, as a proportional formula, would you say the draft is for an average bust/ cup size?

Is there a chart or formula for bust darts for larger busts?

I ask because it seems the bust dart size derives from a number of aspects.

The back neck width will not always be in proportion to the bust. Size, so is there a point where you would stop using the bust size for the neck width and start using a proportion of the measured neck?

Also, I can see that if you have a person with a large bust but narrow back, you can easily redistribute the fabric yo be where you need it, so in the front and the wider the front section is, the larger the bust dart is likely to be.

Sorry if my thoughts are a bit rambling, I am  working on understanding the overall concepts of the draft.

[posaune]

Hi Terry you are welcome. I like to talk about that:-)
If you do it after the proportional measuretable it is propotional and with normal cup size (B-C).
If you do it after your measurements it is not (mostly). You have to measure and then it is best to compare it to the proportional table or what you calculated for you using your bustcirc and back width and backlength  with the proportional formulars. 
Measurements are difficult to take even being experienced so these formulars will be a help - if you are not sure.
Look where you differ and why. Make an optical analyse from the body. Par example my armholes are deeper than 1/10 Bu + 10.5 because  ....... I have a hanging shoulder or big arms .....or, or.

There is no bust dart chart und you are right it depends on different measurements and aspects. It developes form them.

The (back) neck size is very hot spot for me. (I have mentioned that my friend and I are working at a drafting system for computer. And nothing is/was so difficult as the neck size. We are not sure where we will end.) Mueller calculates it from the bust circ - which is in our opinion ridiculous. So a big busted girl would have always have a big neck. But  look at the formular: 1/20 Bu + 2 is the back neck.  For 100 Bu this is 7 cm (Neckcir 38.4 cm)  for  130 Bu 8,5cm (neckcirc 43.2 cm).
(I trust no formulare with XX+ a certain Number!!) But there were cleverer men then we who thought the bust circ is a good factor.
In the front length measurement is the back neck included. You have subtract it to get the frontlength,  which is used for Balance controll and the draft. You can measure the back neck -  if you want.  In german it is called a "Spiegel" there is no englisch word which will describe this - it is not mirror or a part of a circ
After you have done you have to sew a test garment.
lg
posaune

[TTailor]

The process I use when drafting for men is very similar, use proportions and double check with the measurements taken, analyse the figure where it is different from proportional and why and then apply to your draft. So the same for the women.
I have used my own measurements for my experiments and have made a mock up, made some observations and alterations so I am coming to a bit more understanding of the draft and how to work with it. It is good to have some time to do this reasearch.


Determining the neck from the bust size is very odd. I mean it does work to some degree until the larger sizes, where it makes more sense to use a formula based on the neck circumference. I believe the shoulder length too is another area of concern for some drafts. There is a point in larger sizes where the shoulder length can become too long.
Do you think in the neck size formula there must be a breaking point, where it stops making sense. How to determine that?
Is it something that can be addressed in a similar way to the front length? For busts over 100 cm, you are calculating a percentage of the difference between proportional and measured?

I am sure you have gone to these thoughts already!
It is one thing on a custom pattern to identify the small neck/ large bust but another thing altogether to develop a formula that works all the time in a commercial type of process.

[spookietoo]

Thankyou, ladies for all of this.

Now I need to print this thread for deeper study!

[Schneiderfrei]

This is also my plan Spookietoo.

[posaune]

I mean it does work to some degree until the larger sizes, where it makes more sense to use a formula based on the neck circumference.
We thought so too. Nada

here you see several examples how systems are drafting the neckhole after the neck circ. All curves measure about 20 cm (40) +- 0.5 cm. Scary what is now the real thing?
We work now with a formula which in the larger necksizes makes the difference between back and front bigger.
I remember when taking a course in shirt construction (men) they linked the neck size with the back width. I must look if I can find it- it is so much years ago.

I believe the shoulder length too is another area of concern for some drafts. There is a point in larger sizes where the shoulder length can become too long.

(older) Mueller  states you have to take the proportional shoulder length for drafting otherwise the bust dart will be too small respec. too large. You correct to the right length afterwards. In the modern drafts of Mueller the shoulder length is derived from back width (+ ease). And you alter afterwards too. But you have to use the back neckhole otherwise.....

Do you think in the neck size formula there must be a breaking point, where it stops making sense. How to determine that?

In ladies drafts mostly the formulars work good between 86-100 I think. As our system shall work for more sizes we will see.

Is it something that can be addressed in a similar way to the front length? For busts over 100 cm, you are calculating a percentage of the difference between proportional and measured?

the Mueller frontlength calculation is nearly linear derived in steps till BU 100 (from 82) from the back length. After this it gets more complicated. You add  1/10 of what is more than 100 to the Backlength + factor + Mehrweite (more width). Then you get the length to calculate the balance
We have not calculated it with percentage till now. It seems to work.
lg
posaune

[TTailor]

(older) Mueller  states you have to take the proportional shoulder length for drafting otherwise the bust dart will be too small respec. too large. You correct to the right length afterwards. In the modern drafts of Mueller the shoulder length is derived from back width (+ ease). And you alter afterwards too. But you have to use the back neckhole otherwise.....

Well that answers a question for me!
I tried a draft for a lady with 124 bust adjusting for her individual measurments and I didnt think the dart size was correct. Of course I may have made mistakes, and I was reading through the German text for the differences in calculations for larger sizes.
I will try again just to clarify.

The hals diagram shows so clearly the dilemma. Wow
So many different ways of drafting, it is clear why sometimes there is much confusion.
Narrow width but deep in front versus wider but shallower in front. I am sure those extreme variations do exist in the population but cannot be applied to everyone. It is a dilemma to find a consistent formula.
It must make more sense to use the neck rather than the bust though.

I wonder if sizing standards have ever taken anything like neck width/circumference into account?

Other than trying a formula out over and over on a variety of people, how else can a draft formula be tested?