Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?

[LeiaOrgana2187]

Just wandering on the tinterwebs and found this preview for a tailoring book...




A closer look, for detail.



Well... It looks like a way on how to draft a Prussian collar, but what makes it unique is that it is drafted in a similar way to a regular coat collar (or even the convertible collar for overcoats, except that this is drafted as fastened high up, closed, in the neck, rather than drafted as an open collar)

Now.... considering that I'm doing a further investigation to this obscure method to shed more light, can anyone be of help? I think some of you are familiar of this.... and a clearer picture of this can be helpful.

[peterle]

This is from a pretty old book, about 1900 -1910? Looks like a military blouse to me.

This is not a prussian collar. A Prussian collar would have a high stand in the center front.
This collar has a stand that fades to nothing at the center front. It´s more a Slipon-collar as we call it in German. I think the line W-U-c-d-W is the collar stand. The line W-a-c is the base construction line, the distance W-c being the needed neckline length.

[posaune]

I agree, Peterle, this collar is used on slipons ectera. It is no flat collar. The stand is integrated. The faded line is the break line (W-c). Still used today.
lg
posaune

[LeiaOrgana2187]

Any clear, usable versions of a slipon draft, similar to that? I kinda assume most military uniforms prior to WW2 used slipon collars as a universal trend.

Can be extracted from vintage uniform patterns from that time....

[peterle]

Looking it up in the Mueller book I found out it is called a "hochgeschlossener Rundkragen" (= high closed round collar). A slipon collar  is very similar but would have a very short revers.
There is everything you need in the scetch:
Draw a straight line starting at W, distance from U will be the stand width (~2,5cm). Length is back neck line+front neck line(c).
Draw the curved line through U to c.
Draw a perpendicular center back  line to this curved line. To the left mark the stand width, to the right mark the collar fall width (about 5cm).
Draw the rest of the collar according to the scetch, the (perpendicular) width at W will be about 7,5-8cm.

I think this collar will be quite straight and will need quite a bit of ironwork, especially stretching the outer edge, to achieve the round shape that is needed.

[LeiaOrgana2187]

Considering the diagram there, is the distance from point a to point c equal to the value of the Hals[loch]speigel (back neck width)?

And what about the distance from point a to point U? Is it equal to the crease measure of a typical lounge coat (usually 2.5 cm)?

And also, is the "front neck line" you said refers to the value of Halsspegiel+2?

[posaune]

you controll the outer seam with the angle d to C. If you make it larger or smaller the outseam will follow. But anyway you have to make a sample.
To be correct : you have to measure both front and back neckhole. (the Hs is only the basis of the neckhole and this another system) The neckhole will be cut maybe a bit larger.
But to make it short: This is the Carré System  founded about 1880?? See the small back neckhole and the slanted back shoulder. The drawing give you an idea how to do it. But I suggest to take a modern draft.
lg
posaune

[LeiaOrgana2187]

Yup. This is the Carré System.

And also, this is what I meant for where to get the measurements for the distance between point W to point c is from the lined I highlighted here (in dark green):





So... anyone has a clearer, usable version of this Carré system draft for a military blouse, that features this collar?

I'm sure someone owned a book about this....

[pfaff260]

Is this what you are looking for?

[LeiaOrgana2187]

Yeah..... (almost, in terms of measures), but thanks you anyway. 

I think there is a closed neck blouse version of that...
Since I believe this...



...belongs to the same book as that...

[peterle]

As I wrote, the distance W-c is the back neck line plus front neck line, not the Halsspiegel.
This is W-H plus H1-H3 in your pic. Reduce for 2 shoulder SAs when you darfted the coat with Sas.

Pfaff260´s drat is for an overcoat. You can´t take this measurements for the blouse wich is worn without something underneath. It would be too high and too large.

[posaune]

Pfaff's pages are a lot later than what Leia showed. the draft looks even modern
I have a book from Rudolf Mauerer from 1931  here. he drafts the collar like this (a simple angled draft).

hope it helps
lg posaune
The neck depends on the Oberweite (bustwidth) and the kurze Taille (Back length)
V-U = 1/8 of Bust, V-W =1/16 of Bust
c-G = Hinterteilsbreite par example for bust width 100 cm = 7 cm , G-H = 2cm. Where C is located from A is complicated.
It is a compilcated system but I think it works well especially with corpulent drafts

[LeiaOrgana2187]

Hmm... any further examples (especially military blouses) for further comparison and study?

[peterle]

Best study is to make a few different examples using different stand widths, curve diameters and widths. Making them in paper is enough to get an impression. You will have to do it anyway when making a specific garment.

[pfaff260]

To right my wrong, here is the jacket.
Posaune, you are wright, this is from the 30's