Men's Trouser Fit Check

[jruley]

I would love to see a pic of the finished trousers like I discribed in #110. Or the paper patterns joined at the inseam. The run of the hole seam is easier to judge.

Why not both?  Here is the blue pair with one leg inside the other:



And here is the paper pattern.  Red is front, pink is back.  Remember you are looking at the cut edges; the fly seam runs 1/2" inside the cut edge on the front.

[peterle]

Thanks for making the pics. I persume the paper patterns are shown with overlapping SAs as if they were sewn.

For me it looks the crotch is a bit too "flat" at it´s bottom. the straight line of the undersides is too straight and angles  too much upwards. usually the underside crotch tip is not a right angle but more pointy than yours. on the other hand your front crotch line looks quite curvy for me. the curve could be flatter/ shallower for my taste (maybe that´s why your fronts look a bit like pair of culottes(?)).

The finished sewing line of front and back should be a continuos harmonious  kinkless line.

Compare the curves and angles to the scetches of your pattern system ( wich one did You use? I have lost track...).

[jruley]

Thanks for making the pics. I persume the paper patterns are shown with overlapping SAs as if they were sewn.

Correct.

For me it looks the crotch is a bit too "flat" at it´s bottom. the straight line of the undersides is too straight and angles  too much upwards. usually the underside crotch tip is not a right angle but more pointy than yours. on the other hand your front crotch line looks quite curvy for me. the curve could be flatter/ shallower for my taste (maybe that´s why your fronts look a bit like pair of culottes(?)).
The finished sewing line of front and back should be a continuos harmonious  kinkless line.
Compare the curves and angles to the scetches of your pattern system ( wich one did You use? I have lost track...).

I started with Mansie's draft, which you can find here:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=56.0

[peterle]

Ok, I see.
This draft differs a lot from the Rundschau I´m used to. Especially the front and back curve and their relation is completely different.  Mansie´s draft also has a right angle at the crotch tip.
For comparison look at the relation of  fly and backseam of these systems:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=773

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=49.0

In both systems the back seam curve is a lot deeper than in the Mansie draft

[jruley]

Ok, I see.
This draft differs a lot from the Rundschau I´m used to. Especially the front and back curve and their relation is completely different.  Mansie´s draft also has a right angle at the crotch tip.
For comparison look at the relation of  fly and backseam of these systems:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=773

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=49.0

In both systems the back seam curve is a lot deeper than in the Mansie draft

It's a pity there isn't one "universal crotch curve", graduated by hip circumference, that all authors could agree on as a starting point.

So, you still think I should try the changes you suggested in #121?  Or something different?

[Thom Bennett]

A general rule of thumb is to join the knee and tip of fork with a straight line then you can see how much curve you are imparting on your inseam, bring it in about ⅜" about a third of the way down the line should do it; a little more on the underside to help with stride.  Mansie's draft is more pointed than Jim's at the fork tips.

[peterle]

Yes I think You should scoop out the back seam. You need it. It´s done in a few minutes.

BTW: in the trousers pic I see you´ve closed the inseam after the crotch seam. My method is the other way round. I´m not sure wether this causes issues.

The other thing I noticed is your back seam inlay. It reaches down very wide into the curved part. This can cause severe tension issues. The curve should only have the SA and the inlay for the center back should start at the end of the curve/ the horizontal hip line. You should crop the inlay in this area. This inlay in a finished pair of trousers is to have a bit of fabric for the case the wearer gains some weight and needs a wider waist. That´s why there is no need for an ilay at the curve.

[jruley]

BTW: in the trousers pic I see you´ve closed the inseam after the crotch seam. My method is the other way round. I´m not sure wether this causes issues.

For me it is easier to finish the waistband before closing the inseam, since you are dealing more with a tube than a finished pair of trousers.  I've never tried it the other way.  Yours is certainly better for crotch alterations .

The other thing I noticed is your back seam inlay. It reaches down very wide into the curved part. This can cause severe tension issues. The curve should only have the SA and the inlay for the center back should start at the end of the curve/ the horizontal hip line. You should crop the inlay in this area. This inlay in a finished pair of trousers is to have a bit of fabric for the case the wearer gains some weight and needs a wider waist. That´s why there is no need for an ilay at the curve.

I'm sure you are right, this was purely for convenience in drafting.  It's easy to draw a straight line parallel to the seat line and fair it into the seam allowance.  Easiest isn't always best...

[jruley]

Yes I think You should scoop out the back seam. You need it. It´s done in a few minutes.

OK.  Here are the trousers with the new seam marked in chalk.  Notice I have not trimmed away any inlays yet:



And here's how they fit:









Maybe I scooped out too much, or in the wrong place; or maybe the wide inlay is to blame; but now there's a nasty fold at the bottom of the crotch seam:



Please advise what to do about this.  I don't want to cut the inlays too deep and ruin a wearable pair of trousers.

[hutch--]

Jim,

I made the suggestion to you some time ago to get rid of the crumpled behind look, instead of having a straight line up the inner leg seam at the top which gives you and inverted V shape, curve the seam up near the top so that you have some thigh gap and it will remove at least some of the extra fabric the is giving you the crumpled behind look. The rest is being addressed by many of the suggestions in this thread, the profile of the back seam needs to be modified.

While older patterns for men's trousers from the Ivy League era tended to have inverted V inner leg seam profiles, much of the later English designs from places like Savile Row have this curve at the top of the inner leg to improve the upper leg, behind area fit.

To experiment with this, you don't need to wreck the trousers, try a number of safety pins to change that upper leg profile and see if it removes some of the problem.

[peterle]

 It´s a bit more difficult to see in the blue trousers, but I think it improved a lot. The CB waist could shift upwards, the wrinkles at the crotch nearly dissapeared. Cutting the inlays will smooth things a bit more. They´re obviousely pulling at the moment as you can see left of the seat seam.

The "nasty" fold you are speaking of is on the right side, isn´t it? I think this is mainly a consequence of your different hips. The right one is higher and rounder. That´s also the reason why the left back leg fold reaches further down than the right.

For the back leg folds try the suggested across seat dart. For a first try pin a horizontal fish dart across the seat about 5-7cm down the pockets, taking out 1,5-2cm at the CB. When successful this alteration is easy to install in the paper pattern for the next pair. (For this finished pair it will be difficult to alter convincingly, because the pockets are already installed, and won´t be parallel to the waist seam anymore.)

[jruley]

I made the suggestion to you some time ago to get rid of the crumpled behind look, instead of having a straight line up the inner leg seam at the top which gives you and inverted V shape, curve the seam up near the top so that you have some thigh gap and it will remove at least some of the extra fabric the is giving you the crumpled behind look. The rest is being addressed by many of the suggestions in this thread, the profile of the back seam needs to be modified.

Thanks Hutch for your suggestion.  If you are referring to the alteration in #3, I believe that's contrary to peterle's advice in #85 (the "harmonic" curve discussion).

For the back leg folds try the suggested across seat dart. For a first try pin a horizontal fish dart across the seat about 5-7cm down the pockets, taking out 1,5-2cm at the CB. When successful this alteration is easy to install in the paper pattern for the next pair. (For this finished pair it will be difficult to alter convincingly, because the pockets are already installed, and won´t be parallel to the waist seam anymore.)

You've lost me - when was this suggested?  Also, since I already have one dart in the trouser back, wouldn't it make more sense to manipulate it rather than take a second one?

[jruley]

I decided to investigate a bit more.  First, here is a clearer view of the problem area.  No changes were made:


Of course the folds are now in different places! 
This made me think tension on the inlays was the problem, so I trimmed away some excess; leaving enough to go back to the original profile if necessary.  Here is the result:



This seems even messier, though some of that may be due to taking the trousers on and off repeatedly.

Which way should I jump next?

[jruley]

Thinking that tension from the inlays might have been the original problem with the seat, I decided to test using the tan pair.  Here they are with no changes:



And here after trimming the inlays:


No big changes IMO.  That's not to say the inlays didn't cause the problem with the blue pair, with the deeper crotch seam.

[peterle]

strangely the second pic in 132 doesn´t show, so I can´t say anything...

Tom suggested in #102 to take out a wedge at the waist seam. This approach has in mind to alter the finished pair.  the dart I descibed has the same effect, to lift the underside at  the bodie´s center, but is meant to alter the paper pattern in the long run. I chose it deeper, because the long folds of the back legs end at this hight. This dart has nothing to do with the vertical dart of the undersides.

For the tan pair: The second pic looks cleaner in the crotch area, but when looking closely, you wear the pair rotated a bit to the left compared to the first. this milds the crotch folds of the right leg but increases the long fold starting at the left hip.

Pin the horizontal dart, it takes just two minutes, and repost.