Men's Trouser Fit Check

[peterle]

Well, a pair of trousers is a complicated thing, just five seams to fit every figure.
When the room for the trunk isn´t positioned right, even a balanced trouser won´t fit, because crotch and back seam restricts the proper movement of the garment.

When your taken balance measures don´t correlate to the pattern, you will get a hint, what´s not ok. These measures help to recognise, wether you have a rounder or flatter butt, rounder or flatter hips than (then?) the pattern draft´s  "normal" figure. ( and as we know from the jacket, your´s is not the most average one). But the balance measures don´t give information about the right position of the trunk.

Maybe you should give the rundschau pattern a try, it provides a lot of adjustment possibilities.  The Mansie trousers are meant for "beginners" (wich probably means less complicated, but also less sophisticated).

[jruley]

Maybe you should give the rundschau pattern a try, it provides a lot of adjustment possibilities.  The Mansie trousers are meant for "beginners" (wich probably means less complicated, but also less sophisticated).

I know you are more familiar with Rundschau, which would probably help to recognize what is causing issues.

OTOH, we already know I have several deviations from a proportionate figure.  Specifically:

- flat seat
- both hips forward
- high right hip
- larger right hip

So we would have to apply all these changes to the draft.  Wouldn't that just lead us back to the same point we are now?

The Mansie draft gives a style I like, so I'm hoping with a little more tuning of the seat area it will be "good enough". 

[Thom Bennett]

Rundschau is good but also the later T & C drafts which are more simple.  I wish you had Rory's draft it's simple while robust, especially around the seat area, alas it cost me. I know you like to draw on your seat inlay on the pattern but IMHO it is distracting your eye as to the correct run for seat, just write a note to remind you to add inlay; it really isn't correct practice, just a thought. 

One thing about knowing different drafts is that one can start to recognise which points are for style and those which create the structure.  Mansie's draft is very basic meant for students, you may find it more precise to use a "professional" system.  You like quite loose straight trousers, why not look at the later MTOC trouser systems such as Whife.

Working on your pattern you can cross-check your balance measures and make those alterations, straighten up the seat and scoop out the hollo; the balance measures will also tell you more about where CB should be.  Both hips forward, or sway-back one would normally raise CF to give length, sometimes moving it out a little too.  This will give you your side run, while CB would be lowered to something like ¾" above your parallel waist line; it generally follows that the centre-back is also moved forward as anatomically the seat flattens as the hips go forward.

Also looking at your feet it might be an idea to close the legs up a bit, ⅜" should do it.  This will mean that your inseam will be less curved to make it run into the knee smoothly.  Give a bit more curve on the in-seam helps to bring the seat in under the hollow when you stretch it with your iron, giving a hollow to shrink in giving a pleasing silhouette. I think I am right but, I'm still learning myself. 

[jruley]

Here are the alterations I propose to make to the seat area.  No seat inlays Tom since I haven't cut the pattern out yet .

Here the black line is a copy of the basic pattern (right side only).  The red line is the seat scooping from #128.  I "walked" both seams, and this increases the length of the CB seam by 1/2":



Now I take out the horizontal dart peterle first suggested in #130 (more red lines at top of pattern).  This takes away 3/4" of length from CB, more than we added by scooping!

I notice this also straightens the seat angle a bit, and makes the side seam a little rounder.



What to do next?  My thoughts are to get back the 3/4" length at CB by extending the CB seam along the new seam line.   Also, if we pass the back of the trousers up that requires us to shorten the side seam a corresponding amount.  Moving the back up 1/4" will bring the knee notches and bottom edges of the leg back into line, so let's try it.

This combination gives the green line shown at top of pattern:



Would anyone suggest changes before I cut out the next pair?  I do plan to baste them first, and leave inlays at the top for "unforeseen circumstances"...

[Greger]

Suggest mark the darts, but don't cut them. This leaves the top free for adjustments. And maybe you might like to change the dart, anyway.

[Thom Bennett]

The run of the side seam can be straightened if required, I think it looks okay from here. That's correct taking out the dart/wedge will straighten up the seat a little and is something one needs to be aware of as it changes the balance but in your case that little bit of straightening could be a positive effect.  If you raise the CB to regain the ¾" you will be undoing the purpose of the dart you took out, if your wedge is the same as the dart you pinned then that is where CB should be.  To get the waistline right at the back you will need to scoop out the hollow to allow the back to pass up.  Imagine the seat notch as a pivot point, doing the alteration the undersides will swing up getting rid of the roping.  This pivoting changes the angle of the legs, you also stand with pointing feet so I would swing the legs out in too, ⅜" as I described above.

I'm off for Sunday Lunch.

[jruley]

To get the waistline right at the back you will need to scoop out the hollow to allow the back to pass up. 

When I tried that (see #146) it didn't work.

[peterle]

  Also, if we pass the back of the trousers up that requires us to shorten the side seam a corresponding amount.  Moving the back up 1/4" will bring the knee notches and bottom edges of the leg back into line, so let's try it.

Why shorten the side seam? We don´t want to pass up the whole back, just the center back.



Regarding the Rundschau pattern there is a reason I wanted you to work it through. It delivers a fair amount of insights into complexity of trousers.
For example the fork tip: It´s not constructed at the crotch line, it is constructed from the hip line. Thinking it over we can learn several important things:
First, the through measure is always located in the in hip highth. When we have to change the through measure, we have to change it at the hip line.(flat terriere and wide hips demand a smaller through measure, a bubble butt needs a larger one.

Second: When we change the knee width of a touser, the fork tip will change also, because it is constructed as the crossing point of the through measure and the knee. So we can learn that a given through measure won´t change, even when fork tip changes because of the knee width. We can also learn that through measure and fork tip are related, but not the same. The fork tip depends highly of the trousers style.

Another thing is the construction of the seat angle. The system shows an easy way how to construct and change the seat angle. Thinking it over we recognise, that a different seat angle doesn´t change the  hight of the center back waist. Mostly the left-right position changes and the length of the back seam. but not the hight.  We have to be aware of this when we install a horizontal dart. This dart changes the side seam, the left -right position and the hight of CB waist. Not always wanted and not the same as changing the seat angle. 

[peterle]

looking for something different I found this, wich reminds me of your trousers. Maybe it´s just that simple.

[jruley]

First:  The through measure is always located at the hip height. When we have to change the through measure, we have to change it at the hip line.  Flat derriere and wide hips demand a smaller through measure, a bubble butt needs a larger one.

Second: When we change the knee width of a trouser, the fork tip will change also, because it is constructed as the crossing point of the through measure and the knee. So we can learn that a given through measure won´t change, even when fork tip changes because of the knee width. We can also learn that through measure and fork tip are related, but not the same. The fork tip depends highly of the trousers style.

Third:  Construction of the seat angle. Thinking it over we recognise, that a different seat angle doesn´t change the  height of the center back waist. Mostly the left-right position changes and the length of the back seam. but not the height.  We have to be aware of this when we install a horizontal dart. This dart changes the side seam, the left -right position and the height of CB waist. Not always wanted and not the same as changing the seat angle. 

Hope you didn't mind a little editing for typos.

These three points (preferably with diagrams showing the ideas) would make a great pinned instructional post in the trousers section!

I suspect these apply to more drafts than the Rundschau.  This is the sort of thing serious students need to know, which can't be learned simply by locating points A - Z and then connecting dots with lines and curves.

Is the "through measure" the Spaltdurchmesser?  English language drafts don't seem to use this term, or recognize the importance of it.

[jruley]

looking for something different I found this, wich reminds me of your trousers. Maybe it´s just that simple.

Thanks!

So, referring to the first pic in #153:  should I start with the seat scooped out or not?

[Thom Bennett]

To get the waistline right at the back you will need to scoop out the hollow to allow the back to pass up. 

When I tried that (see #146) it didn't work.

I should have said swing up. 

[jruley]

The alteration peterle proposed in #158 is simple enough I decided to go ahead and try it.  The blue trousers have been abused enough, so let's work with the tan pair of same pattern.
Here the new seam lines for the alteration are chalked in light blue:




Here is the result:








Compare this to the last time we saw these (#100).   They feel better in the seat now.

[jruley]

Checking some references, the alteration in #158 is quite similar to one given in Clarence Poulin's 1952 book for a flat seat.  Poulin also reduces the height at CB, so I decided to try pinning out some length to see the effect on the horseshoe folds.  Here is the result:









Any suggestions where to go from here?

[Thom Bennett]

Have you, at some point added to the stride part of the fork?  If you look at peterle's post the image shows a reduction in this area, maybe whittle off a bit as shown to see if that will clean them up.  The shortened fork will bring the fabric around and up into the 'V', look at the roping and you can see how this could work; the cloth seems to be collapsing down the middle.  Dropping the point of the fork ¼" to pick up the cloth and giving a little more shape to the inseam would bring the cloth round more. 

It looks like your right leg would need a little more than the left leg, this would bring the r/h hem straight too.