Developing the "Classic Fit" Shirt

[jruley]

Given the somewhat disappointing results of the close-fitting (originally torso line) shirt project:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=316.120

I have decided to continue by trying the "Classic Fit" draft shown in the same book (Patternmaking for Menswear by M & I Kim).

The book shows how to adjust a "close-fitting sloper" for "classic fit" by simple grading techniques.  I applied this to the existing sloper pattern pieces as follows:

Yoke:  No changes, except both ends extended 1/4".

Back:  Top of scye (at yoke seam) extended horizontally 1/4".  Bottom of scye lowered 1/4" vertically and extended horizontally 1/2".  Hem extended 1/2" horizontally.

Front:  Same as back.

I constructed a new toile body from these pieces which is shown below, worn over a T-shirt as it will be in practice.









The new toile seems to follow my body shape just as the tighter one did, but is much freer and more comfortable.  One new issue is that the top of the button stand wants to stand away from my neck.  Does this mean I should cut the shoulders of the fronts straighter (effectively closing a dart in the neck hole) or is it just something that should be accepted in an easier fitting shirt?

[posaune]

No, For me it is not to accept. It means something is wrong. As you see you have little surplus over the shoulder (fabric stands away) . And maybe the front shoulder must be moved out front neck is too big or back neck to small.
First you have to clip into the right neck hole. See at side view how it hangs here. 1 cm deep clips -  start with 0.5 at CB. Left looks okay but clip anyway.
second: there is a flaw in your shoulder line. It dipps at the center (laying on the shoulder) and the end stands away. Open the shoulder at front. Pin it back 1 cm away from the back yoke seam neckhole (yes the neckline will not lay flush anymore). And repin it so that you get a straight shoulder line not this pagoda-style. It is best to let it do by some one. And adding at center shoulder will give a bit more length over the bust which will be welcomed.
now do it to the left - here the shoulder is worser.
lg
poaune
but you see, now you can wear a T-shirt under the shirt with the right ease

[Henry Hall]

If you compare the photos here with the photos of the previous project toile, you'll see that they are almost identical and thus the same remedies are likely to apply.

I would throw the M & I Kim book into the fire and start with a better draft.

[jruley]

If you compare the photos here with the photos of the previous project toile, you'll see that they are almost identical and thus the same remedies are likely to apply.

I would throw the M & I Kim book into the fire and start with a better draft.

With respect, I disagree.  I did not go back to the original draft, but applied the grade to the finished sloper pattern which already has been adjusted for scoliosis and a dropped shoulder.  So the M&I Kim draft, like any other, is merely a starting point.  A different starting point might need different adjustments, but the result would be just as dependent on the skill (or lack thereof) of the fitter.

And in any case, the book would not burn well in my wood stove, and can always be used as a doorstop .

I offer a simple challenge to those who think the textbook is at fault here.  Select a convenient chest size (yours or otherwise) and draft the close-fitting and "classic fit" slopers.  Then take your favorite proportional shirt drafting system (Rundschau or otherwise) and do that draft using the same measurements.  It would be interesting to see how much they differ, and we might all learn something.

Reading posaune's comments, it occurred to me that the root cause might be too much curvature in the front yoke seams.  So here I have straightened them, which seems to have largely taken the "pagoda shape" out of the shoulder.  This still left the CF standing off  my neck in front, so I have pinned a couple of small darts in the front neck line.  These will not be sewn, but material will be taken out by folding the pattern (what I meant by straightening the shoulders).  This seems to be pulling the top of the button stand back into its desired place.









I see one remaining issue.  In the side views the chest and waist lines are not horizontal, but are higher in front than back.  This would indicate a balance issue, but the shirt fits well (I think) around the neck and scyes.  This slant will only be visible in fabrics that have a strong horizontal element, like plaids.  So, should I address it (possibly adding length above the chest line in front and reducing a corresponding length in back)?  Or is something more complicated required, like adding and removing wedges?

Or is it worth the trouble?

[jruley]

Here I have added a couple of test sleeves.  The right one is a new draft using the basic shirt sleeve in the textbook.  The left one is developed from the tight fitting shirt (peterle's sleeve head), with extra width added at the top of sleeve cap to make the seam length agree with the new scye.  As it worked out, both sleeves have almost equal cap height and bicep width.

I think the left one fits a little cleaner, but it is tight over the shoulder bone, as in the other shirt.  As a result I can only lift my arm a little way before feeling pressure.













Comments?

[hutch--]

Jim,

I had a good look at you finished shirt and there was very little wrong with it. Just as casual suggestions, I would give you a bit more room around the shoulders so you had more movement, the second is probably a bit harder to do, What I know as sleeve cast. With the pattern pointing your arms almost straight downwards it will load the underarm when you lift your arms up high. What I am suggesting is to set the sleeve cast (the angle of the sleeves to the body) a bit higher angle. It will reduce the underarm load and allow more vertical movement with the arms.

[posaune]

Better, Jim. You have corrected the shoulderline (left shoulder should be a bit more taken in at armhole - bigger slope and therefor more length)  and narrowed the front neckhole (inserting here a bust dart  see:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aLUk0Xlee0).
(Sorry to say, I think this will increase the balance fault. In the fitting bodice you had this all the time)
Never the less I repeat clip your neckhole. Look at the side view (very good to see on the right side) - see how the seam is running over the ridge? it should be more fluent in my opion.
And I advise yo to check your armhole depth. You have a Tee underneath you need more length then and the sleeve should be draft a little wider.
A trick is to cut the sleeves with more "Hebelänge". This means to add at the sides seams 1 cm horizontal on both sides.
lg
posaune

[jruley]

I would give you a bit more room around the shoulders so you had more movement, the second is probably a bit harder to do, What I know as sleeve cast. With the pattern pointing your arms almost straight downwards it will load the underarm when you lift your arms up high. What I am suggesting is to set the sleeve cast (the angle of the sleeves to the body) a bit higher angle. It will reduce the underarm load and allow more vertical movement with the arms.

Hutch,
I think I understand what you are suggesting.  To put it in terms used by the textbook, think of a shallow triangle with the long side horizontal (mountain top shape).  This horizontal base line is the bicep line, and is the circumference of the sleeve around the upper arm.  The vertical distance from this baseline to the top of sleeve is the cap height.  The slanted lines from this vertex to the ends of the bicep line (which become curves in the finished draft) are the front and back of scye lines.

To fit in the scye with no ease, there is a relationship between cap height and bicep width.  A higher sleeve cap will be tighter over the biceps and vice versa.
What you are calling a higher sleeve "cast" would be a lower cap height, which would increase width over the biceps.  This would not give more room around the shoulders per se, but would make the sleeve looser on the arm.

Of course in the new draft I can also lower the bottom of scye as posaune is suggesting.  This would increase the length of the scye, and I could get more bicep room without reducing the cap height.

The textbook recommends a cap height as a proportion of the bicep width (1/3 minus 1-1/8") which in effect sets a "cast angle" which is typical for shirts.  A higher cap (cast more vertical) will hang more cleanly but is tighter on the arm and restricts movement.  A lower cap (cast more horizontal) will be looser on the arm and freer, but will not hang as well with the arm at the side.

All quite a balancing act!

[jruley]

Here the body has new fronts with the following changes:

- Shoulder straightened to pull in the front neck

- 3/8" length added to front above chest line

- Lower front scye reshaped to scoop out a little less











With the scye reshaped the test sleeves still fit:

[jruley]

Back to Hutch's point in post #5.

Here is a shirt made a couple of years ago.  The pattern started as McCall's 8409 "8 in one" men's shirt pattern, and has been progressively altered for a closer fit.  There is no correction for scoliosis or dropped shoulder.

The body pattern pieces are fairly similar to the ones under development.  The yoke is a little wider and comes further down the back.  The back has 2" extra width which is taken into pleats at the shoulder blades, which allows a straight cut body without dragging on the hips.  I think this also does a fairly good job of hiding the scoliosis.

The major difference is the sleeves.  This shirt has a much wider and lower sleeve cap than the one under development.  This (and probably the extra width in back) allow for complete freedom of movement around the shoulders.  The cost is the wrinkles and fluting you can see in the sleeves.

I might draft a sleeve like this for casual shirts, but I think I want something a bit more tailored looking for dress shirts.

[jruley]

I decided to go ahead and draft a sleeve with a lower cap.  The width of the bicep line was increased 1/2" each side, which lowered the cap about 3/4".  The resulting sleeve replaced the one in the left scye.

After trying it on I could go either way.  The sleeve is easier fitting around the shoulder, and allows more freedom to lift the arm.  It's a little messier looking but not horrible IMO.

Any suggestions?

[peterle]

please stay stitch your neck hole. it seems to be stretched.

It´s a matter of taste wether you want your sleeve that wide or not. I´m sure  the old one isn´t too tight, I think the wideness just isn´t distributed right. the sleeves seem to have too much room at the front biceps and are tight at the back.

another issue is that your right shoulder bone and arm are shifted towards the back compared to the left. (compare the profile pics, concentrate on the distance  between sleeve edge and back edge). This caused the fold at the back in the older version and now causes the pulling fold at the right front armhole. To fix it you could  shift the  whole lower half of the right armhole line towards the center back for 1-1,5cm and smooth in the lines to the existing yoke points.

[jruley]

another issue is that your right shoulder bone and arm are shifted towards the back compared to the left. (compare the profile pics, concentrate on the distance  between sleeve edge and back edge). This caused the fold at the back in the older version and now causes the pulling fold at the right front armhole. To fix it you could  shift the  whole lower half of the right armhole line towards the center back for 1-1,5cm and smooth in the lines to the existing yoke points.

That's interesting, but are you sure it's not an optical illusion?  I have no reference point when I turn sideways, so maybe I'm not standing square to the camera?  This is obvious in the last set, you can see more of my upper back from the left side than the right.

Looking at all the pictures in this thread, it seems to me that the tip of my right shoulder is actually further in front of the shoulder line (black line on yoke) than the tip of my left.  The right arm is more bent, so the elbow is further back.

The right side of the yoke is also slightly smaller than the left due to the alterations that were made for the dropped shoulder.

[peterle]

of course I can´t be sure, but all pics (including the other threads) seem to show this backwards shoulder. And the fabric behavior indicates it.

But try yourself: what happens to the fabric when you move your right shoulder forward a little bit? Do the folds dissappear? Will they increase?

[posaune]

I second you Peterle. Jim's scoliose is not only 2 dimensional it is 3. A difficult to fit twisted posture (I do not want to repeat it again - but look at the neck hole).
And I second the distribution of width in the sleeve. Maybe a little rotation would be welcomed.
lg
posaune