Charlie Watts - great Tailoring comments

[stoo23]

The thing with men's tailoring is that you don't really design it.
If I went to my tailors (I have two in London) and I said I wanted a notched lapel on a double breasted suit, they wouldn't make it.
It's always a peaked lapel on a double-breasted suit.
There are things no good men's tailor will do and you think, why not? but then when you see someone try those things, they look wrong.
It's a hundred years of making a suit a certain way and I love the tradition of that.

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[Greger]

Some tailors are very narrow minded. Some are limited. And, of course, somethings are foolish and the tailor needs to defend their name.

[Gerry]

When I was a teenager my friends and I would use a particular tailor who'd taken cutting classes as a young man, so he could make anything. Consequently he was popular with musicians, local theatres and anyone who was fashion forward and required more outré stuff. What we had made was fairly conservative by comparison with a lot of the stage wear he was involved in, but basically if you showed him a photo of what you wanted, that was proof enough that the concept worked and he was up for the challenge.

Looking back at it, some of the things we wore made us look like clowns, so there's a happy medium. Though I don't like establishments that only have a house style - 'take it or go elsewhere'. It shows a lack of imagination and/or experience IMO.

[stoo23]

In the 'post' I found this,... someone mentioned that;

the suit Charlie is wearing, originally belonged, to Edward VIII. Charlie picked it up at auction.
Apparently if you're a Duke or a King you can have whatever lapel you want!   

[jruley]

Apparently if you're a Duke or a King you can have whatever lapel you want!   

And that's the real question:  Who (in each generation) gets to decide the difference between "narrow-minded and limited" on one hand, and "foolish or clownish" on the other? 

 

[Hendrick]

Some tailors are very narrow minded. Some are limited. And, of course, somethings are foolish and the tailor needs to defend their name.

Brilliant, after all it's all about the persona, their "Gestalt"(S. Freud), apart from craftmanship obviously understanding that makes a tailor I suppose.

Cheers, Hendrick 

[DrLang]

And that's the real question:  Who (in each generation) gets to decide the difference between "narrow-minded and limited" on one hand, and "foolish or clownish" on the other? 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I figure it's all about the individual's general public influence. That's not me, so I decided that it's all about how confidently I can own it while wearing it. I think that it's interesting how controversial stiff front shirts with wing collars with black tie have become in the UK, even though that's how black tie started. It seems like it just takes a big and confident personality if you want to buck whatever the current trend it.

[Greger]

Some people are artists with clothes. And that's all it takes.
Desirable. Sometimes noticeable talent doesn't take.
Culture is ever changing and clothes are about culture. Not to mention lots of other things.
How many tailors have made Obi-Wan Kenobi robes? One person I saw, once in a while, a man who wore clothes like the pictures of Jesus. It was obviously made by a tailor.
A community tailor has a lot more options than a stuffy Saville Row tailor. Some of them make unusual clothes for certain clients, but they don't want to be known for them.
I remember the days of styles and fashions, didn't want to be out of either.
Some (generally older) business men stayed away from fashions. Styles are 5 years and longer. Don't want to be out of style.
Tailors like the change, because customers come back and keep the tailor bu$y. Styles need to last for a length of time, otherwise cost is too high for many customers. People want to be included.
Fashions are cheaper, they come and go quickly.
It used to be the wealthy boys who bought this.
Mass-production made it possible for the middle-class, but it lacks fit and personality.
I like the tailoring of the past, small town and community tailors. They had opportunity to make many different garments at different prices.
Grandfather said that, "Fit matters". The rest is how much a person can pay.
A poor man's suit may not have all the pockets (flaps will do), but get the value of fit, a wealthy man pays for more.
Mass-production lacks the wealth of fit.
Some people have the misconception that "bespoke" has to have... when it doesn't.

[jruley]

I like the tailoring of the past. Small town and community tailors. They had opportunity to make many different garments at different prices. Grandfather said that, "Fit matters". The rest is how much a person can pay. A poor man's suit may not have all the pockets (flaps will do), but get the value of fit. Wealthy man pays for more. Mass-production lacks the wealth of fit. Some people have the misconception that "bespoke" has to have... when it doesn't.

Nostalgia is a fine thing, but we are entering the second quarter of the 21st century and a truly "poor" man is unlikely to own a suit, much less a bespoke one.  If he needs one for a special occasion he can rent it.

I once read a series of articles by a French landscape photographer on "being an artist", "being in business", and "being an artist in business".  He pointed out that if you want to make $60,000 per year you could sell 60,000 art prints at $1 per print.  Or, you could sell just one print and charge $60,000.  It's all about finding the right buyer and developing the skills and aesthetic appeal necessary to sell your product.

Style details like pockets only account for a few of the hours required to make a bespoke jacket using traditional techniques.  How much is your time worth?  If you undervalue your product you'll have to make up the difference on volume in order to earn a reasonable income.  Can you really do that while maintaining the standards expected of bespoke clothing?

[Greger]

Back in the 70s a local tailor his price range started about $475. When I started asking about the details he quickly said the price can shoot up into the thousands depending on the details asked for.
Back then pants were about $100. I said something and his price range immediately went up.
What is bespoke quality? Good question. What is bespoke?
What part of England did it originate? Someone said Saville Row. I don't think so.
All tailors in England were bespoke, quality varied.
Their literature has plenty to say about it.
Blazers were not the fine coats they became later, some tailors wouldn't make sports coats, blazers, etc. Reading about Henry Poole; where he had one place for the wealthy, Saville Row with another place for the middle-class. Another place for the fashions, another place in France.
Only the wealthy got bespoke? Today's world of bespoke standard varies on Saville Row.
Anderson and Shepard has less stitching than the other tailors there. One book says six rolls of pad stitching per inch on chest canvas. Who does that anymore?
You can buy cloth with diamonds in it and gold thread. The price for anything like this is very high. Rubies, Emeralds.
The way Saville Row wants to claim bespoke as only Saville Row and they didn't invent pad stitching do I even want to use the word bespoke.
Tailoring means coat with pad stitching. Tailor is good enough. Basically bespoke is two fittings. Custom is the same as bespoke but the English use it as the same as the US MTM, everyone is wrestling to out do each other with the numerous words.
Sartorial is another word, each country has their own and all of this changes as new methods become popular. Poulins coat shows almost no pad stitches, just enough to do the job. Could easily put 10 X more in, the price goes up with it. A cheaper coat wouldn't have all that canvas and/or felt.
Some tailors use blocks. If you know how to adjust them quickly then fitting time is very little. Block pattern with grading up or down in size, figuration's, etc changing the style.
Think you can get accurately 8 sizes from one block.
Fitting is just dangling from the shoulders. As long as the cloth and canvas are dangling properly together the front overlap is decided. Shoulder seam and side seam, Back seam, Scye drawn, Collar foundation traced around Pocket decisions, Sew and press.
Second fitting; Finish sleeves and collar and final press, Buttonholes and buttons.
Some poor people save their money.
The rich add a lot more stitching.
If the poor ask for classic style (plane jane) it might be good for 30 years. A beautiful press job and, as cheap as it is made, it will stand out. A lot of stitches handles different.
One of my peers in school, certainly not rich, if middle-class it was the lower end, he asked a tailor to make him a school jacket, (Think it was the tailor I walked past on my way to school), the boy was 11 years old.
It had a couple of pockets, don't remember if the jacket zipped or buttoned. Balance, shoulder slope, collar, and scye/sleeves and large enough for a growing child.
It probably took the tailor an hour to sew it up. No pad stitching.

[jruley]

If the poor ask for classic style (plane jane) it might be good for 30 years.

What you're missing is how mass production has changed the way people value clothing.  Cheap clothing today is like running water and central heating, it's just taken for granted.  Burn a hole in your favorite T-shirt?  Fine, use it for a shop rag and buy another 3-pack at Wal-Mart.

Fit?  Many people today equate "fit" with comfort.  They've never had a well fitted suit, so they have no idea how clothing should fit and don't appreciate the difference.

I think we are left with two major customer bases for bespoke clothing:

- Clothing nerds, who may be of any economic class

- Those who dress to show their wealth

If your prices are lower than the going rate, a wealthy customer will want to know why.  Where are you cutting corners, and is your cloth of lesser quality?  He might simply go with a more expensive maker just because "more must be better".

Attempting to get everyone back into bespoke clothes in today's market is probably an excellent idea - if you have a large fortune you want to make into a small one.

[DrLang]

I don't know where it started, but there is is a long held rule of thumb that an ounce of gold should be able to buy a decent man's suit. That has held surprisingly accurate for a long time.

$475 in 1975 adjusted for inflation today? About $2,900. Today's gold spot price? About $3,200. Most people today usually only drop that kind of money on life necessities. And a suit is simply no longer a life necessity for most people. I would say that only about half the people that I see show up for well paying engineering job interviews wear a full suit. And that trend changes expectations to where you need to worry a little bit about being dressed too fancy for a job interview.

Mass manufacturing has definitely changed things a lot. I think that the reality is that most people, or at least most men, never really wanted to care much about their clothing. It was a necessary investment to get through life.

[Hendrick]

I don't know where it started, but there is is a long held rule of thumb that an ounce of gold should be able to buy a decent man's suit. That has held surprisingly accurate for a long time.

$475 in 1975 adjusted for inflation today? About $2,900. Today's gold spot price? About $3,200. Most people today usually only drop that kind of money on life necessities. And a suit is simply no longer a life necessity for most people. I would say that only about half the people that I see show up for well paying engineering job interviews wear a full suit. And that trend changes expectations to where you need to worry a little bit about being dressed too fancy for a job interview.

Mass manufacturing has definitely changed things a lot. I think that the reality is that most people, or at least most men, never really wanted to care much about their clothing. It was a necessary investment to get through life.

Don't forget the shift in "standing" propelled by the new "luxury market". Todays' "nouveau riche", will easily (and thoughtlessly), shell out a thousand dollars for a pair of sneakers from a luxury brand and 600 dollars or more for a single jersey t-shirt with a logo from, say, Gucci or Balenciaga.
D_squared jeans go for 500 dollars hands down, just to name a few... Guys spend money on what they reckon gives them authority.
There is a shift to "silent luxury" lately; even some Hollywood people are buying brands like Brunello Cuccinelli...

Cheerio, Hendrick

[Gerry]

I wonder what generation z will make of bespoke when/if they can afford it. Their current philosophy - at least those living in the West - is, ironically , very Maoist in outlook. They all dress alike so that no one is above or beneath another. That way you judge a person on their individual merits, not on how flashy their clothes are.

Their uniform of choice has its roots in US utilitarian workwear and hip hop culture. All the school kids were on holiday last week and I didn't see one that wasn't wearing jeans, sweatshirt and sneakers.

To someone of my age, who grew up in the post-punk era, this is anathama. Individualism was everything. Even if one subscribed to the dress code of a particular youth culture, there was still scope for looking different amongst one's peers.

[Hendrick]

I wonder what generation z will make of bespoke when/if they can afford it. Their current philosophy - at least those living in the West - is, ironically , very Maoist in outlook. They all dress alike so that no one is above or beneath another. That way you judge a person on their individual merits, not on how flashy their clothes are.

Their uniform of choice has its roots in US utilitarian workwear and hip hop culture. All the school kids were on holiday last week and I didn't see one that wasn't wearing jeans, sweatshirt and sneakers.

To someone of my age, who grew up in the post-punk era, this is anathama. Individualism was everything. Even if one subscribed to the dress code of a particular youth culture, there was still scope for looking different amongst one's peers.

Marketing and constant exposure to mass communiation (social media) has changed self-perception and merged fashion and style totally into the entertainment industry. The power of marketing, social media have made "not belonging" one of the greatest fears of todays youth. In fact, todays advertising proves that by mostly showing groups of likeminded folks as opposed to strong individuals. So in fact youth culture has been turned around and now has a much more strongly affirmative character than in the past. Actually, the once "revolutionary" streetstyle has become just as banal as the bourgeois style it has fought to do away with...

Cheers, Hendrick