Front balance and back balance

[jruley]

The terms "front balance" and "back balance" seem to be fundamental to German coat drafting systems.  Yet they aren't used (AFAIK) in English language drafts.

Could someone (maybe peterle or Schneiderfrei) post a sticky thread, with a diagram showing these balances and how to measure them?

[TSjursen]

They are just terms that describe the length of the front relative to the length of the back. There are a thousand ways to measure them and none are accurate unless you have experience. Müller & Sohn might try to persuade you that they have either developed the perfect calculation for the front and back balance, or that there is a one and only correct way to measure it, but this is not true. I don't know, they might have stopped saying these thing but they did so in the 60s. If you want to do it by measure instead of by eye, find a method that is not too complicated and stick with it for a while. I recommend J King Wilson's book (Art of Cutting and Fitting) as an intro to the concept.

[jruley]

I'm not suggesting these measures are some sort of magic trick.  But if our German members are going to use them in fitting threads, it behooves us to know exactly what they are talking about.

[Hendrick]

They are just terms that describe the length of the front relative to the length of the back. There are a thousand ways to measure them and none are accurate unless you have experience. Müller & Sohn might try to persuade you that they have either developed the perfect calculation for the front and back balance, or that there is a one and only correct way to measure it, but this is not true. I don't know, they might have stopped saying these thing but they did so in the 60s. If you want to do it by measure instead of by eye, find a method that is not too complicated and stick with it for a while. I recommend J King Wilson's book (Art of Cutting and Fitting) as an intro to the concept.

Agree! To me, there is only one balance. And then there are front and back lengths to cover the fullness of the body. However, thirty or so (...) years, ago I had the pleasure of working with a lady who had spent years of working at couture houses. She measured the body with a tape measure around the back neck, over the breastpoint to the exact 1/8th of the waistline, marked by an elastic string. Then again, over the shoulderpoint to the waist. She called them the most important balance lines...

Cheers, Hendrick

[TSjursen]

I'm not suggesting these measures are some sort of magic trick.  But if our German members are going to use them in fitting threads, it behooves us to know exactly what they are talking about.

I didn't mean to suggest that. (And absolutely no offence meant either, just to be clear.) My point is that nobody knows exactly what they are talking about when they talk about the front and back balance. I'll leave it to the Germans to explain what they meant by these terms in the thread you are referring to

[Schneiderfrei]

jruley, here is my old post from 10 years ago:

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,61.msg251.html

The only images that are missing are the front of the J King Wilson Book and the download link from way back.

Here are a couple of current download links:

https://archive.org/details/kingwilsoncuttingfitting1958

https://www.scribd.com/document/306187268/1950-Art-of-Cutting-and-Fitting-A-Practical-Manual-Wilson-pdf

If you want to buy a hard copy, new. There's an interesting commentary on the fact that noone holds the copyright and scholars consider it a valuable book for the future.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Cutting-Fitting-Practical-Manual/dp/1019352337

I have always had an eye for the old measurement techniques, but I'll have to find them later. I'm certain peterle would have one.

[peterle]

There is nothing mysterious or unprecise in these terms.
Of course there is just one balance. "Balanced" or "in balance" means the chest line is level at the front and the back.
Where does balance happen? It happens in the vertical distances between the neck point and the front and back chest line. When their relation  corresponds with the individual body the coat is in balance.
"Front balance" and "back balance" are just the names for these distances and are obviousley shorts for "front balance distance" and "back balance distance".Maybe these terms are not  self explaining like a lot of technical terms, but they are precise.
And I'm pretty sure, they are not a speciality of German systems. I would be glad when a nativ speaker would post more common English terms regarding this topic if there are any. Probably they are more easily to understand.

[TTailor]

I think most English/British drafting texts never mention this, you are given a myriad of drafts, but no fitting information or information about taking or applying specific balance measures,  whereas in the German texts I have, it is explained clearly.
If specific measurements for balance are required like *strap* they use a device or a measurement that has a nebulous end point.
It makes me think the British systems prefer to fix the essentials of fit on the body rather than pre emptively at the pattern stage.

[jruley]

Where does balance happen? It happens in the vertical distances between the neck point and the front and back chest line. When their relation  corresponds with the individual body the coat is in balance.

This idea seems to be peculiar to the German systems.  English language sources talk about "balance" in a more general sense.  The corrections for balance problems in English sources I've seen assume the garment has already been cut out, so you are shifting seams and working with inlays.  Only the German systems seem to track the problem to its source.

[Gerry]

I think most English/British drafting texts never mention this, you are given a myriad of drafts, but no fitting information or information about taking or applying specific balance measures,  whereas in the German texts I have, it is explained clearly.
If specific measurements for balance are required like *strap* they use a device or a measurement that has a nebulous end point.
It makes me think the British systems prefer to fix the essentials of fit on the body rather than pre emptively at the pattern stage.

I'd agree with you Terri, many British tailors are just concerned with getting up-and-running, the draft being merely a starting point. Their skill is in the fittings.

Not unique to British systems, many old tailoring books were pretty scant when it came to fitting advice. The books were written for the trade, so it was assumed that either instruction on such matters would be given to an apprentice by their master, or that the reader was already experienced in tailoring and fitting, and merely interested in the drafts outlined.

Having said that, there was often an apprentice section in the old Tailor and Cutter magazines that would address balance and all the other problems of fit.

Edit: guilds would also organise lectures for apprentices and intermediate tailors, where issues of fit were addressed.

[Gerry]

This idea seems to be peculiar to the German systems.  English language sources talk about "balance" in a more general sense.  The corrections for balance problems in English sources I've seen assume the garment has already been cut out, so you are shifting seams and working with inlays.  Only the German systems seem to track the problem to its source.

Tailors around the world were, and are, aware of balance. It wasn't often discussed in literature for the reasons given in my last post. As you point out, there are different types of balance. The one addressed here is often termed 'vertical' balance; and I assure you that all British tailors are aware of how to fix the problem (though they might have their individual ways of doing it). 

As for tackling the problem at source, good luck with that. Unlike many in the UK, I rely more on direct measurements. Measurements that, in theory, should address all balance issues. It's seldom the case though. NO system can account for all the nuances of an individual's figure. Which is why we have fittings in the first place.

[jruley]

As for tackling the problem at source, good luck with that. Unlike many in the UK, I rely more on direct measurements. Measurements that, in theory, should address all balance issues. It's seldom the case though. NO system can account for all the nuances of an individual's figure. Which is why we have fittings in the first place.

What I mean by "the source" is the German approach tells you exactly where to make a correction to the pattern.  Of course figures are too variable to reduce this to a couple of measurements, and the coat's chest may be built up to varying degrees.

[jruley]

I would be glad when a nativ speaker would post more common English terms regarding this topic if there are any. Probably they are more easily to understand.

Well, since our English members seem rather adamant that there's only one balance, might I humbly suggest "upper chest length" and "upper back length"? 

Just popped into my head, now everyone can tell me why it's wrong

[Gerry]

What I mean by "the source" is the German approach tells you exactly where to make a correction to the pattern.  Of course figures are too variable to reduce this to a couple of measurements, and the coat's chest may be built up to varying degrees.

It's not the 'German approach'. What you're highlighting is that a well know drafting system, that happens to be German, has published the pattern alteration needed to cope with balance. Please don't for one moment assume that this alteration, or knowledge, is unique to German tailors, simply because it isn't in other literature (see my previous post).

If you ever see experienced, British cutters at work, they will routinely add/subtract length as they draft, or work to cloth, based on experience. Likewise tailors of other nationality. Tackling things 'at source' is nothing new.

[Gerry]

Well, since our English members seem rather adamant that there's only one balance, might I humbly suggest "upper chest length" and "upper back length"? 

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I state quite categorically that there's more than one type of balance. What is being discussed here is generally referred to as 'vertical balance' (as I also mentioned). There's already a term for it:

https://youtu.be/3aL1WtblFqg?si=awm6vYrByZgWKbTX&t=1704