rock of eye

[vaibhavkhurana]

Hello Greger and Gerry,

okay so adding fullness to front pitch and back pitch lets say for example 1 inch both sides, Then angling the canvas by 3-4 inches, and do you suspect the horsehair has also has to angled  the same as the body canvas ? Also following that to emphasis the chest with the fullness added apart from copying the front dart to the body canvas do you think there's another dart to be added to the construction to the canvas ? perhaps the shoulder dart to accommodate the collarbone ?

Another question, Should the shoulder dart on canvas probably not added because it could crooked the canvas if you cut a straight ? But i guess you cant add to armhole either ? so A hammer dart perhaps ?  Thoughts ?

[Gerry]

As I've stated elsewhere on this forum, I'm not a professional coat-maker (I'm still finding my way), so I don't have direct experience of the drape cut. However, there's a whole load of stuff about it in this blog (keep scrolling down, there are multiple posts on the subject):

https://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/search/label/drape

One post details the canvas arrangement of an A&S coat, with photos that will answer some of your questions. I know that Tom Mahon has said that the chest canvas is cut back from the break-line a little, in order to allow the lapel to roll (if that's what you're after).

[Greger]

 Gerry, some tailors made/make formless lounge coats. There were other themes for coats. Some tailors really shine at creating these themes. There are always some tailors that are bland. Some customers of tailors want bland. Michael Caine the famous English actor did not like fabulous art work of the iron with his tailor made coats. I was not impressed when I heard him say that. But, to each their own. The swell chest method, instead of drape, is nicer looking I think. Tailors have for hundreds of years used methods to fill out the chest for some men. The "sunken chest" is a description for for shoulders rolled forward, head forward, rounded back, terrible posture needs filling in the chest to poof it out. A manipulated crooked cut. A bland look is a straighter cut for sunken chest. Even a drape cut needs help for the sunken chest. A way to change this posture is lifting weights developing certain muscles. Once they develop these muscles some they find uses for them.

[Gerry]

The swell chest method, instead of drape, is nicer looking I think. Tailors have for hundreds of years used methods to fill out the chest for some men.

Greger, by 'Swell Chest' do you mean offsetting/crookening the neck-point of the front pattern when drafting? In my mind, I can see this creating a swelled pocket over the chest when the shoulder is finally 'pulled' into position. Or am I on the wrong track?

I've always cut my armholes like those shown in drape drafts. I only have a vague understanding of why shoulders are normally (at least in historical drafts) offset, giving the armhole a scooped look at the base of the front. Anyone?

Continuing the discussion on formless coats, I remember reading somewhere that the early sack/lounge coats where deliberately made crooked, so that the fronts swung open. Only the top button was done up. This showed off the waistcoat (which was often odd and highly contrasting). Example here:

https://www.bucco.us/scotlandss-lounge-suits/

Probably for this reason, lounge coats were very blocky. They didn't require shape because they weren't meant to be figure hugging. If one googles '1860s Lounge Coat', historical examples (even on the rare occasion when they have darts) are certainly fairly shapeless/rectangular. That's also my experience when I've encountered examples in museum exhibitions.

[Hendrick]

In historic frac cutting, the shoulder seams of fronts of day coats were cut horizontal and straight to the grain of the fabric, then draped over the shoulder to  position the shoulder seam of the back part. The shoulder seam of the back part obviously was near diagonal and easier to form and manipulate to follow the shoulder blades. This, by the way, is school stuff, obviously Terry knows everything about this subject...

Most structured coats will sway sideways when open; the line from high shoulder point to the bottom center front of the coat will want to go, perpendicular straight down, caused by gravity.


Cheers, Hendrick

[Gerry]

Hendrick, I remember Terri explaining that in a previous post. It's not what I meant though (my fault I should have been more explicit).

What I was trying to say is when the neck point is taken out away from the center front by a small amount. Which seems to be the norm in most coat drafts.

Whenever I've replicated this with a bit of paper it seems to form a pocket over the chest when the shoulder is dragged over into position. I'm guessing that's why it's done? To swell the chest? I've always cut the shoulder and armscye as shown in Drape cut patterns, so I'm not entirely clear on why the other arrangement is done.

[Hendrick]

Hendrick, I remember Terri explaining that in a previous post. It's not what I meant though (my fault I should have been more explicit).

What I was trying to say is when the neck point is taken out away from the center front by a small amount. Which seems to be the norm in most coat drafts.

Whenever I've replicated this with a bit of paper it seems to form a pocket over the chest when the shoulder is dragged over into position. I'm guessing that's why it's done? To swell the chest? I've always cut the shoulder and armscye as shown in Drape cut patterns, so I'm not entirely clear on why the other arrangement is done.

That, together with a downward dart onder the lapel gives "hold" towards the center chest at the lapelbreak and gives a fuller look to the chest. This points to vaibhavkhurana's question about the form of the armhole. Immagine you construct a toile like this, now fold in excess fabric from chest point toward forearm point; the front armhole will deform like he describes...

Cheers, Hendrick

[Gerry]

A discussion of Rock of Eye on the old forum:

Rock of Eye