rock of eye

[vaibhavkhurana]

Found a few tailoring videos where they draft patterns freehand with chalk and a measure tape.
Is there any pages or books that explain how it works and how they calculate balance?

Seems like a very interesting topic.

[Gerry]

Rock-of-eye indicates years of experience and understanding ... hopefully! (mostly it does). After cutting the same patterns day-in-day-out, and seeing the effects of alterations to patterns during fittings, tailors intuitively know the shape(s) they're after. Not something that can be taught IMO.

Admire it when done well, roll your eyes when it isn't.

[vaibhavkhurana]

Hello Garry,

Very well put.

Found myself watching alot of steven hitchcock's instagram videos and was absolutely amazed.

[Gerry]

You're probably aware of these, but Tom Mahon demonstrates rock of eye in the following.

5:44 mark:

47:40 mark

You can see that he's measuring and marking key points, it's just that he draws the lines by hand rather than using curving implements and rulers.

The nearest I get to rock of eye is with sleeve heads. I bend a flexible ruler until it looks right and has the required length, then draw along its edge. I do the front and back separately - these rulers tend to have a limit to their flexibility, so doing things in one is pushing it. It's as good a method as any IMO: sleeve drafts are pretty daft when you think about them! 

[vaibhavkhurana]

Hey Garry,

Thank you so much for these video links, I understand you've had quite an experience with tailoring. I'm barely months into it and i might be totally off with my information but i hope you can shed some light on this.

Both Steven Hitchcock and Thomas Mahon have spend their careers in Andersson and Shepherd because i see some real similarities in their cutting style.

You known really small Back armhole and single piece front mostly and occasionally side panel and front are cut separately.

So my question in continuation is What do you guess is the system they follow ? And how does one differentiate between when to but a single piece front over side panel and front separately.

[Gerry]

So my question in continuation is What do you guess is the system they follow ? And how does one differentiate between when to but a single piece front over side panel and front separately.

There was a documentary a number of years ago (it's on youtube somewhere) about Savile Row, and loads of the cutters interviewed mentioned 'Thornton' when asked what method they use. Pretty archaic, frankly, but many English tailors use these old systems, based on estimates, simply to get up and running. All of the cutters 'art' is in the fitting and not the drafting so much. At least here in the UK.

I rewatched a bit of this vid and around the 1:03 mark Mahon confirms that it takes a few years of learning the shapes until one can draft using rock-of-eye.

As for side panels, the 'drape brigade' tend to include them if someone has a bit of a tummy, because a donlon wedge can be incorporated into the pocket opening. It's basically a manipulated/shifted dart that prevents the front of the jacket looking like a maternity dress below the tummy, instead curving the fronts to follow the roundness of the belly. Otherwise, they favour three-seamed coats. It's mentioned around the 11:40 mark in this vid (though he refers to it as a 'belly cut'):

Cutters who only make coats with side-panels can use the extra seam to create more of a 'skirt' over the hips. Not my thing, but it can look fantastic on the right person and, according to Mahon, it's essential when cutting for the majority of women (understandably so, because they tend to have wider hips).

I'm not a coat maker, incidentally, though I'm not a total novice either. I'm still finding my way so others might be better at explaining/confirming the above.

[Gerry]

Incidentally, I recently picked up a cheap copy of Hardy Amies' book The Englishman's Suit (recommended) and, reading between the lines, the term drape seems to have come about after the event.

In the Edwardian era, Savile Row became known for creating extra width across the chest and back, for comfort. U.S. tailors followed suit (no pun intended) but a trend grew in the '30s on that side of pond for over-suppressing the waist. This trapped the cloth above, creating an effect that resembled a curtain, tied to one side. Probably for this reason, the cut became known as 'drape'.

To my knowledge, Savile Row has never cut suits like that. Cloth was always allowed to hang naturally. Modern proponents of the cut refer to the extra width mentioned as 'drape', but perhaps it's a misnomer? Surely drape is a vertical hang and not horizontal? Fullness is a better term perhaps?

Either way, the book is really interesting, well written and a quick read. Some of his views may seem a little snobbish/archaic, but a lot of his comments still hold. He had a pretty amazing war record too (there's a youtube doc I keep meaning to watch that goes into his history).

[vaibhavkhurana]

Hi Gerry,

From what i've researched drape cut is what scholte tought Anderson and Shepperd and i think fullness might be scientific name but a stylistic choice and to add pizzaz to it they called it drape ? And i guess there's only so much you can take out from the waist.

Found a copy of the sectional system of cutting by thornton and my god is this complicated, i guess this will take me months and months to decipher and remove and add things for it to be any good for myself.

[Gerry]

I don't think this is the documentary I was thinking of. I'll post another link if I find it, but I have a feeling it's on internet archive, which is down at the moment. However, yet another two, respectable cutters from the Row mention Thornton (31:10 onwards):

[Gerry]

BTW, just find a system that you understand and/or are comfortable with. As mentioned earlier, it's not in the draft, the fitting is what counts.

[Gerry]

About the 20:10 mark onwards, there's a little about rock-of-eye.

[Greger]

One method is if you understand grading a pattern up or down in size. Points of interest wider belly, wider hips or narrower, shoulder slope, chest sunk or jut out, need for a longer or shorter back, shoulder blades, wider or narrower back and front. And the accumulated knowledge beyond this. If the person has a larger chest than average you would pick a size larger for front and a size smaller for the back, from graded. And, vices versa. A lot of this you will be doing anyway. Aim for less and less aids and more off what you see and experience. Be sure to add larger inlays where your guessing may be off. Don't be shy with inlays because cloth is expensive and, you're beginning.

[vaibhavkhurana]

Hello Gregor,

Thank you so much for your input, I really appreciate it.

While we're here this is my question to everyone who's reading this.

The drape cut. From everything thats available online about scholte, A&S, Steven Hitchcock and Redmayne.

Everyone talks about wider crossback, wider front or straighter front neckpoint.

I just find it very hard to believe its really that simple.

If you've made a drape cut what has been your experience?

[Greger]

If I remember correctly Scholte,from the Netherlands, created the drape for "wimpy" men to give a more athletic appearance. I think that is why my grandfather said drape belongs in the center of the chest. Anderson and Shepard put most the slack under the arms. Some drape had extended shoulders. And then, a narrow waist appearance. The English said that Americans prostituted the drape. Between Scholte and Anderson and Shepherd the purpose/theme changed. Americans made it more like the wild west- lets have wild fun. Lots of features to brag about among tailors and customers. I tend to think of style as generally business, and fashions as fun. When I was a boy there were fashion suits where 30-40 year old (young) men would sneak into work with a fashion suit and get caught and sent home to change into a business suit. How many suit wearers today know that a suit can be fashion? The hippie generation didn't pass along the "rules of the road".
The purpose of the cut isn't always about that. It is about distributing the cloth to meet the qualifications of the real purpose. In this case some form of drape. Since we don't live in the past we can't make for all of those reasons. We don't know all the old reasons. And even they invented new reasons. They often selected reasons and added new reasons. When not enough new reasons kept it going drap fell to the wayside as all the garments of the past did. The door is still open for new and old ideas whatever styles, fashion and other purposes. You might come up with a new idea unaware that it was already done. With proper inlays the imagination has opportunity to create. This is one of the reasons why tailoring is an art. There is a diagram and directions from Tailor and Cutter on the internet that would be a good place to start with. It shows how to adjust a regular pattern into a draped theme.
Other matters are construction methods. What angle you placed the canvas matters. The other canvass are cut and placed accordingly to the purposes of the kind of drape you are making. This can be rather inventive. The body you are making for may need extra canvas, felt and/or wadding to get the main cloth to fall about the body correctly. Correctly is whatever you or the wearer considers looks and moves best.
Some of the old tailors would only hand sew everything. No machines doing any sewing. Sometimes every hand stitch has thought. Even how loose. A machine stitch is a dead stitch.
Don't be overwhelmed by accumulation. Some knowledge goes on the back burner and is added in later garments. In the end it is about enjoyment, which can be, best dressed.

[Gerry]

I agree with Greger, the term 'drape' has meant different things at different times.

As I mentioned earlier, I personally think the term is a misnomer. If you think about it, every aspect of the cut was designed for comfort (what some call 'soft' tailoring'). From the angling of the canvas to the extra fullness in the sleeves, chest and upper back, the purpose was a relaxed feel to the coat.

The idea was to get away from the more structured, arguably more restrictive feel of formal wear, yet create a lounge coat that was less boxy than had previously been around. Which is partly why the chest was expanded - it created a V-shape silhouette. As Greger mentioned, in the case of slight men this gave the illusion of a chest when there was none. For those with a chest, it was more flattering than the formless lounge coats of previous generations.