Müller trouser draft and toile

[Greger]

Have you added inlay, incase your body is shaped somewhat different? For example. The seat circumference measurements on the pattern is average. But your hips are narrower, and larger buttocks? Or, the other way around?  Inlays give allowance for fine tuning adjustments. Inlays you don't want after the fitting can be easily trimmed away.

[Trouser Snake]

Yes, I do have inlay. I left 2 cm seam allowance on the legs, 3 cm at the waist band, 5 cm on the hem, 4 cm on the centre back seam tapering to 1.5 cm in the fork, and 1.5 cm centre front.

I have sewn the toile. This version is the Müller Skinny Fit with 1/4 HG on the front; so I did not draft the 1/4 HG - 1 cm recommended. I then took a centimeter from the back making it 1/4 HG + 1.5 cm, rather than + 2.5 cm.

The fronts now have more room across the hip line which feels a lot better. The waist band also looks better than my previous efforts. I am sure there is room for improvement though! Perhaps pulling the backs up at the waist line to eliminate the creases under the buttocks? I look forward to your comments. Thanks.

[Gerry]

Some very minor issues, but the best results yet.

There's still a little tightness across the front by the look of things. Possibly because you decreased ease across the seat at the same time as increasing it across the fronts (what the Lord giveth etc). The tops of the side seams appear to be curving back a little, suggesting this is the case?

With such little ease across the back, it's possible that you're always going to trap cloth under the seat, so I'm not sure that pulling the backs up will help. I'll defer to others though. Although I have experience of cutting narrow leg trousers, I've always allowed sufficient ease across the seat for cloth to drape down the leg naturally. I've never made trousers this snug.

Were your Adam trousers this tight? If so, how was the CB seam sewn? You're probably going to need to reinforce it (double lapped seam) if things are tight sitting.

[Gerry]

PS if the inlay figures you gave include your seam allowance, then things are a little skinny on the leg seams, CF and CB at the fork. Not much scope for adjustment.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks for the feedback Gerry. No, the Adam trousers were not as tight. I had given up on replicating them and went back to the Müller Skinny Fit block.

It sounds like you think I need to increase the ease in the seat in the back of the trousers. I have knocked off a centimeter each leg at the back. Perhaps that extra 2 cm is what I might need.

I might not be using the correct terminology. I have left 2 cm around the inseam and the outer leg on both the fronts and the backs. Perhaps this is not much to mess around with? What about the knee width and the cuff? Is that too narrow for your liking? I am thinking it might need an extra centimeter or two.

Here are the measurements I have used on this toile:

Waist Band Girth      90 cm
Hip Girth             100 cm
Hem                    38 cm
Knee Width               44 cm
Side Length              99 cm
Inseam                   79 cm
Body Rise                20 cm
Knee Height            45.4 cm
Front Trouser Width      25 cm    (previously 24 cm)
Back Trouser Width     26.5 cm    (previously 27.5 cm)
Front Crotch Width        6 cm
Back Crotch Width        15 cm

[Gerry]

It sounds like you think I need to increase the ease in the seat in the back of the trousers. I have knocked off a centimeter each leg at the back. Perhaps that extra 2 cm is what I might need.

If your inlay will allow it, then give it a go (it's all experience). If nothing much changes, or the alteration looks worse, try peterle's suggestion of creating a little ease around the waist and gathering it into the band (I think that's what was suggested).

I have left 2 cm around the inseam and the outer leg on both the fronts and the backs. Perhaps this is not much to mess around with?

That's around 3/4 inch. Assuming a seam allowance of 3/8ths, you're only left with 3/8ths (about a cm) of inlay. Not much play, is there. You're ploughing through calico. A more generous inlay would have saved you some time and money.

What about the knee width and the cuff? Is that too narrow for your liking? I am thinking it might need an extra centimeter or two.

Your hem is around 15 inches and the knee width a tiny bit under 17.5 inches. Which is pretty standard for this type of cut. The creases seem to be running nicely over your knee caps, so if you're happy with the look and don't mind slight tightness at the knee when you sit, don't worry.

I used to cut my trousers with the same knee measurement, but in my case the creases are pulled towards the inseam for the reasons I gave earlier. Although I'm still slim (and proudly so!), I'm a six footer and my bones are proportionally larger, I guess, so I need a 18.5 inch knee. Everyone is different. It looks like you can get away with it, though you may find that the creases are pulled in a little when you bend the knee. Not a big deal, but would be interested to know if that's the case.

[Trouser Snake]

What I thought I might try this evening is unpicking the current pair (version 6) and using my previous (version 5) trouser back paper pattern, I'll chalk this onto the reduced by 1 cm seat of this trouser back.... then I'll stitch them back up. When I line up the crease lines of the version 5 and 6 pattern backs, I can see how the 1 cm is spread... a little to the centre back seam; a little to the outside leg seam tapering to the knee.

No point cutting another toile just yet, although I do like making them and I get to practice my sewing at the same time.

Perhaps I should try to straighten that back outer seam curve too at the top. Maybe that will stop the pulling of the side seam to the back, and give me a little fabric to ease onto the waistband as peterle suggested?

[peterle]

To get tight trousers fit well is not easy and needs some ironwork. You can't pull the length under the butt up, this will not work. This area is concave and when you want the fabric to follow you have to form it.
I would do the following: rise the knee marks on the toile of the undersides about 1or 1,5cm. Try to stretch the sideseam and inseam of the undersides with the iron from about 10cm above the knee to the crotch line. Just the edges. Give also the butt seam a good stretch at the curve.
Resew the toile: Make sure the new knee marks meet the front knee marks. 10cm above and below the knee marks join the parts flush. Ease in the fronts above the knee, ease in the undersides below the knee(at calve hight) . Hem lines and crotchlines have to match also.

[Hendrick]

Hi, sorry to interrupt this wonderful discourse...
I agree with Peterle, to me the hip curve on the back part looks a little unnatural as well. Generally I thing that the back part of your trouser has too little diameter and the darts look as if they are positioned too far to the sides. Personally, I wouldn't do another toile but pair the legs (one into the other) and stretch out the diameter on the ironing board then try them on again; you may be surprised. Your centerback may come up a bit and the trouser could lack width at the back waist that would be compensated by straightening the hipcurve of the back part. Like Gerry said, with such a tight hip circumference, your seat will always push down the back basin of the pant a bit. Be ware that fiddling with center back form (pulling it up) also changes the balance of the pant; they may start "sticking" at your front thighs...
But generally, these look far better than anything before!

Cheers, Hendrick

[Trouser Snake]

I have added the 1 cm to the hip girth in the back trouser pattern. I removed the entire back trouser sections and waist band when I made the alteration. I ironed the leg pieces and chalked onto them using my previous back draft which had the added 2.5 cm to the hip girth. There is a tiny bit of extra measurement of about 5 mm on the centre backs and the side seams of each piece. This tapers toward the knee. Also on the inner leg backs there is now about 5 mm extra. I have a bit more room in the seat and they are more comfortable to sit down in. They do feel a little baggy though.

I have not done any further adjustments. I have a list of other things to try:The iron work and knee height suggested by peterle. And straightening the hip curve suggested by Hendrick. Oh, and moving the darts towards the centre.

Here are some current photographs for your consideration. Thank you all for the ongoing help.

[Trouser Snake]

Just comparing the current adjustment with the previous, I actually think I have made it worse. The was an issue with the hip seam pulling to the back. I might have remedied that with a straightening on the curve where it reaches the waist band, as in those Adam on London pair. Maybe I should have held off on the adjustment and waited until I read the iron work advice of peterle's? I guess it is all experience. I like making toiles. I do hope I am three toiles away from a real pair of trousers though...

[Gerry]

Calico being what it is, it's difficult to know it those stress lines across the front are 'historic' and embedded in the cloth, or actual tightness. I have a feeling it's still the latter, but giving the fronts a press would help determine this.

They might seem a little stodgy at the back, but don't forget that actual cloth will have drape, whereas calico doesn't; so they're probably not as bad as you think. Having said that, the extra ease at the back would look more natural with a slightly wider leg/less severe taper (the drape would fall better).

[peterle]

I think like Gerry. It's not bad.
Much more relaxed, no stress folds anymore. Don't forget there will be pockets that also consume a bit of width.
Try the shifting knee marks, it will help to get rid of the unwanted length under the butt.(wich are probably caused by a slight forward hip posture. Posaune already assumed)

Thinking about your hip girth:  hip girth is distributed very individually. Your hips are quite flat at the sides and your gluteus is well deviloped towards the back and a bit concave towards the side. That's usually demanding a larger crotch diameter. (your back seam pulls a bit between the buttocks).
As a trouser pattern is a proportional pattern (the crotch diameter is calculated from the hip measurement) the easiest way to get a fitting pattern would be to draw the pattern with an enlarged hip measurement and finally reduce the hip width of the finished pattern at the side seam. I know. A bit late. Sorry.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks Gerry and peterle. It's not too late. I bought another 4 meters of calico today so I can cut another three trousers this week!

What I might try do is draft another pattern onto paper with the enlarged hip measurement. Currently I have a seat measurement of 100 cm. What would you suggest would be a suitable size to go up to? Would an extra 2 cm be enough.... 102 cm? A 1/4 of the Hip Girth is then 25.5 cm. Fronts would be 25.5 cm and the backs would be 25.5 + 2.5 cm if I go by the book.

Some calculations based on this assumption of 102 cm Hip Girth:

Total Crotch Width is 1/4 HG - 4 cm = 21.5 cm.
Front Trouser Crotch Width is 1/10 of 1/2 HG +1 cm = 5.1 cm + 1 cm = 6.1 cm.
Back Trouser Crotch Width is TCW - FTCW = 15.4 cm

This would give me 0.4 cm more on the back crotch and 0.1 cm more on the front crotch width.

What are your thoughts about this? I'm ready to draft and cut another toile. Should I be increasing the knee width and the hem slightly while I am at it?

[Gerry]

Thanks Gerry and peterle. It's not too late. I bought another 4 meters of calico today so I can cut another three trousers this week!

There's no need to cut a further three pairs of trousers. One should suffice because with the proper amount of inlay you should be able to make significant amendments without needing to resort to another draft/toile.

Therein lies the problem. Please leave more inlay and get into the habit of working like that. Seriously, you're wasting so much time/money/cloth doing what you're doing.