Leg figuration and pleats

[A hobbyist]

I have used the following draft for a closed-leg trouser but find that this particular leg figuration displaces the crease line so much (pt 1) that a forward-facing pleat comes too close to the CF.

https://www.handcrafttailor.com/_files/ugd/cea53d_c9b2f61bfedc43729b78ee4410486440.pdf



I would like to move the pleat about 1/2" away from CF while using the closed-leg adjustment. How shall I do this?

I suppose I could cut open this crease line 1/2" more than the pleat's width, using the surplus not for the main pleat but for a second pleat closer to the side seam, but this adjustment would add more fullness below the waist to the inside of the leg than is desirable.

Other possible solutions may be found in this thread:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150914024556/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1886

For example, I could use the closed-leg configuration but retain the crutch line point (pt 1B) of the standard leg configuration, thus:




This solves the problem of pleat placement, but the crease line will no longer be in the centre of the leg.

Or perhaps I should use the standard draft but then open a wedge to orient the leg towards the middle of the body, thus:





But this pushes the top of the pattern off grain and causes the waistline to dip considerably towards CF. If the grain is retained above the crutch, then the crease line of the leg will not terminate in the middle of the hem.

Perhaps it is a good practice to avoid adding horizontal wedges if possible so as to preserve the grain. What do you think?

Another website suggests using a wedge but then reorienting the CF in relation to the crease and grainline, like so:

https://surefitdesigns.com/pages/f-2-pants-front-crotch-fit-removing-the-horizontal-fold-under-the-tummy?_pos=23&_sid=afa26cbff&_ss=r




But the waistline is still quite tilted.

Which of these options would a professional tailor use to obtain the preferred placement of the main pleat when using a trouser draft with a closed leg figuration?

[Gerry]

The majority of your links won't open for me, even though I can see the clickable images. For that reason it's difficult to comment on a lot of your post.

Or perhaps I should use the standard draft but then open a wedge to orient the leg towards the middle of the body ... But this pushes the top of the pattern off grain and causes the waistline to dip considerably towards CF.

The waistline won't dip considerably. It may look that way when laying out the cloth, but don't forget that the legs swing inwards with a closed posture. The waistline, however, will remain in its original position. If it helps, imagine the pattern being pivoted at the crotchline until the waist levels out. The legs now swing inwards (which is what you want).

If the grain is retained above the crutch, then the crease line of the leg will not terminate in the middle of the hem.

Perhaps it is a good practice to avoid adding horizontal wedges if possible so as to preserve the grain. What do you think?

I think you meant to say that, were the grain retained above the crotch, the leg/crease-line would run off grain. The leg needs to be on-grain so it's unavoidable that above the crotch things are going to be slightly off (with a wedge adjustment for closed posture). It's not going to be by much, is it. Try a toile, decide for yourself.

Another website suggests using a wedge but then reorienting the CF in relation to the crease and grainline ... But the waistline is still quite tilted.

I didn't check out the link, but again the waistline isn't going to be tilted. That aside, angling the CF is commonly done when cutting trousers without pleats. It straightens out the side seam above the crotch, preventing overly curved hip shaping. It's no big deal doing it, just a question of whether you can. A pleat allowance may mean that the side seam is relatively straight as things stand. Angling the CF/fly-line might take the waist past/outside the side seam (you need to have at least some curvature inwards). Though this would only be a problem with lower rise trousers, I should imagine.

[peterle]

I personally would choose the method wich generates the better fit. IE I would choose the wedge method when I think I need (also) a longer side seam. 

Otherwise I would choose the hem line shiftig only method. I would then just elongate the now new grainline above the crotch line. For me it's important that grainline an fold line match, even more important in patterned fabrics.

[A hobbyist]

I didn't check out the link, but again the waistline isn't going to be tilted. That aside, angling the CF is commonly done when cutting trousers without pleats. It straightens out the side seam above the crotch, preventing overly curved hip shaping. It's no big deal doing it, just a question of whether you can. A pleat allowance may mean that the side seam is relatively straight as things stand. Angling the CF/fly-line might take the waist past/outside the side seam (you need to have at least some curvature inwards). Though this would only be a problem with lower rise trousers, I should imagine.

Thanks for your comments, Gerry. Do you have a preferred way of adding pleats so as to achieve the shape of side seam you want? That is, do you retain the hip curve or extend the waistline outwards and then connect it to the knee in a more or less straight line?

Here are photos showing the difference:









Most pleated bespoke trousers I've seen online seem to lie flat on the hips. 

I usually make the main pleat by slashing and opening the pattern but I wonder whether you think a second pleat should be made similarly or by extending the waistline.

[A hobbyist]

I didn't check out the link, but again the waistline isn't going to be tilted. That aside, angling the CF is commonly done when cutting trousers without pleats. It straightens out the side seam above the crotch, preventing overly curved hip shaping. It's no big deal doing it, just a question of whether you can. A pleat allowance may mean that the side seam is relatively straight as things stand. Angling the CF/fly-line might take the waist past/outside the side seam (you need to have at least some curvature inwards). Though this would only be a problem with lower rise trousers, I should imagine.
[/quote]

Thanks for your comments, Gerry. Do you have a preferred way of adding pleats so as to achieve the shape of side seam you want? That is, do you retain the hip curve or extend the waistline outwards and then connect it to the knee in a more or less straight line?

Here are photos showing the difference:













Most pleated bespoke trousers I've seen online seem to lie flat on the hips. 

I usually make the main pleat by slashing and opening the pattern but I wonder whether you think a second pleat should be made similarly or by extending the waistline.

[A hobbyist]

I personally would choose the method wich generates the better fit. IE I would choose the wedge method when I think I need (also) a longer side seam. 

Otherwise I would choose the hem line shiftig only method. I would then just elongate the now new grainline above the crotch line. For me it's important that grainline an fold line match, even more important in patterned fabrics.

Thank you for your comment. The closed leg configuration of the draft I used displaces the hem but does not add much length. Yet it seems to work in my case. What do you think of the new grain line I have added in this photo? I.e. the dash line which extends from the hem (closed position) to the point on the waistline where I want the main pleat to be. This would be for forward pleats.

[peterle]

I need some infos:
With Forward pleat you mean it will open towards the CF?
Did the draft yet incorporate the surplus material for the fold? (I prefer to draw a plain Front pattern and incorporate the fold by slash and pivot)
Do you want to iron in a knife pleat all down to the hem or just a few cm at the top?

[A hobbyist]

I need some infos:
With Forward pleat you mean it will open towards the CF?
Did the draft yet incorporate the surplus material for the fold? (I prefer to draw a plain Front pattern and incorporate the fold by slash and pivot)
Do you want to iron in a knife pleat all down to the hem or just a few cm at the top?

This is a flat front pattern.

The dashed line is the new grainline with the correct position for the main pleat at the waistline. I would create this pleat by opening a wedge along this line from waist to hem.

This pleat would open towards the centre front and would be creased from waist to hem.

[Gerry]

Thanks for your comments, Gerry. Do you have a preferred way of adding pleats so as to achieve the shape of side seam you want? That is, do you retain the hip curve or extend the waistline outwards and then connect it to the knee in a more or less straight line?

Ideally, the side seam along the hips would not be a straight line. A subtle curvature into the waist is my preference. If the line is overly curved the hips look too rounded; and most men's hips are relatively straight so this looks truly dreadful.

This is why angling the fly line towards the side seam (no more than half an inch IMO) helps when no pleats are included. As you've demonstrated visually in the links that you posted, when pleats are factored in the sides end up fairly straight anyway, so angling of the fly is less necessary and can even be problematic with pleats. You'll have to test a draft to see what the best approach is.

If you create a wedge for closed posture, then ideally the fly line would be angled such that it's parallel with the new crease line. That's going to help keep things on grain above the crotch line. The waist would then be taken out by a corresponding amount so that it isn't shortened and the side seam re-drawn. Assuming pleats were factored in to the draft, then you might find that the aforementioned procedure takes the side seam out to such an extent that there's no curvature whatsoever into the waist; or even that the waist is further out at the sides than the seat.

In either case, it might be better to take out the pleats, shape the side seam for a subtle curve then pivot the pattern at the knee to add in a pleat. Though this is going to dip the fly line again, so further adjustment would be necessary. An easy solution (though a compromise) would be to either take out a pleat if two are included, or make the single pleat narrower.

Not easy is it. There's not one method that covers all situations. It's a suck-it-and-see approach.

[A hobbyist]

Thanks for your comments, Gerry. Do you have a preferred way of adding pleats so as to achieve the shape of side seam you want? That is, do you retain the hip curve or extend the waistline outwards and then connect it to the knee in a more or less straight line?

Ideally, the side seam along the hips would not be a straight line. A subtle curvature into the waist is my preference. If the line is overly curved the hips look too rounded; and most men's hips are relatively straight so this looks truly dreadful.

This is why angling the fly line towards the side seam (no more than half an inch IMO) helps when no pleats are included. As you've demonstrated visually in the links that you posted, when pleats are factored in the sides end up fairly straight anyway, so angling of the fly is less necessary and can even be problematic with pleats. You'll have to test a draft to see what the best approach is.

If you create a wedge for closed posture, then ideally the fly line would be angled such that it's parallel with the new crease line. That's going to help keep things on grain above the crotch line. The waist would then be taken out by a corresponding amount so that it isn't shortened and the side seam re-drawn. Assuming pleats were factored in to the draft, then you might find that the aforementioned procedure takes the side seam out to such an extent that there's no curvature whatsoever into the waist; or even that the waist is further out at the sides than the seat.

In either case, it might be better to take out the pleats, shape the side seam for a subtle curve then pivot the pattern at the knee to add in a pleat. Though this is going to dip the fly line again, so further adjustment would be necessary. An easy solution (though a compromise) would be to either take out a pleat if two are included, or make the single pleat narrower.

Not easy is it. There's not one method that covers all situations. It's a suck-it-and-see approach.

The flat front draft, which I would modify for double pleats, indicates a 1cm curve from hip to waist. Would that be your preference? Here is a video of a Savile Row tailor drafting pleated fronts by extending the waistline:

I wonder if perhaps some think that pleats should be drafted with a flat side seam because they think it helps the pleats to lie flat. But perhaps that has not been your experience. Perhaps it is a matter of style.

[A hobbyist]

In either case, it might be better to take out the pleats, shape the side seam for a subtle curve then pivot the pattern at the knee to add in a pleat. Though this is going to dip the fly line again, so further adjustment would be necessary. An easy solution (though a compromise) would be to either take out a pleat if two are included, or make the single pleat narrower.

To clarify, why would the CF dip after the side seam is shaped and the pattern pivoted? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I were to slash and pivot the outside part of the flat front pattern to create a second pleat, thereby retaining the curvature of the side seam, wouldn't the CF retain its original inclination?

[Gerry]

The flat front draft, which I would modify for double pleats, indicates a 1cm curve from hip to waist. Would that be your preference? Here is a video of a Savile Row tailor drafting pleated fronts by extending the waistline:

Trousers without pleats tend to be lower rise and there's less of a drop between the waistline and seat, but 1cm/three eights would be a good guideline. If the drop is is any less - a totally straight, or 'outward bound' line - then the trousers will slip off the hips, visually and literally (especially with a straight waistband).

Mostly, there's more of a drop between the higher waist of pleated trousers and the seat; but as you'll be aware the pleats fill out cloth at the waistline so once again, the side is relatively straight. Obviously the waist reduces in circumference when the pleats are made up, so the sides slipping down the hips isn't such an issue as it is with lower rise.

IMO, it's an aesthetic thing. Slight curvature just looks right (though if excessive looks bad).

[Gerry]

To clarify, why would the CF dip after the side seam is shaped and the pattern pivoted? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I were to slash and pivot the outside part of the flat front pattern to create a second pleat, thereby retaining the curvature of the side seam, wouldn't the CF retain its original inclination?

It depends how you pivot. I was thinking of a single, forward pleat as demonstrated here:

https://youtu.be/FgUqwk06DOA?si=oE2EWRNmovGvg08p&t=81

If you freeze the vid at the point linked to, you'll note that the original fly line was angled back slightly. With the pleat incorporated, it's now straighter. Were the fly line straight to begin with, then an adjustment would need to be made because it would dip/angle inwards after the pivoting.

You're obviously talking about pivoting in the other direction, possibly for backwards facing pleats? (may God have mercy on your soul). In which case you're correct, the CF wouldn't be affected. I've never done that, but to me it would make more sense to pivot from the hem in that instance. If pivoting outwards from the knee, there would be danger of drape being trapped at the knee, creating a jodhpurs effect. Again, suck it and see.

[Greger]

The first picture of this thread looks like a dart instead of a pleat.
Some pleated trousers hang from suspenders (braces). High waisted trousers give the appearance of longer legs. With a buttoned coat where the hem,  waistline and pockets adjusted dimensionally it gives a splendid look. Formulas are not always effective because of width of shoulders, size of chest, sleeve length, etc. Takes some thoughts to get it best by eye.
Pleats without a coat. Using a belt to hold the trousers up there are some other considerations.
Art of the day has present day cultural considerations to be infused into the final appearance, unless you want some other ideas. After all, someone starts a new trend, and others sometimes develop it further. In the past it was the wealthy and tailors who started new fashions and styles. Today, some people with marketing skills, might win the day and walk off with a fortune.

[Greger]

This lead has something about making English pleated trouser.
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,76.0.html