1930's mens work blouse - sleeve & armhole issues?

[TTailor]

"The sleeves are regular jacket sleeves, except the base/bottom/(cap height?) is short and wide and the under sleeve is long at the top"

I would take that to mean that the total depth of crown used for this garment is less deep and the line D-F is shallow because there is no shoulder pad and it allows the back seam to be slightly longer giving a bit more length there and less tension to move the arms forward

I can say that period sleeves of this type do not hang like a modern sleeve and the body underarm curve and the sleeve itself will not have matching curves. When hanging on a stand, the elbows will slightly turn outwards, because the underarm isn't as scooped out and clean like a modern draft.

if you look at period sleeves from the 1600's onwards most of them have very high undersleeve shapes and are not at all shaped to "match" the shape of the armhole they are put in.

if you draft the sleeve shown as is, do you get a sleeve circumference including the seam allowance or a  nett value equal to teh armhole sewing  line plus ease?

[Lieckio]

Thats just to give you a lateral point between U and E

At one point I assumed that the point 7 might be 1 cm below the chest line as well, as that's pretty much exactly where the drawn back curve ends up in, but it might just be a coincidence of the way they've drafted the armhole.

As for the side seams themselves, they need to be the same length for sewing and in the diagram the front point 7 looks like it might be slightly longer as it seems to be drawn up to the chest line.
It is possible that the front side seam is longer on purpose and it is eased to the back side seam to provide a bit more chest shaping. I have seen it mentioned in other old texts. Does it provide much shaping, who knows? 
Since there is waist suppression in the side seam, the drawn curves of the armhole just need to flow nicely when you place the side seams together as they will be sewn. On paper I would just place them together and check that the armhole run is drawn  nicely, coming down below the chest line as described in the text and curving in front of line M-E and above point Y. They don't tell you exactly where the armhole line crosses the vertical guideline because they just expect you will know how to draw a good shape.

This might actually make some sense. From the original pieces I've been comparing it seems as if the backpiece side seam is quite curved and longer than the fron side seam, which is pretty much straight.

Though now that I compare them, it seems they could be either matched with the side seams with the pleat allowance included, or without it... I might try and match the final seam to the armhole in my next toile just to see if that makes more sense. But I don't think the armhole curve here is really an issue, nor the side seam. From the tests I made last week, it seems that it will sit quite nicely either way in the end. Regardless to which line I've matched it to.

I would take that to mean that the total depth of crown used for this garment is less deep and the line D-F is shallow because there is no shoulder pad and it allows the back seam to be slightly longer giving a bit more length there and less tension to move the arms forward

I can say that period sleeves of this type do not hang like a modern sleeve and the body underarm curve and the sleeve itself will not have matching curves. When hanging on a stand, the elbows will slightly turn outwards, because the underarm isn't as scooped out and clean like a modern draft.

if you look at period sleeves from the 1600's onwards most of them have very high undersleeve shapes and are not at all shaped to "match" the shape of the armhole they are put in.

Ah, that too make sense now that you said it! Undersleeve being long at the top might indeed match to the D-F line being shorter as well, the reasoning you give does make sense for the sleeve purpose.

if you draft the sleeve shown as is, do you get a sleeve circumference including the seam allowance or a  nett value equal to teh armhole sewing  line plus ease?

I drafted this in size 56 now (so I could use my coworker as a mannequin if needed), the armhole in that size is 56,5 cm with seam allowance and 56,4 without seam allowance.

Undersleeve in the armhole is 25,1 cm with seam allowance included, 25,6 cm without. Top sleeve in the armhole 31,4 cm with seam allowance, 30,8 cm without seam allowance.

The drafted sleeve is is exactly 64 cm. If measuring from the point C, the undersleeve is 28,7 cm and if just the undersleeve line without the fold, 25 cm exactly. Top sleeve from point C is 35,4 cm long. If you add the fold, 39 cm.

Without seam allowances the same lenths are 62,1 cm. Undersleeve from C is 28,5 cm and without the fold, 24,8 cm.
Top sleeve from C is 33,6 cm and with the fold, 37,3 cm.

I'll make a drawing to make more sense of these lengths.

[Lieckio]

And here's the measurements. The seam allowance was calculated from the draft, with equal allowances on all sides, so they are just "rough" estimates I'd say.

[TTailor]

I drafted this in size 56 now (so I could use my coworker as a mannequin if needed), the armhole in that size is 56,5 cm with seam allowance and 56,4 without seam allowance.

I'm guessing you are measuring the sewing line in both cases?


In many older drafts there is a seam allowance on the armhole of the body and the sleeve too. Just something to be aware of as it has caused confusion for many interpreters of older drafts.

Sleeves patterns often also have built in seam allowances on the vertical seams so check that too.

That being said, if the sewing line of the armhole is 56 cm, then the sewing line of the sleeves might measure between 60 cm giving 4 cm to ease in.
The undersleeve taking maybe .75 and the rest in the cap area.


Anything more than that will not ease in well, depending on the fabric you use.

If your sleeve drafts out to more, then consider the possibility of  where there may be built in seam allowance in the draft.

[Lieckio]

Maybe my English wasn't quite clear enough!

When I am talking about "without seam allowance", I am talking about the sewing line lengths

The draft gives pretty equal sizes for the armhole on the sewing line and on the edges, only a 1 mm difference. That is, with the side seam and shoulder seams taken into account.

The jacket sleeve draft produces way too much ease in my opinion. The originals have about 1,5 cm allowance on the top sleeve. Lowering the cap height probably would result in this, if I can get the other measurements to work.

[Lieckio]

Well, I feel like such a fool.

The relationship between the A-B and B-D lines is the same as B-D being 3/4 of A -B line. Tested this, made the F-G slightly longer to allow for the undersleeve to be shorter and now all the measurements match, with the undersleeve having a bit over 0,5 cm of ease and the top sleeve about 2 cm of ease, depending on the curve.

This seems to make a nice, smooth curve all the way and with the measurements matching so well... I believe this might be it.

Now I need to wait until Monday to get to make a toile, as I've got all my tools at my workshop.

If this sleeve issue was really this simple all along, I'm going to have to whip myself a little for not realizing it earlier. This solution is way easier than I expected.

[TTailor]

We may be missing each other's point.
I was referring to the length of the draft lines as drawn, which would be the edge of the seam allowance compared with measuring in from the drawn lines which would be measuring the actual seam lines.

Anyway it looks like you are onto solving your issues, good luck.

[Lieckio]

We may be missing each other's point.
I was referring to the length of the draft lines as drawn, which would be the edge of the seam allowance compared with measuring in from the drawn lines which would be measuring the actual seam lines.

Anyway it looks like you are onto solving your issues, good luck.

Ah, I think I understood now 

I believe the lines are the edge of the seam allowance, rather than the sewing line. If I draw a sewing line 0,7 cm to 0,8 cm inside the lines that I get out of the draft, they seem to more or less match with the sewing lines of the body of the blouse.

---

It seems that the jacket sleeve draft in the form it's written would fit a jacket that has a slightly wider and lower armhole 1:1. With the one I am making, I had to move the front balance point 1 cm up on the body and drop the cap height by 3 cm. This produces on paper a sleeve curve that has about 2 cm allowance (or about 6% of the upper sleeve curve), and a bit over 8mm of ease on the under arm.

I am really exited to get to test this, and we'll see how it works! I'll try and snap some photos just to show some results and not just a mad wall of text, in case anyone is ever interested in reading all this and seeing the results.

[Greger]

The garment kinda looks like a military tunic. This one has no roundness for the chest. Some have a dart cut in from the chest. The front sideseam, above the waist, is probably for shaping the chest. This can be adjusted for longer or shorter. Some drafts have extra length in the back part of same area. This can be longer or shorter. Because of the pleats you don't need it. The darts can be wider or narrower.
One book by Clarence Poulen - Tailoring Suits the Professional Way has a simular sleeve. Sleeves are explained several places in the book. No author explains it all. But, some good advice in a number of books.
Another good book, about fitting coats, is Stanley Hostek.
A lot of tailor patterns have seam allowances included. English usually won't include the center back seam allowance. The bottom of the coat and sleeve cuff is not added on many. Because of adjustments. The center back add one inch and, the bottoms add two inches. The add on's are chalked on the cloth. Poulen has advice about chalking patterns on cloth and a diagram.

[Lieckio]

The garment kinda looks like a military tunic. This one has no roundness for the chest. Some have a dart cut in from the chest. The front sideseam, above the waist, is probably for shaping the chest. This can be adjusted for longer or shorter. Some drafts have extra length in the back part of same area. This can be longer or shorter. Because of the pleats you don't need it. The darts can be wider or narrower.
One book by Clarence Poulen - Tailoring Suits the Professional Way has a simular sleeve. Sleeves are explained several places in the book. No author explains it all. But, some good advice in a number of books.
Another good book, about fitting coats, is Stanley Hostek.
A lot of tailor patterns have seam allowances included. English usually won't include the center back seam allowance. The bottom of the coat and sleeve cuff is not added on many. Because of adjustments. The center back add one inch and, the bottoms add two inches. The add on's are chalked on the cloth. Poulen has advice about chalking patterns on cloth and a diagram.

Thanks! I'll take a look at that book.

I managed to finally figure out the side seam so that all the lengths and ease work on it. It turned out to be simpler than I originally thought. I had gotten too hung up on measurements matching, without considering that some of the length is going to disappear as ease and that the sewing seam length can have pretty significant differences to the edge length of the draft, but matches nicely in the end. A beginner mistake I'd say, just something I completely forgot to consider somewhere along the way.

The sleeve I've drafted is now pretty nice; it fits beautifully around the armhole and is super easy to set in.

Few more adjustments need to be made still. It feels a bit tight around the bicep, so I'll need to extend it a little. The elbow is a bit too full and there's some baggyness on the back seam below the elbow. The sleeve also has some tendency to twist a little towards the center front. I think this is partially how I set it in and partially because the sleeve might need a bit more seam allowance in the underarm.

But we'll see after a bit more testing. Overall, I'm pretty happy about all this right now.

[Lieckio]

Well, I found the Poulen's book and the sleeve is indeed very similar, only some minor differences - mainly that the draft in my book is a lot wider.

The interesting thing is that in the Puolen's book the shoulder seam point is almost 3 cm more to towards the back seam and this does make the sleeve sit even nicer in the armhole. Doesn't remove the bicep issue though.

Seems I have a lot more to learn here.