More Trouser Fit Fun

[Bifurcator]

Hi All,
I'm back after trying a lot of different drafts based on recommendations from my other post.  I drafted trousers from:

Aldrich (2 fits)
Hofenbitzer
Jungclaus
Mccun
Mitchell System
MTOC
Muller (2 sizes)
Paulin
Rundschau
Thorton

The closest one to what I'm after is the Muller draft (I added 1 3/4" height to rise).  This is the one featured in the photos.  Now I need to figure out how to manipulate it   If interested I can give my impression on all the other drafts.

I'm wanting a more relaxed style, with ease, but want it to fall nicely and not be baggy. More of a casual fit that's comfortable than a tailored fit. The fabric will be cotton and fairly structured. I think this trial is pretty close. 

The main issues I see:
Issue 1) Seat seam is pulling towards front and going into the buttox area.  I'd like this to sit away from the body at the bottom where it starts going forward.
Issue 2) Wrinkling at and above back of knee.  Ideally I want this to be a straight line down from the seat.

My thoughts are:
1) I may need to add a little to the back fork length at inseam or maybe scoop a little out at the back to reduce amount of fabric.
2) I'm not sure what the fix is, but I think the cause may be my front thigh pushing the pant forward and my calf pushing the pant back.

I'm attaching an outline of my silhouette.  I think my posture is a little "sway back" with my belly pushed forward. Also, I stand with locked knees, pushing my calves back.

Apologies for the photo quality.  Let me know what other info I can give to help.

[Bifurcator]

added pics to original post...

[Bifurcator]

I scooped out the back seat seam a little and straightened it too, which seemed to take out some of the fullness in the back and cleaned the seat up.  I scooped more previous to this, but it created a straight rectangular look in the seat that wasn't very flattering.  Below are the results. I know the seat still needs a little work, but I'm pretty ok with it for now and need to fix the hyperextended knee issue as the pants are still catching on my calf and not letting the pant hang naturally from the seat to hem.  Once I figure that out I need to work on the front as the front rise seems too long.  Wondering if I can just remove length from the top and zero to the side seam without throwing everything out of balance.
For the hyperextended calf I've seen a few different suggestions on fixing.  One being a combination of fulling/stretching/pressing, another being a slash and spread technique to add more room in the calf area and another being to add width at the underside in that area.  I need to do a little more research.








 

[posaune]

 You must round out the front fork (word?). In the back try taking away at inseam a bit. Your left hip is longer than the right release there the waist band - again not much. The center of the legs is not centered. Maybe if you have altered at waist band all is okay. The legs are swinging out. You need to reposition them. For the calves: If you have a wool fabric you can dress with the iron, cotton too - but very limited. But you do this before sewing them together. I would add some fabric at sideseam and inseam in the back pants, starting from kneeline.
This are all minor amounts. Lg Posaune

[peterle]

The first I see is, you didn t match the notches when sewing the seam ( Kneeline, hipline, crotchline) But this is essential when putting the pants together. Otherwise the legs do strange things like kicking out or twisting.

WE can use this effect for the fit: Draw te knee line of the undersides 1,5cm higher and match the new notches with the old front notches when sewing. You have to ease in the topsides above the knee line and the undersides below the knee line. Keep 5cm above and below the knee lines flush. No easing. This will shorten the undersides between crotch and knee and lengthen it over the calves. Thus the pants can follow your leg. It s easier, when you prepare the legs with Ironwork, like Posaune wrote.

Like Posaune wrote, your legs kick outwards. This was'n t the case in the first set of pics, so I think it s caused by your recent alterations. Maybe you didnt sew the waistband properly?

[Bifurcator]

Thank you both for your insights and feedback!

Posaune,
Round out front approximately like below?


Take away back at inseam like below?


Good catch on left hip- it is about 1cm higher than right.
So release (raise) waistband approximately 1cm like below?


The center of legs not centered. Yes, I think maybe this is partly the high hip. I think this may also be due to rushed and bad sewing as I didn't make sure the notches matched.  This was about my 6th draft and most didn't come out good, so I was rushing just to see how the shape looked.  I think maybe I wait to do other changes and sew again more carefully before deciding how much to bring legs closer.  Would the correction look like below?


Yes, I think I will try some stretching and ironwork for the calves issue. I'm using tightly woven cotton fabric though so not sure how much effect I will get.  I also agree that increasing the width of the legs should help. I actually want the legs to be wider, but slightly more tapered, so will experiment with this.  You would only add leg width to back/underside?

[Bifurcator]

Peterle,
Yep, you're right.  I was rushing when sewing and being careless. It was probably #6 of 10 or so drafts and I started rushing through them because so many were useless.  I think this is probably causing some of the leg twisting issues.  I also have a high left hip, about 1cm, which I think also makes the left leg twist towards outside.

I will take the pant apart and resew legs following your suggestions.  I've actually read this in a couple of old tailoring books too, but don't have much experience with ironwork, so hadn't tried it.  The fabric is tightly woven cotton, so not sure how much stretch and manipulation I can get.  I will try it.
This is my understanding:


From P. Thickett book, which I think is same or similar:


I think the difference with the legs kicking out from 1st photo to 2nd may be partly due to me shortening the leg length.  In the first photo they were catching on my foot at the bottom, so probably holding the bottom in place more.  I'm going to start with the corrections we have and hope🤞, I mean pray🙏, they stop trying to fly away from me.
 

[peterle]

Yes, you understand right. Maybe it is enough just to assemble the pants correctly(without rising the back knee marks), because currently your back knee notches are above the front ones.

[Bifurcator]

OK, I'm back with updates...
I made the following changes:
-Rounded out (scooped) front seam
-Decreased seat seam at inseam 1cm (reducing back fork length)
-Added Width to leg, but also decreased hem width for a more tapered shape.
-Resewed Matching Notches

Left Leg Only
-Moved knee line up on underside 1.5cm, matched to top side knee line when sewing and stretched upwards and downwards so crotch point and hem matched.
-Increased leg width on underside and topside
-To simulate adding 1cm to top of left side for high hip I pulled sample down 1cm on left side only

Right Leg
-I kept knee line and only stretched underside from knee up to match topside crotch point.
-I increased leg width on underside only

Photos Below:








My thoughts:
-Scooping/Rounding out the front helped.  It took out the excess that was sitting away from my body. Front looks pretty clean.  It still feels a little low when walking
-With Scooping at the front and the back seam the lower torso area is feeling a little tighter than I'd like.  I'm wondering if I can just add a little width to side side seam at hip and crotch line?  Front and Back or just Back?
approximately like:

-I'm not sure about the reduction of the back fork length.  I think it cleaned up the look, but I do worry about restriction of movement.  I'm going to leave with the reduction for now.
-Adding width to the underside leg helped reduce the pant catching on my calf.  It's still doing it a little, but less than before.  I think adding width to the topside was unneccessary (left leg).  I added about 2.5cm to knee width at underside and reduced hem 1cm total.  I think I will add a little more to the underside leg width as legs are slightly narrower than I'd like.
-Stretching and easing the underside and topside at inseam and side seam, was a little challenging I think due to the tight cotton fabric and the leg length being on the short side.  I like this idea and adding shape, but maybe I will try it moving the knee line up .5-1cm

In General:
-The crease at my back rise, on left side is back.  I'm not sure if this is from me stretching the bottom of the seat seam, or maybe the stretching and easing at the leg as I'm not seeing it on the right side.  For now I'm going to leave it for the next sample.
-The pant isn't catching too much on the calf on the right side.  I'm going to open the underside leg a little more, though I am getting very close to just having a straight line from the underside crotch point to knee, so will need to see.  I also saw a calf adjustment in the Muller pattern book that instructs to add a little fullness at the calf level on the side seam side and also some easing/stretching, so may try this too.
-legs are still sitting open, against my inner ankle at bottom.  I think I will try to close 1cm at knee and hem.  I do worry that I may just have a straight line from the crotch point down, but will see.

Apologies for the long post.

[peterle]

Take the right leg version, it seems enough. With a tight cotton weave you would never get rid of the left leg  ripples anyway.

I think your darts are to long. I also think, the fronts are to tight at the hip/ waist area and the pants stick to the tights. I would shift the material forward by installing the darts at the front instead of the back. That should ease the area a bit.

I also see, that your crotch line rises towards the side seam. It should be horizontal. That s  probably also the reason why the legs swing outwards at the hem. Try to release about 1 to 1.5cm at the side seam when sewing the waistband.

[posaune]

Now: the pattern is a bit tight over the stomach. What I do with forward tilted hips I increase the Front pattern width with 1 cm. That gives you 2 cm more fabric in front.
The left leg falls now nice centered. But not nice at back kneelevel. I would undo the calves alterations. I think only with wool fabric it will work.
The right leg is swinging away. But first try to set it deeper at waist side seam like the left.
With cotton I dress the back seat seam and inseam before I sew the trouser together. With steam I try to straighten the curve. The two layers together so I get the same result.
The fold in the back, I do not know where it origins. Maybe asymmetric cheeks? With the help of your horizontal lines pin it out maybe 1.5 cm. Baste it and try it on. Maybe you can remove half of the amount at sideseam and half at the centerbackseam. But I really do not know.
Lg
Posaune

  Well peterle, same opinion

[Bifurcator]

OK, thanks again for your time and attention

Agree pants were tight in the front, especially from waist to crotch line.  For design/style reasons I'd like to leave the dart in the back, so I'm going to try to increase the front.  I will relook at the dart length too.  I actually want the dart to angle slightly, so going to try this too.

regarding:
"Try to release about 1 to 1.5cm at the side seam when sewing the waistband."
Would this be adding to the top of the side seam like:


Posaune,
Regarding:
"increase the Front pattern width with 1 cm. That gives you 2 cm more fabric in front."
I assume you mean add 1cm to the entire front width at sideseam, so that is what I tried.  With this correction you would shift the centerline over .5cm towards inseam- correct?

"But first try to set it deeper at waist side seam like the left."
Are you saying add a little to the top of the side seam, same as Peterle?


OK, so I made a few corrections before the last two posts.  Below is everything done and below that photos of where I'm at.

Ignore Wearer's Left side, nothing else done to it since it's been stretched out.

WR side Adjustments
-Calf Adjustment per Muller book.  It helped, but made the calf shape "bubble".  I will remove the ( ) shape they suggest at the calf.
-Opened hip width at front and back
-After reading Posaune's comment I increased the front pattern by 1cm at sideseam all the way down, from waist to hem
-Angled dart slight towards CB seam for design reasons, but also to get it closer to the fullest point.
-After reading the comments I pulled the pant down about 1cm at sideseams to see the effect of raising the sideseam 1cm

Thoughts:
Front feels and looks a lot better with extra width.
-I need to straighten the hip area as it's too round, maybe can shave a little off.
-Shifting side seam up helped front hipline lay parallel to floor.  Leg is still swinging out, but not as much. Back leg now is swinging in. Note centerline is not in the correct position as I've increased leg widths. I think I may add the 1cm to top of sideseam and cut another sample. This sample has been so stretched out and may have been a little off grain to begin with.
   -I will also update the pattern with legs .5cm closer from knee down.
-Let shape is a little too curvy and "bubbly" due to calf shape and hip curve.  I'm going to straighten this out as red line.
-I'm good with the back for now.  The fold on right side has gone away for now and pant is no longer getting hung on the calf.

Ignore WL
Before pulling sideseam down:






after pulling sideseam down:





Desired outside shape:


For reference this is the calf adjustment i tried on WR side:

[Bifurcator]

Also I forgot to ask about this:

"With cotton I dress the back seat seam and inseam before I sew the trouser together. With steam I try to straighten the curve. The two layers together so I get the same result."

Would this be pressing the curves with steam and straightening?  What affect does this give?
Thanks!

[peterle]

Stretching the seat seam creates a more than 360 degree surface(saddle surface) when you lay it on a table, there will be a wave in the fabric. This is needed to follow the concave shape of the butt leg area, especially in tight pants.

Hanging the side seam lower didnt really help to get the hem at the right spot. Another strategy: probably the hem is pushed outwards by your calfs. Does the fabric touch the calfs? Thats hard to see in the pics. Probably you are bow legged?

Just making the fronts wider isnt enough. You have to Care that the width gets to the right area. You want the additional fullness over the front tighs. This can only be achieved with a front dart. You dont need it at the back, so I wanted you to move the dart to the front. A dart for styling reasons can be very shallow, so no problem to have them both.

When fitting a new pattern its better to keep the Darts perpenidcular to the seam because this causes the least trouble. When you found the right spot , deepness and length you can manipulate the dart to a different direction for the final pattern.

[posaune]

I attach a pic: black a normal calculated trouser pattern, the red there is 1 cm put into Front pattern width. You see where the surplus is added. Belly and thighs are getting it. You see the length difference at the inseams.
You have to stretch with the iron. You hold the fabric kneelevel inseam und push the iron like shown - only inseam and seat. (Under knee is for wool and shapes for calves
Lg posaune)