What is a small armscye?

[SlipInTime]

I see on all the fitting advice boards and articles you want a small armscye - but how high is high? Having never had something of this quality, I don't have a reference point.

Right now, I'm making a shirt. How much deeper than the literal armpit should the bottom of the armscye be?

Or does anyone have a good draft for a modern, fitted shirt, which computes a small armscye?

Cheers all x

[Gerry]

I've seen a few professional shirt-maker's use the estimate of a 6th of chest (3rd of scale) down from the base of the neck front. It pretty much places the bottom of the armscye on the apex line (apex being a euphemism for nipple).

Some would consider this on the low side, but it's still a lot higher than ready-to-wear. I would also caution that if the armscye is taken too high on a shirt, then you can end up with a tight, restrictive sleeve. The higher the scye, the smaller the armhole circumference; and unlike coat-makers, who have the luxury of being able to shrink wool, there's a limit to how much ease you can put in a cotton sleeve. Unless you want the leg-of-mutton blouse look.  There's also a limit to how high you can take a short-cap sleeve (one way of compensating for a high armscye) before the drag lines at front and back become too prominent/unsightly.

Whatever you use, you'll want to go at least a little below your measured armscye depth, otherwise things will feel restrictive. One cutting book I own recommends between 0.75 and 1 inch below the measured mark. Make toiles, evaluate things and decide for yourself.

Personally, I take things down to the apex line. Anything else feels constraining. Sleeves can always be made a little longer to prevent cuffs being pulled up if a higher-armsyce coat/jacket is to be worn over the shirt.

[SO_tailor]

I'm not the most experienced shirt-maker, but assuming you are using a cutting system without seam allowances, I'd suggest applying the scye depth (from the neck line/nape) and adding no more than 1" to it. If your draft includes seams, then add the given seam allowance to the neck line, and apply the scye depth plus 1".

If the finished armhole is too deep it can be easily narrowed in yoke seam on the back part (or the shoulder seam if you don't have a yoke).

It must be remembered that shirt sleeves are constructed differently from the coat sleeves; shirts sleeves are "conjoined" while coat sleeves are "split". Because of this, shirts can't have a super high armhole like coats. I'd say no more than 1/2" should be allowed under the finished chest/scye line. I find that the smaller the armhole-the tighter the sleeve-elbow "ratio". Thus I think it's best to keep it barely deeper than the coat.

Hope that helps a little.

Edit: Also it may be wise in cutting to add a 3/4" inlay in the yoke seam on the back part (not the yoke proper), and a 3/8" inlay on both sides of the sleeve (3/4 in total). This would allow the scye to be adjusted without causing "damage". It's always wise to do a try-on or fitting with all tailored garments, and that includes shirts, and once a fitting is conducted the excess inlays may be trimmed. The reason I suggest to add the inlay one the top of the back part and not the yoke is because yoke length should be stationary.

[Schneiderfrei]

The issue is best thought of in this way.

It's impossible to accomodate, Modern RTW for every fit, so they have an extra deep scye; anyone canget their arm in the sleeve. So, that shrinks the side seam; whenever you raise your arm the whole jacket lifts up on that side.

In a properly fitted scye, the side seam passes right up to the arm. When the arm is raised, the whole jacket stays just where it is.

[Gerry]

Actually, I just checked one of my shirts. In my case, a 6th of chest is slightly above the apex/chest line. And the armscye I use on my shirt block is even higher (albeit slightly).

That's the difference between a theoretical, flat draft and a pattern derived from testing toiles by someone with a faulty memory.

I also checked a vintage shirt pattern that I bought for analysis. It places the scye firmly at the apex. Which seems a little on the low side, now that I've got the tape measure over an actual shirt. I also checked some old ready to wear shirts that I've held onto, because they're  a good fit. They're around the apex line too (probably why I got a little confused), which is higher than most non-bespoke shirts.

Incidentally, there's an estimate I often see in old books, which is a good rule-of-thumb. Measure at the back from the nape of the neck down to the natural waist (for a reference point, put a belt round the waist, or use a 'waist tape measure'). Halve this then halve it again to give the positions of the armscye and half-back respectively. It's surprisingly close to my actual draft.

NB Edited for a typo.

[SO_tailor]

Gerry, since you seem to have a lot more shirt-making experience than I do, would the alteration I suggested to the user work?

I suggested to this user in the post above Grahams, that if the scye was too deep, he could likely raise up the scye through the yoke seam on the back part. I don't have a lot of expiration making shirts so I just would like to know in the case that this throws off the shirts' balance, which would be rather disastrous.

If the finished armhole is too deep it can be easily narrowed in yoke seam on the back part (or the shoulder seam if you don't have a yoke).

[Gerry]

Gerry, since you seem to have a lot more shirt-making experience than I do, would the alteration I suggested to the user work?

I suggested to this user in the post above Grahams, that if the scye was too deep, he could likely raise up the scye through the yoke seam on the back part. I don't have a lot of expiration making shirts so I just would like to know in the case that this throws off the shirts' balance, which would be rather disastrous.

If the finished armhole is too deep it can be easily narrowed in yoke seam on the back part (or the shoulder seam if you don't have a yoke).

Personally, I wouldn't. Simply because I wouldn't commit to decent cloth for a fitting. I'd use cheap stuff and make notes on what needed changing. Otherwise you risk damaging expensive cloth: armholes and necks can easily be stretched out, especially if something doesn't fit; and cotton doesn't really shrink back into place like wool with a bit of steam.

That's not to say you're wrong, but I foresee a number of problems and you'd need inlay here there and everywhere. If you've drafted the shirt body literally as a block (and there's good reason to do this, initially) then there's no shaping at the sides that would be disrupted/taken out of balance. However, the scye would have to be picked up equally at front and back to keep said balance. Consequently, the neckline would be pulled up (it would need re-cutting) and also the hem (though for a toile, extra length/inlay is likely added anyway). Possibly OK with plain cloth, but not patterned (the intended balance would be thrown out).

In many cases it would also cause slight narrowness at the shoulder. If you think of what you're suggesting as lowering the shoulder line, rather than hoiking up the armhole, then the armhole curve into the shoulder is commonly closer to the CF at slightly lower positions.

Going back to drafting the body literally as a block, it leaves one the option of shaping by pinning on the body. In a number of cases I've miscalculated the horizontal position of waist, chest etc. It's easier to find these points with the shirt in situ rather than on a theoretical draft. I take a bit of scrap card and do the shaping on that. It gets laid onto the cloth after the main block is marked, and the sides are re-marked for shape (if any). I also use the same template for any darts at the back, to keep shaping consistent down the body. It's easy to redraw the sides on another bit of scrap if I don't like the results, rather than copying and amending the whole pattern.

[SO_tailor]

Personally, I wouldn't. Simply because I wouldn't commit to decent cloth for a fitting. I'd use cheap stuff and make notes on what needed changing. Otherwise you risk damaging expensive cloth: armholes and necks can easily be stretched out, especially if something doesn't fit; and cotton doesn't really shrink back into place like wool with a bit of steam.

I am a little confused on this. I thought in the general run of tailoring you fit garments (like coats and trousers) from the cloth itself, not some cheaper goods. I could understand if it's some pricy fabric like vicuña, but I assume most people get normal cloths like suitings, tweeds, flannels, etc. And most shirts are usually made out of cotton or linen, not anything super expensive like silk. Thoughts?

Other than that thanks for slowing the Porsche. I thought the alteration would have been like that of "sliding up" the back on a coat. Didn't think about having to deepen the neck line.
I wasn't thinking about the inlays on the bottom because I like making my own shirts pretty long (about a yard in length *I'm only 5'10*). Of course I should have realized not everybody's taste is like Solomon's!
Maybe I will try the alteration on the next shirt I make to see if it works or not.

[Gerry]

I am a little confused on this. I thought in the general run of tailoring you fit garments (like coats and trousers) from the cloth itself, not some cheaper goods. I could understand if it's some pricy fabric like vicuña, but I assume most people get normal cloths like suitings, tweeds, flannels, etc. And most shirts are usually made out of cotton or linen, not anything super expensive like silk. Thoughts?

In the UK, quality shirting is between £20 to £40 per metre ($25 - $50 dollars). I recently bought some corduroy that was £45. Thankfully only for collar and cuffs, so I only needed half a metre. Prices can go even higher though, if one has deep pockets:

https://www.joelandsonfabrics.com/collections/men-shirting.

I should have said 'relatively cheap' - the cloth still has to be half-decent - but so long as it has a similar weight and weave to what I'll be using, I'm happy with that.

Shirting doesn't take kindly to being unpicked too many times. It's not like coat-making where one can leave inlay and make adjustments over time. It pays to get as close as possible to a perfect draft/fit 1st time, but invariably the first shirt/toile will take one for the team.

[SO_tailor]

I am a little confused on this. I thought in the general run of tailoring you fit garments (like coats and trousers) from the cloth itself, not some cheaper goods. I could understand if it's some pricy fabric like vicuña, but I assume most people get normal cloths like suitings, tweeds, flannels, etc. And most shirts are usually made out of cotton or linen, not anything super expensive like silk. Thoughts?

In the UK, quality shirting is between £20 to £40 per metre ($25 - $50 dollars). I recently bought some corduroy that was £45. Thankfully only for collar and cuffs, so I only needed half a metre. Prices can go even higher though, if one has deep pockets:

https://www.joelandsonfabrics.com/collections/men-shirting.

I should have said 'relatively cheap' - the cloth still has to be half-decent - but so long as it has a similar weight and weave to what I'll be using, I'm happy with that.

Shirting doesn't take kindly to being unpicked too many times. It's not like coat-making where one can leave inlay and make adjustments over time. It pays to get as close as possible to a perfect draft/fit 1st time, but invariably the first shirt/toile will take one for the team.

Oh ok now I understand! Thanks you for clarifying Gerry, very helpful! So I guess if I want to try-on a shirt I'd just grab something like muslin then create a mock up right? It's been a while since I've last made a shirt (been mostly practicing coat making and the likes) and the first time I did a shirt I made a "mock up" and then a basted fitting. Guess old habits are not always bad aye  ?

[Gerry]

Oh ok now I understand! Thanks you for clarifying Gerry, very helpful! So I guess if I want to try-on a shirt I'd just grab something like muslin then create a mock up right? It's been a while since I've last made a shirt (been mostly practicing coat making and the likes) and the first time I did a shirt I made a "mock up" and then a basted fitting. Guess old habits are not always bad aye  ?

I prefer actual shirting to muslin. If you go along to any sewing centre they'll have mid-priced poplins. It might not machine too well, but you should be able to find something of similar weight to 'the good stuff' at a fraction of the price. It's usually good enough for samples and toiles.

Possibly not great for toiles, due to the slightly heavier weight, but light-weight Silesia makes a great shirt and is relatively cheap. Cuts/sews/drapes well and it's durable, so it's an ideal cloth to learn on. The Lining Company in the UK sell it in a variety of colours. If you're tempted and find some locally, just make sure it is light weight, not the heavier stuff. Usually only available in black, white and/or cream, standard Silesia is too thick. So if no weight is attributed to the cloth and it's only in those colours, probably pass.

https://www.theliningcompany.co.uk/trimmings/cotton-silesia/light-weight-cotton-silesia/

[Schneiderfrei]

You use a muslin so that you can produce a pattern from a draft.  You may sometimes rip the muslin to death, so you don't use the final cloth.  Then you don't make any more muslins.

Then for each customer you Always record the changes, so you add them into any new draft.

It's just economy of time and cash. If vicuna is you price point!? Then jeez - do whatever!

[Greger]

If the scye is already too deep the cloth is already ruined.
Right below the yoke, pin the excess, to lift that half. Same on the front. And determine a new waistline.

[Steelmillal]

clear pictionary description.

[Greger]

The Brits say to show some shirt cuff. It is not a requirement. It's a pretty border, if you want a little Flash. Some prefer 3/8 inch. It is better to have rubbing on the cheap shirt cuff than the expensive coat sleeve. British sleeves are also rather narrow. They can easily be twice as wide. Brits don't own tailoring. Tailoring has been around long before the Brits ever learned of it. Some of their contributions are worthy of note. Some of what they do is because of their climate. Scandinavian countries would have variations of their own, as mediterranean, and mountainous places like the Alps, or deserts. Clothes are made for needs and art. I am not British culture. Why would I want British cultural clothes? New York City and the Wild West have different clothing and shoe requirements (the preacher wore a Bolo tie today). Appropriate are not a fantasy. To play with concepts it is indecent to wear black tie to a white tie event. But, if you visit an African tribe that wears nothing, would you be indecent wearing something? Cultural rules? When I was a boy, some men were sent home to change out of their fashion suits. Today, how many younger men even know that there were fashion suits? Concepts come and go and may return.