Fitting trouser muslin

[DrLang]

Hi DrLang,
If you want looking the 30er Style, well done.
I have looked at the pics and one thing I noted is the Front. The waistband looks from sideseam to Center like a V (a bit exergerated). If you alter this giving the right and left fly a right angle at Center. This would result in a curved waistband it would improve the look and maybe get the band nearer to the body at center.
Then the suspenders. In my Opinion they are too long. The ,,yoke"part (Where front and back meet) sits too high at your back. It should rest lower so all of it has contact to your back.
Lg
Posaune

Thank you for your praise. I am indeed going for the old high rise style of the early 1900s for the very reason that Greger gives. I like the illusion of height that it creates when paired with a matching waistcoat (next on my list). Though I do want to try and figure out how to adapt this pattern for a more modern style that wears with a belt at the hip. That might actually come before the waistcoat since I have a wool remnant ready and waiting.

I'm not entirely sure what you are pointing out about the waistband. The top edge was not evenly finished in those last photos due to me repeatedly basting down the top and unpicking it to fix something. I expect these will be effectively finished by the end of tomorrow, so we'll see if what you are seeing is still there. I would love to know so I can fix it next time!

Also agreed on the suspenders. I just got these and had a feeling they would eventually need to be altered for wearing trousers this high. I don't even like the length of them for more usual use. I'm at a terrible height for getting things that fit off the rack.

[Gerry]

Though I do want to try and figure out how to adapt this pattern for a more modern style that wears with a belt at the hip.

There's no great science to lowering the waistline. It's a matter of preference where you decide to put it. You basically use your eye. What looks right? Then you simply take a circumference measurement at that point and amend your pattern accordingly (cut it down to size). Existing trousers - preferably ones that you like wearing - can be used as a guide.

How low to go requires a little consideration. The lowest point for many, is for the trousers proper to come to the very top of the hip-bone, at the sides. The waistband, therefore, sits above this. It would be inadvisable to go any lower in your case because you say that you have short legs. And of course, you can go higher than this. When you're making a toile, simply fold down the top until it looks right. Or chalk off where you'd like things to sit (if the waist looks too high). You need to leave plenty of inlay, anyway, to ensure coverage of the backside when you sit.

Another consideration. If you make the cut too low then side-adjusters don't work too well; because there's not much at the sides to dig into, other than hip bone. Back adjusters do work with low-slung waists: they can dig into the small of the back, so keep the trousers up that way. My main bugbear with adjusters is that they tend to gather cloth at the points where they exist. I don't like the look. Fine if the trousers are part of a suit, because the coat covers up everything. It doesn't look great on stand-alone, casual trousers though. Clearly this isn't going to be a problem for you, because you mention using a belt. In which case, make sure your waistband is made slightly wider than the belt you decide to use (apologies for being obvious, but I've done some dumb things over the years).

Lastly, a lower waist can accentuate the roundness of the belly if the waistband cuts right across it. Even if you're not overweight, this can give the illusion that you are a bit heavy there. For that reasons it's common with low-rise stuff to angle the fronts down more than normal, to undercut the belly area somewhat. Obviously pleats can help, but they don't look right to my eyes with a low waistline.

Experiment. Use your eye.

[peterle]

The lädt Pics are good, the pants seem well balanced!

But I have a question: you said you used a ready made pattern, right? To me IT seems, the pattern is probably made for a taller person. Did you adjust the patterns  knee line to your personal knee heigth? The knee line is an important reference line for creating the pants silhouette. A pants like yours usually taper the leg till the knee line and run straight below this line (more or less). A too low knee line throws off the silhouette somehow.

[DrLang]

The lädt Pics are good, the pants seem well balanced!

But I have a question: you said you used a ready made pattern, right? To me IT seems, the pattern is probably made for a taller person. Did you adjust the patterns  knee line to your personal knee heigth? The knee line is an important reference line for creating the pants silhouette. A pants like yours usually taper the leg till the knee line and run straight below this line (more or less). A too low knee line throws off the silhouette somehow.

Good eye. I just started thinking about this a few days ago after noticing the term "knee notches" coming up in a few different assembly instructions. I was too far committed at that point to check and try to alter it. I just now checked where the knee notches are compared to my knees and you are correct. It's off by quite a bit. I don't have the eye to see it, but it might explain some of what I don't like about the silhouette that I just can't put my finger on.

[peterle]

Yes, the notches usually mark the knee line and too low will elongate the silhouette.

The knee height is calculated: 6/10 of the inseam length measured upwards from the floor. I m sure we have a pattern somewhere in the forum for orientation and details.

[posaune]

My English lacks practice. Maybe a pic is easier to understand. Black is how it is now, red with a right angle at CF  Looks better  in my opinion.
Lg posaune

[Gerry]

I just started thinking about this a few days ago after noticing the term "knee notches" coming up in a few different assembly instructions. I was too far committed at that point to check and try to alter it. I just now checked where the knee notches are compared to my knees and you are correct. It's off by quite a bit. I don't have the eye to see it, but it might explain some of what I don't like about the silhouette that I just can't put my finger on.

This might explain the misalignment issue that I mentioned in my previous post (the back panel being higher, therefore causing twisting of the seam). It's important to align at the knee. And when machine sewing, commence either side of your aligned knees rather than tackling the long seams as one, long run. This not only guarantees alignment at this point (important for balance and pattern matching), but also helps to minimise creep (you're creating shorter runs for the machine by starting in the middle of each leg).

I have long legs and the typical tailor's estimate for determining knee position displaces it by an inch. Not such a big deal with voluminous trousers, but anything that tapers down to the knee and then runs relatively straight looks noticeably out. So IMO, it's better to use an actual measurement. My preferred way to take a self-measurement is as follows:

Sit in a straight chair with your leg perpendicular to the floor. Feel on the inside of your knee-joint for the knobbly part of the bone. Right at the top of this knobbly bit is the centre of your knee joint. If you straighten your leg while sitting, maintaining a finger pressed to this point, you'll see that this is the case. So you measure from the top of the knobble to your heel to obtain exact knee height/position. If you ever do this for someone else, check that they don't have a knee problem first (applying pressure to the joint, to find the top of the Tibia, may cause pain even with gentle pressure).

[Gerry]

Addendum: the estimate I was thinking of that is often/usually seen in tailors' drafts, isn't the one that posaune mentioned ... which is very close to my actual measurement (though still slightly out).

Tailors in the UK are still using systems handed down from the Edwardian period, so typically the knee is given as half inside leg plus-or-minus two inches (depending on whether you take the measurement from the floor or the top of the inseam, respectively). As mentioned, that estimate is an inch out in my case.

[DrLang]

I'm going to call this finished. Though the hem is terrible and needs to be redone. I really need to get a helper to mark things like this. Maybe I'll just take it to a real tailor and use theirs as a reference for the next time I make up this pattern.

I used a button fly because I kinda like button flys. I did not anticipate how hard it would be to get all of the buttons in the right spot. Next time I think I will just use a darn zipper. In the end, the top edge doesn't quite line up. But it's hard for me to tell how much of this is poor button placement and how much is just poor construction. Probably a little bit of both.

I also might try to move the knee line up to where it should be before I completely move on. I will want to do that for the pattern anyway.

I won't bother showing the insides. It leaves a lot to be desired, but I learned a lot that I can fix in the next go around.

[Greger]

They look really nice for a first pair.
 Next pair will be easier. Different books have different methods of construction. You will find a better way of placing the buttons.

[posaune]

Hi DrLang
Nice and as Greger wrote for a first pair excellent.
My remarks: the back adjuster pulls to much fabric. Loose it a bit up. And as aspected the CF waist dips. Look left sideview. The legs of the trouser are not equal. And I would attach a tab with a button to hold the waistband closed. Ihave seen this in ,,Ask Andy" A british Style blogger. I have no experience with this kind of trousers - so googled how to wear fishtails trousers
Lg Posaune

[Gerry]

Yes, well done. My first pair didn't look so good!

The hem is a trivial thing to fix (lengthen the shorter leg and baste it to check before sewing). And as posaune says, loosened the back adjuster a little. If you're wearing braces/suspenders, it's mostly ornamental.

[DrLang]

Thank you all so much for your feedback. I can't begin to imagine how I could have gotten this far without you.

And as aspected the CF waist dips. Look left sideview.

So now that I have it all made up, I can see what you were referring to. I'm also not entirely sure how to fix this. Just adjust the pattern for the fronts to be higher in the CF?

[Greger]

The three volumes.
https://archive.org/search.php?query=The%20Modern%20Tailor%20Outfitter%20and%20Clothier
#1 has a simple way of making trousers. Hand sewn or machined. A bit of fitting in it, too. something about inlays. The cloth is folded, then pattern chalked. Inlays and extras added. Cut through both layers. So, after cutting the fly, chalk the buttonholes, lay the other fly piece on top and hit with clenched fist to transfer the chalk marks. Now you know where to put the buttons and buttonholes. When sewing on make for sure the pieces are exactly lined up.

If I remember correctly Clarence Poulin's method of waistband and trouser assembly is the trouser waist is an inch larger than the waistband all around. When sewn it is evenly eased together. This gives the trousers a nice looseness hanging from the waistband. (For belt trousers.)

There are a lot of competing reasons. When done right and done well they are good and work well with some trends.

[Greger]

The slack in the back strap, as you have done, could be arranged different. I think it is fine. Think there are some old pictures on the internet to see how others have done it. The vest will cover some of that. A regular coat will cover all of it.
Grandad said that the trousers being higher allows for the vest to be higher, which helps the legs appear longer. He died decades and decades ago. When he wanted to he was splendidly dressed.
Met, a few times, a religious group that the males wore fall front trousers. My dad was in the Navy. Issued 13 button fall front Jack Tars. Decades later, I wore them. They were comfortable. Two or three holes down center back with silk shoe string for tightening or loosening the waist size. A V shaped black trouser pocketing was sewn in where the back could split open an inch or so. Clothes are for some fun.