Shirt Collar Guide

[Gerry]

Isn't good shirting suppose to shrink 2% or less? Cotton thread that shrinks with the shirt is helpful. Plastic threads don't shrink.

In my (albeit limited) experience, much depends on the weave, regardless of quality. It's clear from the section on shrinkage in Textiles On Test - admittedly an old publication: 1931 - that a great many factors are at play. The book states that poplins shrink anywhere from 2.7 to 5.1 percent, typically 3.8 percent. I dare say modern tolerances are better, but I was recently drooling over the Cloth House's website. They specialise in handloomed, Indian cloth, much of it block printed. I dare say that shrinkage is unpredictable, given the method of manufacture, but the cloths are so unique I would not rule them out for that reason.

This isn't all for shirting, but all handloomed and much of it is suitable, especially for casualwear:

https://www.clothhouse.com/search?q=handloomed

Full range of shirting here:

https://www.clothhouse.com/collections/shirts-blouses-1

Yes, cotton thread does help and may or may not contract by a similar amount, but either way it makes sense to me to pre-shrink.

[Schneiderfrei]

Greger, I expecct that good poplin does behave like that, 2% seems about right and to an extent I wonder how much that kind of variable is factored into commercial drafts?

I bet JCSprouls from the old forum would have been able to say.  Unfortunately he seemed to precipitously retire.

G

[posaune]

"..........we'll alter the pattern and the subsequent ones will be fine"

So you should order a new one - which will fit then (hope!). And if you like a shirt from another kind of fabric? Some procedure?

How to you do the collar, Gerry? Floating, half floating or glueing?
lg
posaune

[Petruchio]

According to the technical data shrinkage of my go-to poplin is under 2%. Regarding the fuseable interlining I didn't experienced a lot of shrinkage, so it wasn't an issue for me so far.

[Gerry]

"..........we'll alter the pattern and the subsequent ones will be fine"

So you should order a new one - which will fit then (hope!). And if you like a shirt from another kind of fabric? Some procedure?

How to you do the collar, Gerry? Floating, half floating or glueing?
lg
posaune

The deal with smaller, UK, bespoke shirt-makers, is that you place a minimum order. The first shirt is a test garment and 'takes one for the team' to determine fit. Customers take it as read that it may or may not fit. It's also assumed by the maker that the batch of shirts you order is of similar material.

I have no idea what they do when different cloths are requested, but presumably they use the same suppliers for the sake of consistency, so are aware of tolerances. I'm sure they're low, but even a tiny 2 percent is nearly a third of an inch off a 15 inch collar. If customers are awkward, then see page 65 of Textiles On Test (you'll need to use the full screen and magnifying buttons):

https://archive.org/details/textiles-on-test-j-guilfoyle-williams_202103/page/n43/mode/2up

I soak my shirting in hot water. When the garment is made up, lengths and proportions are as expected, so any of my fitting issues result from poor measurement taking - as I'm sure many of you can sympathise, it can be difficult taking one's own measurements! - or unfamiliarity with a draft's 'issues'.

At school, my shirt collars were mostly floating, so I'm used to them and that's how I do my collars. I don't use fusing. I know it has its uses and sometimes can be an improvement on old ways, but I don't like the stuff. I've recently taken to using suit canvas for reinforcement. Not the stuff used to structure suits, but cloth that you'd use for the exterior of a summer suit. It's thin enough for shirting and provides a nice, stiff collar. It's also cheaper per metre, and comes wider, than 'shirting canvas' (which I find too soft). I don't have a regular supplier, I just look for end of range/bolt canvas whilst ordering other cloth from various places.

I wonder how much that kind of variable is factored into commercial drafts?

Judging by what I've bought over the years, they just make everything oversize. By sheer fluke, I once bought a corduroy shirt that actually didn't overshoot my shoulders and looked good on me. I immediately bought another in a different colour and still wear them. Everything else I've owned has been oversized somewhere or other. Usually on the shoulders, where the seams deliberately extend beyond the range of normal humans (one size fits none). They must use gorillas when determining block patterns.

[Schneiderfrei]

Judging by what I've bought over the years, they just make everything oversize. By sheer fluke, I once bought a corduroy shirt that actually didn't overshoot my shoulders and looked good on me. I immediately bought another in a different colour and still wear them. Everything else I've owned has been oversized somewhere or other. Usually on the shoulders, where the seams deliberately extend beyond the range of normal humans (one size fits none). They must use gorillas when determining block patterns.

Ha ha, I found a good fitting shirt, Marc menswear, Sydney in the early 1990's. I continued to buy them for a few years but one year I visited Sydney again and it seemed that their target market had changed to barrel chested guys with short arms and tiny necks. I never found another of their shirts to fit me.

But I had been so impressed with the first shirt, my (first) wedding shirt, I had immediately made an exact copy.  It greatly disturbed my then wife who asked a friend "How can he do that!?" The friend, who was my Chinese Tai Chi teacher said "By the heart."

It was around that time I began to search for tailoring literature, and realised how difficult it was to find them.  I decided that old tailors were clearly buried with their books and their shears on their chest.

I continued copying that shirt for 10 years, with more or less success. but I knew I wouldnt be happy until I knew the machinations of drafting.

I learned a lot from "How to make Men's Clothes" but that was only trousers.

Until I found the Cutter and Tailor forum in 2014.  By then Tailoring had really passed away, and all those precious books were up for sale.  I now have a splendid library, and thanks to a number of people, who know who they are, I have a working grasp of drafting, fitting and construction.

G

[posaune]

Do you own "Das Hemd"., Schneiderfrei? The content (180 pages) is all about making shirts (sewing, cutting and design) - but no fitting. Not bespoke - more industrial, but a treasue and very allround - I learned a lot from it. After reading it my shirts started to look professional.
I started sewing shirts for my husband maybe 20 years ago, because he fitted not in any bought stuff. He bought RTW - nasty. Meanwhile I order fabric from England, interlining from France and buttons from Germany.
lg
posaune
ISBN 3-8334-3312-4

[Steelmillal]

Caveat: I was stuck on hold with the USPS trying to track a misdelivered package and stumbled into old forum to fill 30 minutes. Also, I'm looking for a business in Germany to relay DHL shipping to the USPS, so such things don't happen again. Any names in EU very good?

Anyway, lots and lots useful below on present topic.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110710225659/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showforum=11

[Greger]

How to you do the collar, Gerry? Floating, half floating or glueing?
lg
posaune

That is a good question.
And, is the glue kept out of the seam allowance?

[Schneiderfrei]

Posaune, I should really get that book. Do you mean the Mueller book?

I concentrated hard on fitting and drawing drafts, but I have relied on the older literature to do contruction. 

The Women's Institute - Tailoring book from the 30's and 40's have been inspiring.

I always wanted to do the Parson's Tunic, to a more modern bodice (Mueller 2000yr). And I did that last summer. I followed the construction details in the article:

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=1008.msg7697

Forgive the non-ironing, it's currently 34C inside the house.

The cloth is Acorn: Kendal Sky wool blend - discontinued, but my favourite check, and Windsor brown poplin also discontinued.

The interlining, which is clean french cotton - Melosan, is only secured by the overstitching.

The Buttons are from Prestige - 18 ligne.

I'll do a proper thing later.

G

[Schneiderfrei]

Is this the book you were telling about posaune?

[posaune]

Hi Schneiderfrei, oh no.

https://lbib.de/Das-Hemd-Fertigung-Schnitt-Design-30224

The book was written by 2 brothers (Lauer, Hermann and Alexander), who worked all their life in the shirt making business (no bespoke). Described is the whole process. After reading it - I think - you can open a shop.
par ex.:
Which interlining to use for the basic interlining. (Naturally, they glue.) in  Gr/m2
dinner shirt  170
correct business shirt 170
city shirt  145
military   170
working   145
leisure      50-100
casual      50-100
folklore   145
you see, why it is interesting.
They write doing a second interlining in collars, which are supposed to roll.( - ex. button down)
I buy all my shirtings at Acorns, too. Now in winter the brushed shirts are great.  Quality never lets you down.
lg
posaune

[Schneiderfrei]

Ok, I've had a look, and will put aside some cash.

[Gerry]

While looking for something else, I accidentally stumbled across this. Some good, basic stuff on fit:

https://www.rampleyandco.com/blogs/the-journal/complete-guide-bespoke-shirts

[Gerry]

That's a nice looking shirt Schneiderfrei, but bloody hell, you weren't joking when you said it needs a press! (I thought I was bad)