V&A Fashioning Masculinities Exhibition

[Gerry]

Went along to the V&A today and this caught my eye. A late period Sholte-cut coat for the Duke of Windsor. No front darts, giving a very flat, boxy look to the front (which compensated for his puny chest). Not keen on roomy sleeves at the back.

https://flic.kr/p/2nG3DSV

https://flic.kr/p/2nG3DDt

https://flic.kr/p/2nG7mZT

https://flic.kr/p/2nG3DYB

https://flic.kr/p/2nGa1wa

The pattern that the Duke had for that period (from another exhibition):

https://flic.kr/p/2nG9ZjW

This mid-century US made tail-coat was beautiful:

https://flic.kr/p/2nG3HS8

The lighting was really dim in the rooms, to protect the clothing, but hopefully you can just make out that the shoulder seam starts towards the back of the neck and continues down to the half-back point at the arm, aligning perfectly with the back-seam of the sleeve (though unfortunately you probably won't be able to make that out):

https://flic.kr/p/2nG7r7q

Sadly, virtually everything was displayed behind glass, making photography impossible (too much glare from the overhead lights). So I couldn't take many snaps.

There was a display pretty much showing the evolution of the suit. Four different 19th century frock coats, from about 1825 to 1890. One from Paris, another from New York and the rest from the UK. These sat alongside an early Lounge Coat (1870s) which had a seam around the whole waist (pretty ugly for it), no different than the frock coats. According to the blurb:

"Tailors found it difficult to cut the fronts in one piece and from the 1820s, a waist seam was introduced to support the weight of the skirts."

So despite all the cutting books of the time, it seems that at least one English tailoring house was still stuck in past practices towards the late 1800s, when it came to the lounge coat. Also that many were simply unaware of how to shape cloth - I don't recall seeing any side panels or darts in these coats.

There was a beautiful, one-buttoned double-breasted suit from the early 30s that I fell in love with. Sadly, the photo didn't turn out that well. So well tailored though.

[Gerry]

Apologies for the poor quality photo, but if you enlarge this snap of the lounge coat, you'll see that waist seam I mentioned:

https://flic.kr/p/2nG8gda

And here's a better snap of that mid-century coat with the drop-back shoulder seam. You can just about see the shoulder seam continue into the arm, almost as a straight line:

https://flic.kr/p/2nG8g9C

Beautiful shaping back there. I've seen English makers take the shoulder at a backwards angle before, but never to this extent.

Here's the 1931 double breasted I fell in love with (again, sorry for the quality), belonging to the poet Edward James (me neither):

https://flic.kr/p/2nGaURA

And this curio from Cardin. I've seen many snaps of it before, but never from the back so I thought I'd post a shot from that angle for those with a similar lack of taste as myself:

https://flic.kr/p/2nGaYv5

https://flic.kr/p/2nG4yAF

No Cardin, no Captain Scarlet. My childhood would have been very different.

[TTailor]

I think that tailcoat dates to 1820's-30's or so. That shoulder seam placement is usual for the period. Beautiful coat, I agree!

[Gerry]

I can see why you'd say that Terri, but one thing I took away from this exhibition is just how conservative tailoring houses have always been.

Academic/text books in general, often summarise knowledge of recent, past decades, with no real (or accurate when they do) projection of future trends. It seems that the opposite was true with respect to cutting. A lot of progressive books were clearly around in the 19th century, but customers and tailors were ultra conservative and dressed/cut in past styles, using past knowhow (an example being that pig-ugly Lounge coat from the 1870s).

With respect to the coat it was perhaps regressive for the time? I say that because the V&A put it squarely in the mid 19th century. The trousers (not shown) were 'trendy', however, and resembled what we'd now think of as a narrow leg, fly-front cut.

https://flic.kr/p/2nGigF7

Have you made coats of this style Terri? If so, what about the front canvas? Does it wrap right over the shoulder along with the front cloth? I like how clean the back is (compared with many modern coats, which can look atrocious from behind, even if bespoke). That drop-back seam could easily encompass a dart to clean up the back of arms. Though I image the shoulders are a compromise?

[Greger]

None of these garments are on the persons they were made for. So, you really can't tell the full quality.
When did lounge coats really become the norm? 1917? Body coats were the business coats of the day. One tailor in his book (about the turn of the century) in England, no tailor would show up to work without his finest frock. The skirt was sewn on all the way around.
You mentioned pressing. Some of those tailors were amazing artist. Each customer is different. The shaping for each customer would only be for that customer.
The canvas is cut all the way to the seam.
This one forum this one guy showed pictures of a coat he made, something like 186x. This guy on his travels would visit tailors and ask. He accumulated some knowledge and know how. I don't think there was any weave of the cloth set flat of that coat.
When you buy cloth the weave is set flat. But, when the tailor is finished the weave is set at various curves depending upon the person it is being made for. Cloth set on the flat and forced into curves is at war with itself. Especially in movement. Sleeve roll, press mitt and tailors ham are rather important tools. I don't mind seeing flat sometimes. Those who are good with the curves are artist.

[Gerry]

You make a very good point, Greger. We're so used to seeing seams and darts that we forget things were done differently in the past. True artistry indeed.

That said, there are drafting books from before the time that lounge coat was made, showing how to cut 'short-sack' coats, darts and all. I think the example at the V&A demonstrates the conservative nature of tailors, approaching things as they'd always done them (seam all the way round, like a frock coat) when asked for 'modern' styles.

Either way, it was fascinating to see the evolution of Men's clothing through the centuries, and most of the exhibits (thankfully) looked good on the mannequins.

[Gerry]

The date range backs up what I've noticed in cutting books of the mid 19th century:

"Photographs, more numerous from the 1860s, reflect changing fashions of the decade. Gentlemen retained formal frock coats and top hats but many adopted loose lounging jackets and contrasting trousers"

From this blog (scroll down):

https://jayneshrimpton.co.uk/blog/how-to-date-old-photographs-from-fashion-part-1-victorian-studio-photographs/

A little flat looking without front darts (though to be fair, the guy on the right is reclining slightly, so not the best way to show off a garment).

Also, some 1860s illustrations:

http://www.victoriana.com/Mens-Clothing/mens-clothing-1867.html

Another coat or two from the 1860s. Second is British and has no waist seam, so it could be done (though perhaps the inclusion of a seam was requested, to give more shape?):

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/158355

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/83181?rpp=90&pg=1&ao=on&ft=suit&when=A.D.+1800-1900&pos=49

Yet another 1860s lounge coat. Clicking on the second view shows the dropped-back shoulder seam I'm more used to seeing:

https://collections.lacma.org/node/214529

[TTailor]

Yes, I have made many of this style of coat, and yes the canvas does wrap over the shoulder. Often the front shoulder seam is on the cross grain (possibly to save fabric which then  defines the style) and yes, some of the fullness required for the shoulder blade can often be incorporated in that seam.

I was basing a bit of my guess as to it-s time on the sleeve treatment as well. The shape and length of the cuff over the hand felt earlier to me, but those style trends did continue into the mid century too. The height and overall shape of the collar, the lack of fullness in the sleeve head (more mid 19th c)and the way the armhole is shaped in the back. I am sure they spent a lot of time and have many resources to back up their timeframe, whereas my impression was earlier 😁

Fashions persisted and not everyone had the means to regularly have new fashionable clothing made and for the average person clothes were worn for a long time and remade quite often. The rich certainly had more leeway to be stylish.
We tend to get focused on an iconic silhouette for certain periods and forget that people wore many variations of the current style. Designers tend to get stuck in having the same silhouette repeated endlessly.

It certainly is a beautiful coat, would love to see inside it too.

[Gerry]

Excellent information, thank you Terri!  I totally get the shoulder being on the cross grain. At the end of the year I'll have to do some experimenting with this shoulder (though not for a period reconstruction, as much as I like the look).

Yes, it's a shame that we couldn't see the insides. The Fashion and Textile Museum recently staged an exhibition of late 60s, Chelsea-boutique clothing, much of it menswear. As an accompaniment to the show one could download a vid for a small fee where one of the curators discussed and showed how the garments were put together. Despite the outrageous colours, fabrics and cuts, it was surprising how well made a lot of it was. Either the proprietors had a background in tailoring, or stuff was sent to tailoring workshops to be made. Either way, it kept nerds like me happy!

[Gerry]

Incidentally, for all the criticism of the drape cut, there was a documentary about the Duke of Windsor on TV recently showing lots of unseen footage. Not only did he look immaculate and stylish at all times, but the backs of his coats (you could occasionally see them in shot) were very clean. Going back to Greger's point, the clothes were made for the man, not the mannequin.

[Schneiderfrei]

Fashions persisted and not everyone had the means to regularly have new fashionable clothing made and for the average person clothes were worn for a long time and remade quite often. The rich certainly had more leeway to be stylish.

This reminds me of something I heard once. 

Friend: "That is a very fine sweater you have on today!"


Aristocrat:  "Why thank you, It's been in my family since 1965".

G

[Gerry]

This reminds me of something I heard once. 

Friend: "That is a very fine sweater you have on today!"

Aristocrat:  "Why thank you, It's been in my family since 1965".

G

I threw out a T shirt yesterday. I realised that I'd been wearing it every summer for nearly 30 years! It was good quality though.

[Schneiderfrei]

He he he.

[Hendrick]

Thank you all!