Rotated Sleeve

[posaune]

I'm looking for a simple and handy explanation why a sleeve must be rotated (turned?) (for which figure type??) and how I can already incorporate this in the pattern construction. For myself it is always 1-1.5 cm rotation to the back. Especially with plaid fabric etc. it would be an immense time saver.
Sometimes I do not get it!
lg
posaune

[Gerry]

Simple overview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvTOcrc1tU4

[posaune]

Thank you, Gerry. I must look it more times then one. I think the essence is that you must adjust the grain line to the angle of the arm hang. And the best way is to mark where at the front the sleeve is hanging? I attach a little drawing. Am I right? I have rotated the sleeve about 0.8 cm at shoulder each direction

[Steelmillal]

Caveat, just'a dumb ol'e Millwright's answer written late last night... Ma'am, I recall before a similar question when I found the answer in one of the computer drives in an old American book scan. Of course it's hidden in a terabyte or three now and illusive. What follows is about the same...


The above was taken from a 1935 Mitchell fur book and, since leather doesn't stretch, meets my 'pipefitter' view, in as much that it's right or wrong, fits or doesn't, no fudging or forcing allowed.

My take is use the scye depth as a pivot point/datum axis, directionally front or back, v. rotating the entire sleeve draft: cut horizontal line 3-13 and adjust pattern. It would allow plaids/lines to match and still afford customization for customer arm set. "Stock" "system" pitch points/marks would remain static and drags on a basted muslin sleeve would show needed direction correction. Below was taken from The Red Book by Croonborg:





 
Last is from Vincent:







Generally, I can't say I've ever noticed pattern mismatch at the elbow, but sure do at and above scye depth. Hope this makes sense and is correct. I'm real interested in other views and methods.
The links below are for Sator's C&T. I think if one uses g00gle to open archive, when you save the file, it doesn't black out like microsqaush windows does here in the USA. The photos should still open independently, though ...Peace, Y'all.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130511001948/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2484
"A Sleeve System with Multiple Pitch Marks"
https://web.archive.org/web/20150912110300/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=850
"Grain of sleeve"
https://fashion-incubator.com/how-to-find-the-grainline-on-a-sleeve/
note: archive embedded link still worked but pulled direct from site.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150916233009/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2485
"Lounge and Sleeve Cutting System by Leonard Ostling" ..note: I'd not seen this before today as photobucket blacked out on my saved file. included anyway..


Added two more with sleeve drags caused by straightening arms v. standing at ease.

[Gerry]

Rather than thinking of the arm's position changing with posture, perhaps it's better to think of the arm as static: gravity ensures that (when relaxed) the upper arm hangs perpendicular to the floor and parallel to the body when posture is totally straight. We now consider the variants.

If someone stands with their hips forward, then the body leans back slightly, at an angle relative to the ground. The arm, when relaxed, is still perpendicular to the ground, but it is now tilted back relative to the slanting body/garment. If no adjustment is made, this will cause wrinkling at the back of the arm.

Conversely, if someone is hunched over, the body is angled forward relative to the ground. Again, the upper arm remains perpendicular to the floor, but relative to the body/garment it's now angled forward. Wrinkling is now at the front.

Yes, tailors mark the wrist position with chalk on the side of the garment, giving them an idea of where the sleeve should naturally sit.

I'm not a coat maker, BTW. I don't have practical experience of this, just a theoretical understanding.

[Hendrick]

By no means a coatmaker, but experiencend in womens' blazers. My bell starts ringing when a person has, what we call, a tilted hip or pelvis. This has much (if not everything) to do with weight and body length. Like Gerry indicates the "hang" of the arms is subject to gravity.
Generally, a taller or slimmer person with a strong enough back, will have a tendency to hunch with the axis of the arms changing accordingly.
A heavier person will have the endency to tilt their behind backwards so the arm will point more forward. The difference in angle in between a normal position of the behind and the pronounced tilted position is a good indication for correcting the sleeve-angle... 

[Steelmillal]

Not what I was looking for but near enough. If I understand, fabric grain to match plaids may should best come after a muslin?

[posaune]

If you do a muslin!!!!! :-):-)
Now that is interesting, Steelmill, do you have the whole article? Interests me.
I played a bit around and draw something. I came to the conclusion that pivoting point would be center of the sleeve cap. I attach 2 drawings. first: rotating point is at cap bottom



second rotating point a center sleeve cap. I have drawn in the pitches back and front. To see if I could match the fabric



Where I do I err?
lg
posaune

[Steelmillal]

I went to g00gle books for a link, but it looks like someone, likely g00gle, poached it. I'll keep looking to see if any are open to download still, but here are cropped screenshots.







I think that to match a plaid or overcheck, the sleeve pattern needs split and the bottom rotated. The armhole would follow the original pitch marks. I thought DZ had something say about this before and was something similar.

I'll keep looking for what I found before as it was distinct and exacting. For me it was very interesting as I have large-ish muscles for an old guy and my arms often don't fit 'normal' sleeves in vertical drop or size.


...and a photo of Princess Elizabeth with a bunch of arm drags in uniform...

[Gerry]

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433090917554&view=1up&seq=147&skin=2021

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/ls?q1=The+American+tailor+and+cutter&field1=ocr&a=srchls&ft=ft&lmt=ft

PS Arm can only rotate from the joint (centre of the sleeve cap).

[Steelmillal]

PS Arm can only rotate from the joint (centre of the sleeve cap).

...So to match plaids or overchecks, with fore/aft hanging arms, one would make a pattern like shown in Croonberg's book I posted earlier, right? Just find the customer arm angle and alter the draft to match, and keep original pitch marks so's plaid lines match and armhole insertion is 'easy'?

Does anyone have such a thing from Müller? I do not.

Thx Gerry.

[Gerry]

As mentioned earlier, I don't have enough practical experience to give advice confidently. Re pattern-matching, I'd use some cheap material first just for sleeves and see how a fitting goes before pattern-matching expensive cloth. Regardless of how well something's drafted, the reality is often different. 

[Steelmillal]

A Regardless of how well something's...  ...the reality is often different. 

Ich auch. I apply the Pi principle: however long someone says it will take, multiply that times Pi. It's a closer estimate. No worries, no hurries.. Peace.

[posaune]

I'm not the quiet type now ......... I just want to get it.
Somewhere at Müller (year 1950 -60) I once saw pictures, they talk about the high or low inserted sleeve. (They changed the pitch to high and low) Nowadays I see a lot about cutting horizontal the upper sleeve cap and shoving the upper part to the back or the front respectively - trueing the seams afterwards.
Yep a muslin  - how boring .-)) sigh
lg
posaune

[Greger]

This may be of some help. Believe it works either way.
Didn't Jeffery Diduch discuss this somewhere?
As far as rotation goes, I think some of you have the rotation point to low.