Drafting systems that are for bigger sizes

[TTailor]

Hello All!
I wondered if anyone has come across any drafting system that deals specifically with large and tall men.
I am fine adapting my own drafting techniques to achieve what I need, but perhaps there is some other information that I can use to augment my process, or that has proportional formulas that deal with increased sizing.

For example I have a gentleman who is 6'3" 190 cm tall and is a 140 cm chest, waist 114cm and hip 117cm.

[Greger]

ATailor, when he was around, said for weight lifters, with a large chest, to use the breast dart clear down to the hem.
Depos said for weight lifters,  because of muscle expansion from tension, I  think he said, take both measures and use half way between.

[pfaff260]

It's not much, but is what i have for big breasted men. That's probably your biggest problem with this gentleman?

[posaune]

I would get the kreeps to fit a 140 chest to a 117 hip!
lg
posaune

[TTailor]

Thanks Pfaff, i will have a look at this.
Opera singers Posaune! Not easy to make patterns for, at least I will get a fitting. I wish I had taken the measurements though.

I guess what is more to the point is whether there is information about dealing with plus sizing somewhere.
Obviously there is manufacturing for big and tall men, so someone has done the research, whether it is proprietary or not is the question.
How much can one rely on typical proportional formulas that work for smaller sizes when drafting for larger ones? Even something like using 1/4 height as a base for the back waist length changes due to the extra « padding » that larger bodies carry.
The British systems have the working scale formula even for smaller sizing, because the typical use of half chest does not work for some calculations.
And in the women's Muller  tables, there is a size break ( I think it may be at 100 cm bust) where the formula to calculate back width, and front width change.

[peterle]

I just can help you with a bit general information on the older Mueller system:
The caculation disc for Mueller men covers body height up to 196cm,  chest width up to 146cm, waist width up to 130cm and hip girth up to 148cm. So the system should generally cover your singer.
The 17th edition (1965) considers "normal": waist girth is chest width minus 8-10cm, hip girth is chest width plus 6cm. Beginning belly: waist is chest minus 6-0cm, Belly figure: waist larger than chest. This scheme is kept till today. Other deviating proportions must be cared for by manipulating the pattern.
I found some this about the topic on the Mueller webside:
https://www.muellerundsohn.com/allgemein/massnehmen-und-massberechnung-bei-herren/ about measuring. Besides other things it says the auxillery measurments (as the back waist length) should always be calculated and measured for comparison. It also says that the added or subtracted amounts differ according to the figure and garment types. Especially for the back waist length the text prefers the measured amount because there are long and short torsos. BTW: Mueller says that those tables for women you´r talking about don´t exist yet for men.

https://www.muellerundsohn.com/shop/groessentabellen-fuer-herren-oberbekleidung/ This publication covers the sizing tables for 9 different body types (normal , belly, short, tall,  sport ecc.)  and includes all auxillary meaurments for these types. I´m sure these are the tables for manufacturing for tall men. Im´not sure it helps for creating patterns for an idividual.

[posaune]

I can give you a small mueller table for sportive slim and long men. There are sizebreaks included.
url=https://postimg.cc/yDTjqCPh][/url]
hope it can help
lg posaune

[TTailor]

Thank you Peterle and Posaune!
All of this information is helpful.

As an aside,
I find it interesting as well because there is quite a lot of discussion going on about plus size sewing patterns  how many independent pattern companies do not offer patterns in the top end of sizing and a kind of expectation that they should, and if they do not they should be ashamed of that.
I think that it is a huge amount of work and cost to produce a pattern line, and plus sizes need perhaps even more testing because there are fewer resources, and more variation in body shape to be dealt with.
Perhaps the market for them is smaller too.

Anyway, just something I have noticed online recently.

Thank you again!

[TSjursen]

Size tables for different types of larger figures are available from eg. Hohenstein (see https://www.hohenstein.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads/Research/Hohenstein_Plus_Size_Men_Fit_Across_Entire_Size_Ranges.pdf?utm_source=short-url&utm_medium=print&utm_campaign=anthropometry-apparel-sizing-and-design for a flyer with some examples of what they are working with), and there are other sources as well. You might be able to get them separately, but the tables and corresponding 3d models are usually bundled with cad drafting tools. Also the measurements might not translate so easily into rundschau for traditional flat pattern drafting, as things are increasingly moving in the direction of 3d modeling and prototyping with the translation to flat patterns being done through software or manually manipulating a 2d representation of the garment alongside a 3d simulation.

If you haven't tried any 3d patternmaking software yet I highly encourage you to do so, it is a very useful tool especially if you work with a lot of different types of garments that may be difficult to visualize on the client before a fitting. The availability of plus size models for use in these programs is much better now than it was only a few years ago, and I suspect it won't be long before 3d-scanning becomes financially viable even for smaller operations. I was skeptical of this approach for a very long time as the translation from 3d model to 2d pattern used to be (and in many cases still is) very crude, but as you can see in the presentation i posted above things are moving in the right direction.

[TTailor]

Thanks for that Tsjursten! Things are certainly changing rapidly, I'm not sure if 3D modeling is in my future, but who knows......

[Greger]

http://web.archive.org/web/20150922131153/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1108

http://web.archive.org/web/20150915045041/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=849

[TTailor]

Thanks, I will reread those as well

[Greger]

Looking at the measurements again instead of portly they are closer to bird breast. Some Italians run the breast dart all the way to the hem in most, if not, all their coats. Is there a reason not to? Breast darts can start as high or low as one wants, or thinks best. For reference one tailor&cutter pattern the breast dart is very high, and Poulin's is rather low. Some range there to create a pleasing shape.
Then there is drape cuts that are to the chest size while reducing at the sides. Grabbing some info and methods doesn't mean it has to be drape. Drape is a straight cut. To add chest room they add to the side and change the scye to that point. The other way is a crooked cut. Shirts are straight cut. The drape method is one way to add for a larger chest. The 4-6 button coats, don't remember how to add for larger chest. Not sure how far back they were popular. Tailor & Cutter Journals would bring these questions up now and then, with answers, so younger tailors could make these requests.
The first experimental muslem would start rather crooked with a bit of drape method added, low breast dart  to the hem. And see how that works down the front.

[Zanzare]

I frequently draft patterns for opera singers of all shapes and sizes and the most common alterations I have to do to the pattern in terms of slashing and spreading is adjustment of the front length which for some designs and proportions is not always the easiest....sometimes you just would love to make some darts and sewing lines as you do for women's chests....but you can't. And to make things worse the costume designers love really bold stripes or checked patterns for those Barrel chested (with or without a belly) men....

I think it is important to carefully observe where the areas that need attention are on the body as proportionate calculations defined by height and chest measurement sometimes would lead to a too big of a neckline, a too big/low or too small/high armhole or a drapy bottom half of a jacket for example. Unfortunately in the opera world we often have to rely on measurements that are taken by someone else on the other side of the globe and pictures from the internet....

Often I also find that for the overall bigger men (my last draft was for a chest 150 cm, waist 155 cm and hip 160 cm) that they also need a lot of adjustments to the upper back area similar to the adjustments you would do for a hump but by adjusting the front for the needed length and width as well (whilst for a client with a real hump you probably would rather shorten the front section and possibly make it narrower in the chest area)

[Schneiderfrei]

I found some images in my stash.

I haven't had a very deep look yet, but see if these are useful?

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