A few questions regarding drafting and construction of trousers

[Schneiderfrei]

Another Pivot method is found in Rhinehart's book, "How to Make Men's Clothes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sargeoqv5myfuou/jane_rhinehart_How_to_make_mens_clothes.pdf?dl=0

The real trick is to get the Spaltdurchmesser, as per Rundschau.

The use of aluminium foil to get the exact shape has been done.

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[Gerry]

That is definitely an interesting way of finding that measure, Gerry. I think I saw that guy's videos a few years ago but his method seemed a little too strange for me to want to try. Now that I revisit it, there's probably a lot I could learn from it.

The body sloper is the most interesting thing about his method. He takes more of a couturiers approach when fitting, draping everything and looking for balance of lines. Though it's all intuitively drafted in the first place.

Not a method I would use by its self, but a great supplement to more 'traditional' (tailor based) knowledge.

[Gerry]

The real trick is to get the Spaltdurchmesser, as per Rundschau.

The use of aluminium foil to get the exact shape has been done.

I'm guessing that's the German for 'crotch curve'? Flexible rulers and coat hangers have also been used.

[DOG SALT]

Good info. I hope I can get my hands on his book soon. I will look at Rinehart's draft. I haven't tried swinging for the back rise, and if the Rundschau does it, its probably a good method. Going back to other details of trouser drafts, I'm wondering some things about the center line. In many drafts, the center line is placed at 1/3 scale from the side seam. Others place it 3/4" from this measure towards the sideseam (Chaudhry), and ive seen some other measures used. I have read on cutting open or closed trousers, but its hard to find any very clear info on specific measures to apply to more casual trousers, or more formal. I have questions like "if I wanted to draft a pair of jeans or other workwear, how much would I bring the centerline outwards?" or "for the cleanest hanging trousers, not prioritizing comfort, how much inwards should I bring the centerline inwards?". The same with seat angle, what degree of variation should I use? I would like to make a few muslins of different drafts to try out open/closed cut, and try different seat angles. I will probably start with Duffy's trouser draft, and then try some variations of centerline and seat angle. Where would be a good place to start? Would 2.5 degrees of seat angle be good, or 5 degrees maybe? And for the center line, 1/4" or 1/2"? Any resources would be greatly appreciated!

[Gerry]

By centreline, do you mean crease-line of the leg?

For a straight leg, the method I use is to sort the lower trunk/body first, then do the leg. The crease-line is half the distance between the tip of the topside's fork and the side seam, all along crotch level. Square up/down and continue to mark the leg as normal.

If you think about it, these two points will meet when the trouser leg is pressed; so it's a definite point that the crease-line runs through.

Just because jeans were typically cut with an edge-out approach, doesn't mean to say you have to cut like that. Selvedge stuff is very blocky/rectangular looking. Personally, I wouldn't cut a pair of jeans like that. There are more flattering cuts.

By seatline angle, I assume you mean how much to angle the centre-back seam, (in effect) by creating a pivot at the seat line? (or crotchline/waistline with other systems). If you can measure or estimate the extra rise needed at the back, then the angle is academic. You work to a rise line/measurement. The angle will be whatever it is.

Apologies if I've misunderstood.

PS making toiles is the best way of learning and evaluating various systems.

[DOG SALT]

Yes, I mean the center crease. In drafting though, the knee and hem measures are placed according to this line. Basically im talking about open or closed cut trousers. I'm looking now at some resources for this. Books around 100 years old seem to talk about this stuff much more than modern ones. I hear that casual clothes like jeans are cut more open, meaning the center line is placed closer towards the outseam, as this allows greater ease of movement. This may not be true though, as drafts I have looked at seem to have the center line in the same place as standard trousers. It truly would be great to see something like an old 501 selvedge draft. I wonder if they move the center out to make the outseam straight for the selvedge, or maybe they just place a draft with standard center line placement with the outseam on the selvedge, meaning the grainline would not be technically proper. I guess one way of finding out would be to look at the horizontal grain, and if it is not perfectly horizontal, that would mean they dont place the pattern perfectly straight (properly). I'm also interested in the seat angle they would have used for those drafts. I wonder if there is any info out there on this.

[Gerry]

I think it all comes down to 'figuration', Dog Salt: i.e., using the appropriate leg position for your/a client's body. Any deviating from that 'correct' position will at best result in an ill-fitting garment, and at worst twisted seams.

I'd be wary of following Edwardian cutting advice to the letter. It's possible that their concept of good posture was different than now. In at least a couple of books from that time, I've seen drawings where the feet are side-by-side, touching. This was considered normal and leg shapes were adjusted accordingly, coming in slightly at the bottoms. Good posture (which is different from typical posture), by today's standards, has the feet parallel with one another and slightly apart, in line with the hips so as to give support to the body. At least that's what I learned in my early 30s (I spent six months working with an osteopath to correct my crappy posture).

As for garment manufacturers, one cut can't possibly suit all customers. Paul Kruize, who makes selvedge jeans, is at least honest about this. In an interview I heard with him he makes it very clear that his cut is totally straight on the outside seam, bar some shaping at the waist/top hip. He said that it's ill suited for anyone with curves.

[Gerry]

I wonder if they move the center out to make the outseam straight for the selvedge,

That's exactly why they do it. They make a virtue of showing off the selvedge, by creating a totally straight line on the side seam. This proves that the denim is 'raw'.

One or two regency period patterns books demonstrate this blocky cutting method. Mostly for kids' wear, but it must have been used for adults too at one point. In north west Africa, some tailors still use this 'side-out' approach (though just as many use modern methods, from what I've seen).

[Gerry]

If you wish to learn a little about the selvedge approach, Paul Kruize talks about his method towards the middle of this interview:

https://podtail.com/podcast/common-threads-3/paul-kruize-paul-kruize-jeans-common-threads-003/

This video is incredibly rough and ready, but the basic approach is typical. Though for selvedge jeans, the cloth wouldn't be cut on the fold. The outside seams would correspond to, and incorporate, the lined-up selvedge:

https://youtu.be/OZHoUURwfLw

Page 6 onwards:

https://www.cuttersguide.com/pdf/Pattern-Guides-Male/rules_and_direction_for_cutting_mens_clothes_by_the_square_rule.pdf

Going by the measurements in the above publication, either people were minute during the regency period, or these are kids' trousers/were cut to scale for the purpose of demonstration. Who knows?

[DOG SALT]

Those look like some great resources, Gerry. I will definitely check them out. I do wonder where I heard that bringing the center line outwards allows for greater mobility for things like workwear, where one will be sitting, standing, crouching, etc. It does make sense to me though, that if cut in that way, it would allow greater mobility. I believe pants for riding horses are cut in that way, as the legs must be able to come out much further than with walking or whatever. So in theory, with a normal stance on the normal figure, they would fit less clean, but would permit more mobility. If such pants as Levi's 501 are cut in such a way that the hem measure is squared out from the side seam, rather than this measure being centered on the center line, then the fit would depend a lot on the hem measure. A narrow hem would result in a wider stance. A wider hem would bring the legs inwards. I wonder if this is something taken into consideration with garments like this. I know there are many that take jeans seriously, and so I'm sure people have thought about this before. Oh how greatly I want to see an old 501 pattern, or maybe a naked and famous draft. Speaking of naked and famous, a modern denim company, they keep their sideseam straight until the hip (or around there, from what I can tell) and then allow some to be taken in for the waist. So it is not totally necessary that 100% of the sideseam be selvedge, atleast according to naked and famous. I do say all of this before looking at those links you posted, so forgive me if anything I have said was incorrect.

[Gerry]

I do wonder where I heard that bringing the center line outwards allows for greater mobility for things like workwear, where one will be sitting, standing, crouching, etc.

Originally jeans were utilitarian, designed, as you say, as workwear; and Levis weren't in the business of creating fashion (not when they started), so their primitive, utilitarian cut was 'good enough' and easy to manufacture, no doubt. I don't think that the cut made the jeans any more comfortable, just that denim has some give over time, which makes them comfortable once 'worn in'. Adding sufficient amounts of ease also makes a garment more comfortable/functional (whilst retaining a better look/balance). An extreme example being jodhpurs, as they were originally cut prior to the invention of stretch fabrics: i.e. ballooning from the hip down to a tight fit at the knee and below. That makes for a comfortable fit when riding horses/invading Poland.

A lot of men, particularly when young, are fairly straight over the hips, so the straight edge approach sort of works. That doesn't make trousers cut that way a good fit, though. If you refresh the page to take a look at the demonstration photo/icon used for that video I linked to (before clicking on it), you can see just how skewed the crease line is. Not exactly a good advert IMO. I only linked to it to demonstrate how this method works in practice (I certainly wouldn't recommend copying it).

Speaking of naked and famous, a modern denim company, they keep their sideseam straight until the hip (or around there, from what I can tell) and then allow some to be taken in for the waist. So it is not totally necessary that 100% of the sideseam be selvedge, atleast according to naked and famous. I do say all of this before looking at those links you posted, so forgive me if anything I have said was incorrect.

Paul Kruize mentions this in his interview; and it's demonstrated in the video.

Incidentally, 'twisted seam' trousers are now the de riguer fashion item. In some cases it's clearly a design decision, as the seams are radically altered. In others, it appears to be a matter of art imitating crap ... or crap sold as art.

[Hendrick]

Hello all,

The sideseam of the "original"Levis jeans are near straight. It was not a fitting issue, however; denim was woven on narrow looms (38") and to save fabric the jeans were cut sideseam at selvedge. Hence the name "selvedge jeans". So indeed, they were cut as "open"as possible...

[DOG SALT]

I checked out those resources you posted, Gerry. It's good to know that drafting with a straight side seam is possible, and wont result in a garment that doesn't fit at all. If its good enough for Kruize, then its probably a viable method. Obviously not for dress pants though.

Hendrick, I assume when you say the original 501's were cut with a straight side seam, you are saying the pattern is drafted with the knee and hem measures applied to the side seam inwards, rather than centered on the center line, like in the examples Gerry provided. How can you be certain of this? Not to question your authority on the matter, but I wonder where you draw this conclusion from.

[TTailor]

There are tons of historical reference of breeches and trousers being cut with a straight side seam like jeans are. Breeches from the time of their development through the 17th-20th centuries. Trousers from the time of their development up until there became differentiation between work trousers and dress trousers.

Levis were work pants and just following the pattern standards of the time.

[Hendrick]

Hi,simple check; the red listing in the selvedge of jeans like 501 and "big e" forms the side seam of the trouser... Regarding the "open-ness" of the draft; jeans, breeches, pantaloons and dungarees originate from long before the autombile. The horse was the nr 1 means of personal transport so a little openness was probably more than welcome, especially for larger seats.