Author Topic: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...  (Read 936 times)

Dunc

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Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« on: December 12, 2018, 11:07:16 PM »
I've recently discovered a very interesting and unusual (to me, anyway) style of one-piece shirt collar via some posts by Hwa Seng Textiles (of Singapore) on Instagram. This is not the usual one piece collar where the collar and stand are a single piece, but one in which the collar is "grown on" to the shirt fronts, with no neck seam at all, and where the top collar continues at least some way down into the inside of the front edge:

. However, those examples differ from the HST ones in that the undercollar is not cut on to the fronts, but is cut separately and has a neck seam on the outside.

I've now spent some time trying to understand how this sort of collar is constructed, but I'm afraid I'm still struggling a bit... I've seen some indication that it doesn't feature any interfacing, but I'm not sure that I believe it, and I'm not at all clear as to how the top collar blends into the fronts. I think I understand how the undercollar is cut on to the fronts, but it raises some questions as to how the collar interacts with the yoke seams and the back neck seam...

Does anybody here know anything about it?

Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 11:25:54 PM »
Oh, great - the first Instagram link has turned into an embed that covers most of the text of my post... I'll see if I can figure out how to fix that. In the meantime, the missing text is:

Some digging around the internet shows that this style of collar is also known as a California, Cooper, or Ludo collar (because nothing in shirtmaking can ever have one name). I have found a couple of other examples, including a photo of the inside of the collar, such as here: https://www.deoveritas.com/blog/one-piece-collar/. However, those examples differ from the HST ones in that the undercollar is not cut on to the fronts, but is cut separately and has a neck seam on the outside.

(There were also a number of other Instagram links...)

It seems that "Ludo" may be a typo that's been copied between multiple sources, and it should in fact be "Lido", which would make rather more sense.

Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 11:33:07 PM »
No, apparently I can't figure out how to stop the Instagram links from turning into embeds... That's somewhat annoying, as there are a number of useful links I wanted to include. I wonder what happens if I add them each to their own post?


Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 11:34:24 PM »
OK, that seems to work better. Apologies for the multiple posts and the large embeds...

Top collar pattern:


Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2018, 11:35:19 PM »
Front pattern manipulation:


Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 11:37:16 PM »
Another shot of the front pattern manipulation:


spookietoo

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 11:52:24 PM »
Very interesting! Many womens' styles are cut on but I've never seen this in a mans'shirt.

Looks very  8) cool!

TTailor

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2018, 12:44:22 AM »
I have done a variation on this collar that incorporates a dart at the neck point. The design was for more of a stand up collar rather than button down.
I will make a drawing

Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2018, 01:31:58 AM »
Thanks Terri, that's interesting.

Can you give me any insight into the construction process? Obviously the undercollar has a seam at the CB, but I'm curious as to how the neck edge of the undercollar is sewn to the yoke - is it sewn between the inner and outer yoke pieces at the same time as the shoulder seams?

Henry Hall

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2018, 04:55:25 AM »
There were a lot of short-sleeved sports shirts made with collars like this in the '50s and '60s. I always thought of them as a version of a camp collar. I wasn't quite sure how they were made, but from Terri's drawing I can see how. Another version I've seen (and which I have on a 1960s shirt with patch pockets) is made with a regular attached under-collar and a complete top-collar/facing.
‘Being perfectly well-dressed gives one a tranquillity that no religion can bestow.’ - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 09:06:56 PM »
Like many things, it seems to have gone in and out of fashion a couple of times... The inimitable Nick Foulkes discusses its (supposed) origins in 1920s Venice here.

TTailor

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2018, 12:57:46 AM »
Thanks Terri, that's interesting.

Can you give me any insight into the construction process? Obviously the undercollar has a seam at the CB, but I'm curious as to how the neck edge of the undercollar is sewn to the yoke - is it sewn between the inner and outer yoke pieces at the same time as the shoulder seams?

Often this style (which is a variant on the camp shirt form) doesn't have a yoke, or a back neck facing, but it could if you wanted.
Interfacing: interface the fronts and collar, using a sewn-in interfacing usually. If you use fusible, the fusible will be on the public side of the fronts but on the undercollar of the collar.

Without a yoke, you would sew the shoulders first then sew the centre back seam of the undercollar, then sew the dart/ neckseam.

 The top collar/ facing can have a cb seam or a seam in the facing below the break line if you want a seamless look at CB. The long edge of the facing needs to have a finished edge of some sort.

So, the facing/top collar is sewn to the outer edge, turned, and it will need to be clipped at the neck point to allow the seam allowance of the top collar to turn inside the colar and be slip stitched to the neckline, and the top edge of the facing can be turned and caught to the seam allowances of the shoulder.

If you put in a yoke, you could sew the yoke as usual and proceed stitching through both layers of the yoke at the back neck, following the same finishing as above.
Or sew the outer yoke to the back, leave the inner yoke piece unattached at the neck and shoulder then sew the collar as above, but let the seam allowances of the facing get encased between the yoke layers.

If you choose a back neck facing, you can lay it in flat at first and sew through both layers along the back neck and finish as in the first example, or sew the back neck facing to the front facing at the shoulder, (be sure of the clip point position at the shoulder point) clip the front facing at the shoulder point and sew the back neck facing to the top collar neckline and attach everything later along the back neck seam .

Whew! Thats a lot of thinking on one cup of coffee.

Generally speaking there are many ways to accomplish the sewing, none are wrong you get to choose which one works best for your needs.

Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 01:13:12 AM »
Thanks very much Terri, that's very thorough and informative. I really appreciate it :)

I can see that I'll need to make a number of samples to experiment with this...

peterle

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2018, 04:06:06 AM »
Here is an approach to  construct the pattern and avoid the visible neckhole seam by cutting the undercollar in a specific way:









Of course your collar pattern will look different, but it will be the same principle of construction. Obey the broken double line in the scetch. It shows where to cut the undercollar as a separate piece. This trick will allow you to cut the undercollar without neckline seam but also cares for a well fitting collar. (I´m sure it will fit better than the tailor´s pattern manipulation you posted)




Dunc

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Re: Unusual one-piece shirt collar...
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2018, 09:40:27 PM »
Thanks peterle, that's also very useful.  :)