Author Topic: new experiments with the neck pattern  (Read 334 times)

posaune

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new experiments with the neck pattern
« on: August 15, 2018, 09:17:15 PM »
A friend of me and me, we are experimenting with pattern construction. The goal is that you can give in measurements into computer and will get a pattern (nothing new) . BUT in our version you can give in your personal body variations, lets say par. ex. rounded back and you will get a balanced pattern for your posture. We know we are limited here, but we do it mostly for the fun it is.
Now we came to problem: the neck. The fit of the  neck is in ladies cutting very important. The garment hangs from shoulder and neck. If the neck is not right nothing is right.
So we have gone through many calculations in the systems for neck. Not very successfull.
I have never ever thought about how different neck calculations can be. Now we have done a simple draft program to test your neck before you start drawing the pattern. we are testing all our friends and selftesting my own neck. I give you the pattern, black is the first try (neck circ 41,  a bit tight) and green (neck circ 42 and front diameter enlarged + 0.5 cm) is next. Note that the front neckhole is smaller than the back.
Anyone with experience concerning a neck draft out here?

lg
posaune

TTailor

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2018, 11:30:42 PM »
I have tried a few different calculations myself.
I dont have my drafts here with me, but I tested a calculation for men's shirt neckline that seemed to give good results.
Maybe later today or tomorrow i will have my books home, and I will post them.

Is there a reason the front neckhole is smaller than the back?

Also,
I was trying out the ladies rundshau jacket draft from the old Cutter and
Tailor site and I was surprised that the back neck width calculation was so small. 1/10 half bust plus 2cm. Which for the draft of bust 100 is 7cm. That seemed ok for a bodice/ blouse but small for a jacket.
Most other drafting methods would make it 7.5 cm (or a bit more) for a bodice of that bust size.

Perhaps it is a better rule to use a calculation based on the neck rather than the bust since the two are not always in proportion to each other.

posaune

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2018, 05:40:10 AM »
you wrote it, Terry!! A big busted woman has mostly the same neck size as a smaller busted woman (just the bust bigger). We tried to derive it from the neck circ or the bust circ and we found a formula. But nevertheless, it will not work with me. M front neck hole has a smaller width then the back neck hole. Because- I think- my neck goes into front (case of  rounded back (but not only this). So the back muscles of my neck have much work to do to hold the head up (so the muscle and sinew may have dveloped more than average)  and my back neck is wider maybe as the back width ist wider than Bust width (respectivially). This would be an explaination for begone times.

Rundschau does a basic pattern. They use it every time.  They add ease in different places for either syles. I'm quite sure (not looking into a book) that the custom jacket, gets about 0.5 to 0.8 more "ease"at back neck hole. So the collar + roll width can settle most easily
lg
posaune
I have to sleep over this

hutch--

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2018, 08:47:12 AM »
Every big busted lady I ever knew has problems like aching backs, still necks and heavy grooves in their shoulders from the bra straps.
The magnificent tools of the professional tailor
http://www.movsd.com/tailors_shears/  ;) ;D

peterle

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2018, 10:16:17 PM »
Ever heard of the Lenassi method? He was also from Bavaria (Konstanz) and developed a very sophisticated system with a lot of unusual measurements taken with a calipher. He takes a totally different approach by constructing all points with a pair of compasses. To get an idea:
 back:



Front:



Needed measurements


Another approach using the neck measure is used by the "Einheitssystem" for a manīs loange coat: You take the neck measure+1 as construction base. Back neck is 1/6 of it +1,5cm. Back neck heigth is 2,5cm. Front neck will be back neck+1cm in both directions. There is also a womenīs version of the Einheitssystem wich I donīt own.

posaune

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 05:31:38 AM »
Peterle, I'm an absolute fan of Lenassi. It is marvellous how he approached pattern making.
He has done what I call the orthopaedic way means every bird will get its feathers.
Now his method depends on his little device. I have had it rebuilt. But mine is a bit large!! not very usable.
A system is as good as many people can get good and valid measurements. As you have seen in our shirt avdenture (on Cutter and Tailor) you can not stress it enough how "right" measurements are done. If you master Lenassie, you'll get good patterns, because in my humble opinion he determines how the front pattern is in ??? (no englisch word) Bezug to the back pattern. So every figure abbreviation are dealt with because balance is done automatically.
It is a pity that his method did go down the drain.
I sew my pattern from yesterday (green) and I come up after pining with just another pattern (red). It was more to my taste. But taste is nothing which is counting here. I ended up with the another shoulder angle (back and  front different) The width was the same front and back but the circ was 2 cm more. I have to sew a "grundschnitt" ( a bit ease) or "futtertaille" (no ease to speak off) to test it with the rest pattern. Maybe I can go at front neck  a bit up??? (hope?!)
lg
Posaune
 



peterle

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 06:33:10 AM »
Itīs a pity I just have a few scanned pages of the Lenassi method. Itīs quite fascinating how different his approach is involving all those through measures. This system is defenitely very useful to produce an individual pattern for a single body. Maybe thatīs the reason for not being developed further, because the industry needs one pattern for all these body types out there.

My problem with the usual neck hole construction is, that the applied neck measure (Halsspiegel) is only right with the specific shoulder seam point position. So when your customerīs shoulder peak is on a different spot then foreseen by the pattern, the neck measure isnīt right anymore.

TTailor

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 06:40:05 AM »
I dug out my book and I was experimenting last year with this formula which seemed to be good on the few people (men) I tried it. This was for my draft for men's shirt.

Back neck width 1/5 neck circumference minus 1 cm. Square up 2cm and draw in curve.
Front neck width 1/5 neck circumference minus .5 cm
Front neck depth 1/5 neck plus 1 cm
draw in the front curve.

I am interested in what was posted by Lenassi! Rainy day reading material.

posaune

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 07:24:46 AM »
For Lenassi You look here
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=692&hl=lenassi
pfaff260 has done some scanning.
lg
posaune

Greger

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 02:36:19 PM »
Grandad said, as well as others, the neck/shoulder point is the key to the pattern.

pfaff260

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2018, 03:41:17 PM »
This is how the device is used.
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=255.msg1264#msg1264
A lovely little jacket draw almost the same way as Lenassi
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=256.msg1267#msg1267


spookietoo

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2018, 04:32:01 AM »
I've been taking a break from all of this.....concentrating on my house, but I'm coming back as I've given my frustration level time to ease up.

My last round of shirtmaking was irritating- largely due to neck and shoulders. Knowing all of you find it a bit perplexing is quite calming for me. (I feel like less of an idiot now!)

How did I sleep thru geometry and make A+'s and yet find this all so difficult?

And then I have 40+ years of other drafting experience on top of it all.

Well, down 25 pounds, 1" less in bust, 2"less in hips. Hopefully this will help.

Thank you all for being here!

Schneiderfrei

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 09:43:05 AM »
 :)

Greger

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Re: new experiments with the neck pattern
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2018, 04:09:36 AM »
So many variables with the human body.