Author Topic: A Close-Fitting Sloper  (Read 85152 times)

Schneiderfrei

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2016, 02:23:32 PM »
I don't believe I have seen any concrete definition of balance. 

But balance is an aesthetic proportion that affects the eye. Some elements of balance are so critical as to be totally essential. 

The best place to read about this is King-Wilson.  He has defined major and minor balance for his own purposes but I expect every single tailor would agree with his principals

It must actually exist in every part of a garment - including fashion elements. But here we are dealing with the fundamental structure of the bodice.

Next is everything else. :)

Greger

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2016, 02:32:17 PM »
The block you are working on is it for a variety of shirt styles? When you mentioned darts I thought you were after a coat block. You know Jim, the first tailor didn't learn from a book. Hope your shirt block turns out well.

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2016, 11:09:50 PM »
Quote
The block you are working on is it for a variety of shirt styles? When you mentioned darts I thought you were after a coat block.

The book I'm using (see post #1) calls this a "close-fitting torso sloper".  It can be used for a variety of shirt styles.  With front and back darts, and some minor changes to the side seam, it becomes a close-fitting shirt.  That's my short-term goal.

The authors also show how to manipulate the sloper to draft other garments, including vests, casual jackets and suit jackets.  If you don't want a close-fitting style they show how to add ease to make a "classic-fitting sloper".

In the long term, once the shirt works I'm looking forward to applying the author's methods to a vest and jacket.  I suspect it won't be as simple as they make it sound but it could be a route to a viable pattern.  If it doesn't work, the shirt exercise has at least given me clues as to changes I might need to make to a jacket draft.

Quote
You know Jim, the first tailor didn't learn from a book. Hope your shirt block turns out well.

Are there two users named "greger"?  The other one told me I could never have too many books, and chided me for not wanting to learn from books.  This one is telling me there are things which are not in the books.  Which the first one criticized me for saying! 

My friend, you are consistent only in your inconsistency :)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:33:16 AM by jruley »

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2016, 12:34:41 AM »
I've started a new thread on definitions and applications of balance measures here:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=248.0

So I hope we can get back to adjusting the toile.  What is the next change I should make?


peterle

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2016, 01:09:47 AM »
In the new pic set the toile seems to stand away from the body at the cf waistline. Is this right?

If so, open all but the uppest buttons and look what the center front lines want to do. Do they lap over? Do they gape?

Lapping over would suggest to lengthen the front balance a bit more.

Please mark the neckhole and clip that neckhole SAs as Posaune describes. Otherwise itīs hard to tell wether the neckhole or the SAs cause that pulling.

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2016, 02:18:57 AM »
Here it is.  Wants to gape open, but just a little.

Can you see the neck seam now?













peterle

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2016, 02:02:03 AM »
Thanks for marking the neckhole. The neckhole lines sits on the right spot I think. and clipping the SAs did help es well. The left shoulder (the not dropping one) looks very good from the front.

The gaping fronts would indicate a too long front balance. BUT: I think the edges pull open because the hip is too tight. Does the sloper cling to the hips? The pic shows the button hole side is strictly vertical and the button side is pulled towards the hip. So open the right sideseam from hem to somwhere between waist and chestline and see what happens.
This will probably also change the diagonal fold at the right back to a vertical fold.

The back:  the chestline is yet bowing upwards in the middle. A bit of it is caused by a now too short back balance appr. 1cm.

So doing the things Posaune said in post 62 will help.

Somthing I donīt understand: Looking at the back picture I measure across the back from armhole seam to armhole seam (cabinet knob height). CB to left armhole is 6,1cm CB to right armhole is 6,6cm. Is this just an illusion?

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2016, 02:15:06 AM »

Somthing I donīt understand: Looking at the back picture I measure across the back from armhole seam to armhole seam (cabinet knob height). CB to left armhole is 6,1cm CB to right armhole is 6,6cm. Is this just an illusion?


I checked the upper backs at several levels and they are the same width.  So I'm probably just not standing perfectly square to the camera.

Other alterations pending....

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2016, 03:59:44 AM »
Here it is with the 3/8" (1 cm) wedge in the back, and the right side seam free from about 3" below the chest line.  These were taken unbuttoned except at the top.  I have buttoned ones too but it hangs pretty much exactly the same.

The camera was a little tilted, I think one tripod leg was on the rug and one not.













Schneiderfrei

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2016, 09:29:06 AM »
I think it needs more. Maybe even as much as 2 cm.  The hem seems about that much shorter at the back than the front.

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2016, 10:26:42 AM »
I think it needs more. Maybe even as much as 2 cm.  The hem seems about that much shorter at the back than the front.

I think some of that may go away once the side and back seams are tweaked to remove excess width in the back.  But it might need more between the chest and waist lines.  We shall see what the experts say.

What interests me is that with the right side seam out, the folds look nearly symmetrical.  So what does that say about the dropped shoulder correction?

Schneiderfrei

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2016, 02:37:33 PM »
From the front view, it is clear that the shoulders and the hips do not line up.  The shoulders are displaced to the left.  This is a fixed postural change and is in fact termed a scoliosis. You could see that by tracing the front image and measuring like this:


The entire left trunk profile is completely straight.  The right trunk profile exhibits a strong curve.

It s clear that the arms are resting lightly against the sides.

What is not known to me is what appropriate pattern adjustment would be made here.  You wouldn’t want the CF to slope diagonally?  Do you make changes that are the same as a dropped right shoulder?  I feel I would want to remove some cloth from the right chest in a lateral way.  Maybe this is a problem of lateral balance?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 01:59:13 AM by Schneiderfrei »

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2016, 12:29:00 AM »
I think I have reached a fork in the road at this point.

Posaune (see the yoke thread) thinks the shoulder dart is mislocated and belongs nearer the neck.  I think this might help with the folds in the back shoulder, but in any case it will make the back behave differently, with possble unforeseen consequences.

We also have a couple of iteration's worth of strips and wedges, which may not have been sewn precisely.  We have gussets in the sleeve seam and the cap needs to be reshaped to correspond with the new armhole shape from the balance changes.

So:  Rather than just change the upper back, is it time to collect all these changes, redraft the pattern and make a whole new toile?

And, since the fitted shirt will have front and back darts, is it time to incorporate them as well?

EDIT:  After a little more thought, I can test both posaune's relocation of the dart and my yoke idea by -- recutting the existing back and adding a yoke!  And take the results of that step into the next draft.

I'm still wondering about the effect that vertical darts in the front and back, from the chest line to hip level, might have on the balance.  Opinions?

Thanks,

Jim

posaune

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2016, 02:04:40 AM »
Your muslin is by far not dead yet. Rip out the sleeves. Sew a strip from waist to hem and close the right side.(You have measured before how much it gapes)  The right side is wider now. It can be that you have to take away at left side. And pin out at right shoulder seam maybe 1.5 cm taper to nothing at neck.
Then we have done something for asymmetric - it is not all but will do.
After this you can try to take out at back.
Take out at hem on each side - start with 1 cm fold going up. Place of the fold: 2/3 at waist from CB. Go straight up to where you have cut for the wedge. Open from armhole the seam a bit and sew that fold. Shut the wedge again . And you have later to true the back armhole. This will make the back smaller.
If it is a success repeat if necessary. If it is to much for the back widtn but not for the lower body begin to taper from waist up.
lg
posaune

vertical darts do nothing for the vertical balance

jruley

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Re: A Close-Fitting Sloper
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2016, 02:50:10 AM »
OK, let's go a-yoking.  And hope we're not just joking...

Here is a copy of the upper back with the shoulder dart removed.  The original cut lines are indicated by dashes.



The cut is relocated near the actual prominence of my shoulder blades.  Then the pieces are arranged for a shoulder dart, adding 3/8" length along the blades:



Here is the resulting dart.  I copied this to keep in case it is needed later.  For a jacket, I might be able to ease in this amount of length in some materials.



Now the pieces are arranged to make the dart in the scye:



Here is the resulting dart.  Rather than cut like this, it is easy to extend the line across the back and make a separate yoke.



Here is the back cut down (with seam added) and the separate yoke piece.



Going through the old pattern pieces I also found I had added seam allowance twice to the sides of the back.  This will be corrected when the mockup is reassembled.  Since it looks like the right side needs more material, I will just set the seam over and leave the extra width as inlay.

I will make this change, and post results before beginning to work on the asymmetry.  I want to see what it does to the shoulders.