Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Apprentices => Drafting, Fitting and Construction => Topic started by: jruley on August 11, 2016, 12:04:35 PM

Title: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 11, 2016, 12:04:35 PM
"Patternmaking for Menswear" by M&I Kim has a chapter on what the authors call "casual jackets".  These include styles like high school athletic jackets and windbreakers.  The suggested method is to grade up the shirt sloper (close-fitting or "classic fit" as desired) in size, and draft new sleeves to fit the enlarged armhole.  The recommended sleeve style has a higher crown than their shirt sleeve, but not as high as a suit jacket sleeve.

I applied this technique to my classic fit shirt sloper.  The result is shown here in a rather stiff cotton drill.  I've gone a couple of steps further and added a "convertible" collar, and pinned out a total of 3 inches at waist level at center back and the two side seams.

I'm thinking of working this up into a waist-length denim jacket for casual wear and outside work.  The sleeves will need either gussets or some kind of action back treatment to provide much freedom of movement.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsss0emqwx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zps5ln2ixdk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsfizikbu2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zpssitokcrq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsszqkkvkx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsfypxs1rc.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on August 11, 2016, 09:06:33 PM
Someone is going to mention the front length and the balance, so it might as well be me. The sleeves look very roomy, though I suppose a jacket like this would go over layers of clothing?

I see you have a photo backdrop, like the pro photographers!
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Schneiderfrei on August 11, 2016, 09:34:17 PM
The back drop is cool.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 11, 2016, 10:21:38 PM
Someone is going to mention the front length and the balance, so it might as well be me. The sleeves look very roomy, though I suppose a jacket like this would go over layers of clothing?

Front length will obviously need to be adjusted.  The balance doesn't seem much different from my shirts, though I'm open to suggestions.

Yes, the sleeves are roomy enough to go over a shirt, not just the T-shirt worn in the photo.

Quote
I see you have a photo backdrop, like the pro photographers!

Yes, I just got the backdrop and a lighting kit with reflective umbrellas.  Not just for this - I've been asked (drafted) to take some photos for a relative's anniversary celebration.  I thought I might as well get some experience with the setup beforehand...
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: posaune on August 12, 2016, 12:06:31 AM
I would shorten the back. Open the sleeve seam a bit in back and pin out 1.5 cm straight across whole back at center back armhole. (The shoulder seam is now near the back head.  It should sit somewhere near the ears.) And lets have a new look.
lg
posaune
I suggest again: open the shoulder and let someone pin it.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 12, 2016, 01:07:30 AM
The front is defenitely too short relatively to the back. The hem should be horizontal.

It would be wise to make the fittings wearing the garments underneath for what it is meant for. Like Posaune writes, it looks like your back balance is too long but maybe wearing a sweater underneath will change this impression.

An outer garment not only needs more width, it also needs a longer front and back balance, because it has to cover the garments worn underneath. Does your pattern instructions regard this aspect? ( the outer garment will stand away at back and front  hem otherwise)

The garment should also cover a shirt collar or a turtle neck, therefore the neckhole and collar have to be wider as well.

Does the center front touch your belly? It looks  more like standing away.


Will you have a  center back seam and a yoke in your jacket?

Maybe you should consider a belly dart. A less stiff fabric will collaps from the belly downwards and form ugly "bell creases" and cause a wavy hem. It is not allowed in shirt patterns, but there is no reason  to avoid one a jacket pattern.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Greger on August 12, 2016, 02:52:52 AM
A suggestion would be to start with adding a wedge at front shoulder seam.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 12, 2016, 04:17:58 AM
The front is defenitely too short relatively to the back. The hem should be horizontal.

It would be wise to make the fittings wearing the garments underneath for what it is meant for. Like Posaune writes, it looks like your back balance is too long but maybe wearing a sweater underneath will change this impression.

OK, I will try that and maybe pinning out some back length as posaune suggested.

Quote
An outer garment not only needs more width, it also needs a longer front and back balance, because it has to cover the garments worn underneath. Does your pattern instructions regard this aspect?

Yes, this appears accounted for.  The chest line is extended 1/2" at the side seams and lowered 3/4".

Quote
The garment should also cover a shirt collar or a turtle neck, therefore the neckhole and collar have to be wider as well.

Yes, the neckhole radius is increased 1/8", which makes the collar band about 3/4" longer.

Quote
Does the center front touch your belly? It looks  more like standing away.

I think it did before I put the pin at CB; will have to verify.

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Will you have a  center back seam and a yoke in your jacket?

Yes.  I thought I would stick with the yoked style for this casual garment, and not return to shoulder darts until I am ready to make a suit jacket.

Quote
Maybe you should consider a belly dart. A less stiff fabric will collaps from the belly downwards and form ugly "bell creases" and cause a wavy hem. It is not allowed in shirt patterns, but there is no reason  to avoid one a jacket pattern.

Do you mean like the "Donlon wedge" that is taken out of corpulent suit jacket and vest drafts at the side pocket?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 12, 2016, 09:22:47 AM
Waist suppression at sides and back has been removed.

Here is 3/4" pinned out across the back at center back armhole.  I think it helped the balance a little, but it pulls the collar away from the back of the neck.  And the shoulder seam is even further back:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsruj9wljq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zpsjoxymq7j.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsjuxnh7pf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zpsywpqvqye.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsewkjd2nl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpscws2d8nh.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 12, 2016, 09:28:01 AM
So, the next idea is to add a wedge at the front chest line.  This tapers from 3/4" at CF to nothing at the side seams.  I think this works better:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpstamwutpr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zpsl7yvrcap.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpswrlqlld8.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zps0quvjjyi.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsum4orldc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsk0daqf9t.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 12, 2016, 09:32:54 AM
The next set is same as previous, except 1/2" is pinned out of the back seam at waist.

BTW all of these were taken with the jacket worn over a heavy sweater to account for other layers of clothing.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zps77ursrvw.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zpszafsl6cq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsq7zchfsm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zps19jgq3hq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsfqjqkdfy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsy94e93lp.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: posaune on August 12, 2016, 08:11:29 PM
I see.
The shoulder seam is now more 3-4 cm in back where it is supposed to sit (when pinning out in back).  Even with this wedge you must open the front 3 cm more to be level.  That is too much in my opinion.
Even with the wedge the shoulder seam is maybe 2 cm behind where it should sit - I would now try the other way and make the back longer. Maybe it is pulling the front up.
Sounds funny I know.
posaune



 
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 12, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
 nipping in the waist of  a jacket at the center back is not the best idea. it is not the right spot. back darts would be better. As you can see in the profil pics, the pinning causes the forming of an ugly "tail".

the collar at the back seems to stand away in the later pics also, so I think itīs not caused  by the shorter back balance but by the sweater worn underneath.

The front yet seems to stand away. You could try to enlarge the wedge a bit more and /or can increase the front balance by adding a uniform strip of fabric across the chest. this should release the lower part of the front and allow it to move  a bit nearer to the body. I think the sweater underneath shows the back and front balance is not long enough. At the back the collar stands away and at the front there are some diagonal folds from the chest towards the side seams. These werenīt there without the sweater.

A Donlon wedge is a hidden manipulated dart, a bit too complicated to install. For the toile it would be easier to install the dart vertically just by pinning. But that should be done after the balance alterations.

Remember a jacket pattern doesnīt necessarily have to have a straight center front like a shirt.So a bit of forming can be done at the center front.

This post was written before Posaunes last one, but we seam to share the same opinion.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 12, 2016, 10:44:11 PM
Making both the the front AND back balances longer (which is what posaune seems to be recommending) would only drop the armscye level, not change the shape of the garment.  Correct?

I wonder if something else is going on.  Way back in the sloper development, we made the back wider and front narrower, but did not change the location of the side seam.  As a result it is not quite in the center of the armhole.  The shoulder seam end is in the same plane as the side seam, so this has pulled the shoulder seam back as well. 

Seams in principle can be located anywhere, but the armhole and sleeve drafts in particular assume that the side seam and shoulder seam will be in the middle of the scye.  If this is not the case is it throwing things off?  The front armhole length is greater than the back; the book they should be equal or the back greater.

I'm wondering if I should relocate these seams before making more balance adjustments?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on August 13, 2016, 01:04:25 AM
Add your length below the armhole/above the waist and again below the waist to hem. There's no need to let it affect the armhole.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 13, 2016, 04:33:32 AM
Add your length below the armhole/above the waist and again below the waist to hem. There's no need to let it affect the armhole.

Length added/removed below the chest line will not affect the balance.  It will only move the hem line up or down.

What I think I might try next is:

- Letting out the back yoke seam 1/4"  (1/2" total added length).  This will hopefully bring the collar closer to the back neck, and the shoulder seam closer to the middle of the shoulder.  Of course, this assumes it will push the front forward and not the back down.

- Adding a second front wedge at the waist line.  This will give more length on the CF line and keep the front closer below the waist.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on August 13, 2016, 04:43:58 AM
Of course it will correct the balance. The front will be longer.  The top doesn't need to be lengthened.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 13, 2016, 07:17:45 AM
Of course it will correct the balance. The front will be longer.  The top doesn't need to be lengthened.

I guess we are tripping over the definition.  I don't view merely changing the overall length of front or back as altering the balance.  This is a matter of taste or style, not the fundamental shape and fit of the garment.

To me "balance" is the relative length of the front and back, expressed to some common level such as the chest line.  This affects the way the garment fits around the neck and shoulders.

I'm aware that different authors use different definitions.  So maybe I'm talking about the major vertical balance and you the minor?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 13, 2016, 11:47:30 AM
Here's some more work with the body.  This is the finished length desired, just enough to cover my trouser waistband.  This new toile has the front wedge and back waist nip from post #10; no other balance changes have been tried at this point.

Apart from the length, the main reason for this new toile was to check a method for drafting a pleated "bi-swing back" which will give additional range of motion to the arms.  Of course that won't be tested until sleeves are added:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsh5mgyjei.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsdawr5bnv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpshxceindr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpswvpz2pje.jpg)

Not bad, but it still wants to stand off the belly.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 13, 2016, 11:48:39 AM
Now I have pinned out 1/2" at the side seams.  This helps the fit at tha waist, but it's still a little loose at CF hem:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsfzkz9qrf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpshbvyrm8j.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpswwxrqbdk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsu9ihnvtl.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 13, 2016, 11:49:55 AM
And now I've pinned out peterle's belly dart.  This seems to do the job!

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsbq8zt6aj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsdztvw093.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zps2e8jm8qt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zps3keitzwz.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 13, 2016, 07:06:41 PM
Pinning the sides seams increases the folds between front armhole and belly. Try to take out less at the side seam  and take a bit more at the belly dart.

But Iīm sure the front balance must get longer. in post 18 you can see the "shooting forward" of the fronts starts at the chest line. This indicates the front balance is too short. lengthening the balance will probably also help to get the center back neck point back to itīs intended spot. The hole neck and shoulder area seems to be rotated back/downwards.

The golf back looks nice.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 13, 2016, 11:37:23 PM

Iīm sure the front balance must get longer. in post 18 you can see the "shooting forward" of the fronts starts at the chest line. This indicates the front balance is too short. lengthening the balance will probably also help to get the center back neck point back to itīs intended spot. The hole neck and shoulder area seems to be rotated back/downwards.


Lengthening the front balance should have a similar effect to shortening the back balance.  We tried that in post #8.  It pulled the collar further away from the back neck and rotated the neck/shoulder area further back.

A second wedge (above the chest line) might help.  But the easiest thing to try next is letting out the back yoke seam.

I will also try pinning out more at the belly, and less at the sides.

Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 14, 2016, 12:19:32 AM

Iīm sure the front balance must get longer. in post 18 you can see the "shooting forward" of the fronts starts at the chest line. This indicates the front balance is too short. lengthening the balance will probably also help to get the center back neck point back to itīs intended spot. The hole neck and shoulder area seems to be rotated back/downwards.


Lengthening the front balance should have a similar effect to shortening the back balance.  We tried that in post #8.  It pulled the collar further away from the back neck and rotated the neck/shoulder area further back.


No. This would be true only when the armhole is deep enough. Shortening the back balance also makes the armhole smaller, lengthening the front makes it bigger. I think the sweater  sleeves pull and rotate the jacket because  they try to accomodate in a too small armhole. Shortening the back balance increased this issue. To lengthen he front balance, you could also let out the front yoke seam a bit.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 14, 2016, 12:55:17 AM

I think the sweater  sleeves pull and rotate the jacket because  they try to accomodate in a too small armhole. Shortening the back balance increased this issue.


I don't think so - the scyes are pretty deep and I haven't noticed any pulling or binding.

I've adjusted the front and side darts, and I think it definitely looks better with more taken out at front as you suggested.  Have also let out the back yoke seam, and I think it helped a little.

You will have to wait awhile for photos, as everything is packed up for another project...
 
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 14, 2016, 12:57:37 AM
nipping in the waist of  a jacket at the center back is not the best idea. it is not the right spot. back darts would be better. As you can see in the profil pics, the pinning causes the forming of an ugly "tail".


I see your point, but don't most suit jackets have a shaped back seam?  Is this just by convention if there is no benefit?  Or is it only a little, with most of the suppression taken from the side panel seams (essentially back darts)?

Of course the tail is no issue for my waist length jacket, since I cut it off :)...

Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 14, 2016, 01:25:55 AM
nipping in the waist of  a jacket at the center back is not the best idea. it is not the right spot. back darts would be better. As you can see in the profil pics, the pinning causes the forming of an ugly "tail".


I see your point, but don't most suit jackets have a shaped back seam?  Is this just by convention if there is no benefit?  Or is it only a little, with most of the suppression taken from the side panel seams (essentially back darts)?

Of course the tail is no issue for my waist length jacket, since I cut it off :)...



A lounge coat pattern seems to have a shaped center back seam, but it hardly is. The back seam is just slanted wich is the result of a hidden wedge across the upper back to bring more length over the shoulder blades. When at all nipped for the waist itīs not more than 5mm at the waistline even in 70īs coats. waist nipping is mainly done in the rear side seams.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 15, 2016, 12:58:21 AM
Here's how it looks now.  Changes described in post #24:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsvslmo404.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsem1yxvuc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpswwdfq8pz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpssqwxtjoz.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 15, 2016, 07:26:26 AM
Back to the long version now, to try out peterle's suggestions of back and belly darts.  No changes in balance from post #10:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpshsmls0wt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zpsgqkchrik.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpszuryhfkl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zpsgdmkwzg5.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsgrs01dq2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsvnenhped.jpg)

It definitely seems to shape up better.  Obviously the back darts should continue higher, and length is still needed at the CF hem. 
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Schneiderfrei on August 15, 2016, 09:44:50 AM
Posaune, when you say to add length to the back, do you mean maybe, to add from the neck point?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 15, 2016, 09:39:49 PM
 Youīve been busy I see.
To proceed I have some questions:

What kind of jacket is to be targeted?

What do you want to achieve with the back darts? Do you want  to get the hem nearer to the body or do you want to nip the waist for a slimmer line? These tasks demand different approaches.

The darts at the front are chest darts meanwhile. The darts I was thinking of just were to get rid of a wavy hem in the case a corrected/ increased front balance isnīt enough to remove it. The intended darts would hardly reach the waistline.

 With a chest dart, you add some length and width for the chest (good thing), but you donīt change the relative position of front and back.  you have to shift the front upwards in the side seams to get everything right. It would have been much easier to insert a strip of fabric across the chest and deal with the superfluous resulting length at the armhole.


Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 15, 2016, 11:43:03 PM

What kind of jacket is to be targeted?

What do you want to achieve with the back darts? Do you want  to get the hem nearer to the body or do you want to nip the waist for a slimmer line? These tasks demand different approaches.


Good points.  I don't have a specific style in mind; I just wanted to try this and see what would happen.

So, let's go back to the latest changes to the short version (post #27).  The front darts have become chest darts here as well.  Do you think this will work or is more front length still needed?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 16, 2016, 01:38:03 AM
Well thatīs the cause I asked what kind of jacket is wanted.

The short one seems to be meant as a blouson? A blouson will not have front darts, the width would be eased in a (knitted) band. thatīs why these kind of jackets are a bit looser at the front of scye.

When youīr after a tight classical denim jacket, there would be plenty of  vertical seams to incorporate all the necessary darts for a skin tight fit.

Now you have added a lounge coat chest dart to a basically shirt pattern. This will not work because in a lounge coat pattern the angles between armhole, shoulder center front, side seam are totally different compared to a shirt. The dart alone doesnīt create length.

I would like you to unpin the front darts and shift the fronts upwards at the side seams for about 2cm. We can look then wich step to take next.



Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 16, 2016, 03:47:49 AM
The short one seems to be meant as a blouson? A blouson will not have front darts, the width would be eased in a (knitted) band. thatīs why these kind of jackets are a bit looser at the front of scye.

When youīr after a tight classical denim jacket, there would be plenty of  vertical seams to incorporate all the necessary darts for a skin tight fit.

The jacket will be made of denim, there will not be a knitted waistband or wrist bands.  Don't know where you got the blouson idea as I never mentioned it.
 
I would like it to be form fitting, but not skin tight.  There needs to be room to accomodate a heavy shirt and/or sweater.


Quote
I would like you to unpin the front darts and shift the fronts upwards at the side seams for about 2cm. We can look then wich step to take next.

Will do.  I will also put the yoke seam back to its former position.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 16, 2016, 04:41:03 AM
Here it is with the darts removed and the fronts raised 3/4" at side seams.  The yoke seam has been restored to where it was in post #20.  The only waist suppression is from the slanted CB seam which was incorporated in the shortened body pattern.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsosukikhc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpswnux0313.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpszkapydhr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsdkgqbbcm.jpg)

It seems to me that the shoulder seam line is too far back and the neck hole is out of position; too high in front and too low in back.  The garment also stands further off the waist in front than back.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 16, 2016, 05:05:22 AM
Just for comparison, here I have lowered the front 1/2" at the side seams (i.e. 1-1/4" below where it was in the last set).

This seems to fit much better around the neck and shoulders:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsolpu8or1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zps26nyillz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsqxfqsexg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpse4vhk1i3.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: theresa in tucson on August 16, 2016, 07:50:14 AM
J, will this short jacket be something like a classic Levi "cowboy" jacket?  If so, the Levi jacket is cut along princess (or prince since it is a guys jacket) lines and can be tailored for a close fit.  Check out the line drawings on some old KWIK SEW jackets.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on August 16, 2016, 08:27:18 AM
Such as the treatment given to the back in this draft: Chaudhry - Denim Jacket (http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=114.0)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 16, 2016, 09:43:49 AM
Such as the treatment given to the back in this draft: Chaudhry - Denim Jacket (http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=114.0)

Thanks Henry and Theresa.  I actually considered starting with that draft, but would have to adjust it for my dropped shoulder and scoliosis.  And anyway I wanted to see if the methods in the M&I Kim book for turning a shirt sloper into a casual jacket pattern really worked.

I like the overall length, waist belt, and sleeve of the Chaudhry draft, but I think the separate side panel is for slimmer people than me.  It will work in a suit jacket with a structured chest, but not something like this.

I'm thinking of shaping the front similar to this tailored version of an Eisenhower jacket (but without the military style pockets, epaulets, and lapels):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower_jacket#/media/File:Eisenhower_jacket_88122.jpg

I also like the golf or "bi-swing" back which was originally a feature of that garment.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 16, 2016, 09:36:53 PM
Youīr yoyoing the  back balance. I lose track.

Shortenig the back and lengthening the front will increase the difference more then intended. The intention was to lengthen the front balance compared to the back balance of #27 for about 2cm at least.  Taking #20 as starting point is a different story because itīs less unbalanced.


So it should be like the Eisenhower? This is basically a kind of blouson and has a band. The linked one has two darts at the front and is gathered to fit into the waistband. Itīs not really tight.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 16, 2016, 10:24:36 PM
Shortenig the back and lengthening the front will increase the difference more then intended. The intention was to lengthen the front balance compared to the back balance of #27 for about 2cm at least.  Taking #20 as starting point is a different story because itīs less unbalanced.

Please forget all previous versions, and take either #34 or #35 as the new starting point.  I think #35 fits better at the neck, but I'm starting to wonder if I really understand "balance" at all!

Quote
So it should be like the Eisenhower? This is basically a kind of blouson and has a band. The linked one has two darts at the front and is gathered to fit into the waistband. Itīs not really tight.

I don't care for the "gathered" look, so I want some kind of darts to shape the front.  The band might go all the way around, or only from the side seams back.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 17, 2016, 03:22:19 AM
While waiting for the master, I decided to fiddle with passing the back up and down some more to cover the full range of possibilities.  This is with the front chest line raised a full 2" relative to the back:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpssyib9qis.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zps2mywlkxx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsmn3p59if.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsl8hqxdnh.jpg)

And here, dropped 1" below (3" change from the last one):

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zps50psdzeg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsxbqq8ovh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsa1kkflk9.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zps1ioljr6a.jpg)

Of course neither of these is reasonable.  The first one pulls away from the neck in back; the second one climbs it in back and pulls away in front.

What these do show is that no reasonable amount of passing the back up and down will bring the chest and waist lines horizontal.  I think the main reason for the slant must be the backward tilt of my spine due to my "hips forward" stance. 

To bring these lines horizontal, I think it might be necessary to angle the CF line and side seam lines as shown in post #71 of this thread:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=189.60
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 17, 2016, 07:38:59 PM
The alterations of the link wonīt work. This works for garments that are collapsing at the chest and have a diagonal drag from the belly towards the upper back. Thatīs not the problem here. Weīve adapted the shirt pattern for this posture with a slanting CF.

I think the first alternative of #41 hangs a lot better than the second (neglecting the neckhole). The second alternative is distorted as you can see in the back folds (quite messy inside and gaping).



I donīt have a clue what causes the back to pull away, so we have to find out:

Suspect number 1:
How far up does your slanted back seam reach? Is it from the waist to the yoke seam? If yes, this dart would change the upper back area completely making it thighter at the armhole and roomy at the middle and shorter over the blades. It would get a lot rounder and would rotate in this position to compensate the tightness when allowed by a longer front balance. In this case this dart must be removed ( just insert a strip of fabric when there isnīt enough allowance). We can rid of the width later at a  far better spot.


Suspect number 2:  Less likely: the front armhole in not cut out in the longer front balance version. This could restrict the movement of the garment.


For diagnostic reasons it would be a good idea to baste the back fold close and pin the center back neck to the spot where it belongs.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 18, 2016, 03:42:57 AM
Weīve adapted the shirt pattern for this posture with a slanting CF.


All slant was removed from the CF line of the shirt pattern after post #170 of the sloper thread:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=238.165

I didn't show the pattern again, so you must have missed it.

I think the first alternative of #41 hangs a lot better than the second (neglecting the neckhole).


Maybe I have some kind of mental block, but I can't understand why you would want to start fitting with the neckhole so far out of position?  In order to correct it later, you would need to move the yoke up and forward.  This means lengthening the upper back, and also shortening the upper front .  Or in other words, turning #41 into #42.  Why not just start with #42?

If #41 fits better than #42, does that mean a lower position of the yoke seam is beneficial?  If that is the case why not try a taller yoke?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 18, 2016, 09:38:46 AM
Probably should have posted this earlier.  Here is the waist length jacket pattern as it now stands.

The backs.  The CB dart goes all the way from waist line to the yoke seam.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsl5qnzzsw.jpg)

The fronts.  The only slant in the CF line is from chest line up, due to the wedge added in post #9.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpswobismyo.jpg)

The left side, giving an idea of the proportions.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsiguch1me.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 18, 2016, 08:36:59 PM
In any case you have to remove this CB dart.
It throws off the upper back completely. Try yourself: join the cb pattern pieces from the yoke to the waist and look what happens to the yokeseam/darts. They change dramatically. Thatīs what makes the back wander downwards.


(I like the first #41 better because itīs not distorted (calm back folds), all lines are horizontal, the ease is distributed evenly around the body wich makes it a lot easier to form the garment with pinning. In this case I would make an exception from the rule and -quick and dirty- just fill the back neckhole and cut out the front neck.)








Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 18, 2016, 10:40:10 PM
(In this case I would make an exception from the rule and -quick and dirty- just fill the back neckhole and cut out the front neck.)

This is not as "quick and dirty" as cutting a taller yoke piece, which will fill in the neck hole and put the shoulder seam back in position.  It can be sewn further down on the fronts and then the front neck can be re-cut.

In any case you have to remove this CB dart.
It throws off the upper back completely. Try yourself: join the cb pattern pieces from the yoke to the waist and look what happens to the yokeseam/darts. They change dramatically. Thatīs what makes the back wander downwards.

Rather than fill in this dart on the short version, and pin the folds closed, I think it will be easier to take the collar and sleeves off the long one (which has no back dart) and then adjust the balance.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 18, 2016, 11:32:04 PM
All right.  Here is the long version with all external influences removed.  This is the same pattern as the short jacket (post #44), except there is no CB dart and no golf back, and of course, it's longer.

First, the with the balance as drawn:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpshkg2mpox.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsn9xlcab6.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsovr47ny1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zps97fbiw4h.jpg)

Second, with the fronts raised 1"  relative to the backs:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsbqmiz1co.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsw9trowuy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zps3nxbm2ad.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zps0oifn22n.jpg)

Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 19, 2016, 04:43:54 AM
 Can you please make some pics with the center back neck pinned in place where it belongs to?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 19, 2016, 08:01:41 AM
Alright, here the back neck is pinned to the sweater collar.  Same two balance settings as in the previous post (#47).
First, the balance as drawn:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsn6tfblpg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsd9p3v58q.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsid84btmz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zps96q4rcqu.jpg)


Second - front raised 1" relative to back:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsoiubreno.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsltay4we8.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsgs2dtu1e.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsb4olqpa3.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 19, 2016, 10:55:41 AM
And, just for fun:

Short jacket
All waist suppression removed from CB seam
Fronts raised 1" relative to backs
Neckhole "filled in" (restored to correct location) by adding 1" to yoke at back, and taking 1" deeper seams at top of fronts.  This also puts the shoulder seams in their proper position.  Front of neckhole has not been cut down yet.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpskgfmiphq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpst67g5o4p.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsnutfnffz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsfcbavyco.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 19, 2016, 10:23:34 PM
Concerning the short version:
You essentially just made the back balance longer with this alteration. the fronts moved up for 1" and cut off 1" at their top sums up to +/- 0. when you join the fronts as drawn( continuing chest line and former yoke line) you donīt need to cut out the neckline and the lower armholes.
But I would prefer you to keep the fronts shifted upwards but sewn to the yoke at the former line or half in between them.

To make it clear: the center back dart wasnīt a waist surpression, it was a wedging of the upper back making the CB longer relatively to the armhole side. Thatīs why it made problems. A waist surpression would just be made from the chestline downwards to the waistline and a bit further.

For the long pinned versions it seems they are a bit tight at the front belly. I would like to see some pics with just the uppest button closed to determin wether we need some additional width at the belly.

All versions have a back that swings away at the hem. This will be corrected in the next step taking it out at roughly at the bi fold lines.but these chest -hip darts will not reach the yoke.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 19, 2016, 11:52:33 PM
Concerning the short version:
You essentially just made the back balance longer with this alteration. the fronts moved up for 1" and cut off 1" at their top sums up to +/- 0. when you join the fronts as drawn( continuing chest line and former yoke line) you donīt need to cut out the neckline and the lower armholes.

It's not just a balance change.  The yoke seam is now in a lower position on my upper back.  This seam acts like a dart and needs to be in the right place relative to the shoulder blade prominence.  I think that's why the back looks better now.

But I would prefer you to keep the fronts shifted upwards but sewn to the yoke at the former line or half in between them.

So we need a longer back balance, but not as much?  I will drop the fronts half an inch and see how that looks.


For the long pinned versions it seems they are a bit tight at the front belly. I would like to see some pics with just the uppest button closed to determin wether we need some additional width at the belly.

There is no top button (obviously I can add one).  But if you look at #47 (not pinned to the collar), there is plenty of extra room at the waist line.  Are you saying this needs to be redistributed?

To make it clear: the center back dart wasnīt a waist surpression, it was a wedging of the upper back making the CB longer relatively to the armhole side. Thatīs why it made problems. A waist surpression would just be made from the chestline downwards to the waistline and a bit further.

All versions have a back that swings away at the hem. This will be corrected in the next step taking it out at roughly at the bi fold lines.but these chest -hip darts will not reach the yoke.

OK, I understand that now.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 20, 2016, 01:47:26 AM
Here the fronts have been lowered 1/2" at the front yoke seams:

The shoulder seams are starting to creep backwards.  If you want any more front length I think we should lower the chest line, not let any more out at this seam.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsiotqefxr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsdx7xah32.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zps0qewrnpm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zps5ydplsmn.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 20, 2016, 04:48:55 AM
when you want to proceed with the short version, i would like to see it with the fronts raised another 1/2" in the side seams.

to get the back nearer to the body please close the bifolds by basting or remove them. itīs easier to add them after the back is right.



There is no top button (obviously I can add one).  But if you look at #47 (not pinned to the collar), there is plenty of extra room at the waist line.  Are you saying this needs to be redistributed?

[/quote]

iīm less concerned about the waistline. the toile seems to be tight a bit below the waistline and the last button seems to be stressed a bit in #49. I wanted to see wether the center front will gape there when the last 4 buttons are unbuttoned. It is possible that the belly pulls the garment towards the front because it is to tight there.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 20, 2016, 10:43:09 AM
when you want to proceed with the short version, i would like to see it with the fronts raised another 1/2" in the side seams.

to get the back nearer to the body please close the bifolds by basting or remove them. itīs easier to add them after the back is right.


All right, here is what you asked for:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsrawmrpqy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsinw5rtf1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpszhh5yu6j.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsetntyleb.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 20, 2016, 06:53:47 PM
Thank you. I think the balance looks good now.

First we should reestablish the right chest and waist lines: wearing the toile take a ruler and put it under your arm horizontally exactly where the jumper sleeve begins without pushing the sleeve up. let your wife mark the point where the upper edge of the ruler meets the side seam. Most probably this will be somewhere between the front and back chestline. Draw the new chest lines parallely to the old ones from this point.  Harmonize the lower armhole lines with the new chestline, using your pattern as template. Redraw the waistlines also with the same distance.

I will take this as target: http://www.ima-usa.com/original-u-s-wwii-82nd-airborne-first-sergeant-ike-jacket.html (http://www.ima-usa.com/original-u-s-wwii-82nd-airborne-first-sergeant-ike-jacket.html)

A front dart, a front side seam, a back side seam and CB seam? Do you want to keep the yoke and added folds? The jackets Iīve seen continue the folds all the way up to the shoulder seam without a yoke:

(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/rosenquarz7at/img466.jpgoriginal_zpskrwmy306.jpg)

Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 20, 2016, 11:53:54 PM
Thank you. I think the balance looks good now.

I'm not sure we are there yet.

Your reminder about the "uppest button" (post #51) reminded me of J King Wilson's "immediate action" major vertical balance tests.  Specifically this one:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/JKW_zpsbjwt9vmr.jpg)

If the fronts swing away with only the top button buttoned, and the back pulls away, then the back balance is too short.

So I added a top button and hole, and look what happens.  Buttoning the top one forces the back neck into its proper position, and the short back becomes obvious:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpstwlpcb0v.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsfaq1lqqt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsuyxquxbq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsu3bnlpvb.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 20, 2016, 11:59:49 PM
Now I lower the front until the chest lines agree (1-1/2")  Here is how it looks unbuttoned:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fu_zps2vzwyitt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bu_zps35jcqidp.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/lu_zpsoxzctgxj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/ru_zpsbjcaurbb.jpg)

And buttoned:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fb_zpsdda5wkw6.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bb_zpsb9fvboof.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/lb_zpsojmrutkz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/rb_zpsgcmjlwjb.jpg)

To me this seems like much better balance; the jacket fits the same buttoned or unbuttoned, and the neck lies in its proper place.  No, the hem is not parallel to the floor but I can recut it. 
If this is not right would you please explain why?  Maybe this style requires a short back for some reason?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 21, 2016, 01:48:42 AM
the things you did, donīt make the back balance longer. It stays the same. shifting the front upwards makes the front balance longer, shifting it downwards makes the front balance shorter. I want a longer front balance because I want  the chest line to be horizontal and to have some material above the chestline, to be able to make a small chest dart towards the armhole or leave it a bit looser like all the ike jackets I have seen. Itīs also easier to manipulate such a dart for different garment styles once it is established.
Lifting the front does have the side effect that the lower center front is pulled more towards the body. This could cause the fronts to be too small at the center front belly heigth. This is even more an issue with a forward hip posture. In this case it would be necessary to draw the belly point( called LV in the scetch above) a bit protruding from the fall line of the chest point (Bp above).  In the long version this problem seems obvious, thatīs why I asked you to show these pics.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 21, 2016, 12:46:29 PM
The side seams have been sewn at the position you wanted.  Chest and waist lines have been re-drawn in red.  Do you want me to cut away the surplus material from the front armholes?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsrht12do4.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsflmsuphe.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpslwhkenco.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpset00tfra.jpg)


A front dart, a front side seam, a back side seam and CB seam? Do you want to keep the yoke and added folds? The jackets Iīve seen continue the folds all the way up to the shoulder seam without a yoke:

Yes, I want to keep the back folds and yoke.  Without a yoke I would need shoulder darts, which I don't think would look good in this style of jacket.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: posaune on August 21, 2016, 07:12:36 PM
congratulation for both of you, Peterle and Jim
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 21, 2016, 10:22:45 PM
I made a change so I wouldn't have to recut the armholes.

From the position of the new chest lines, it was clear that I had added 1" of length to the front balance, and deducted 1/2" from the back balance.  I was able to recover these amounts by shifting the yoke seams.  Having done this, I re-sewed the side seams together at the original (black) chest and waist lines.

We should be ready to proceed with the darts.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsbaacxrti.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsso9hel6c.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsjdbjcepk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsrywh0knj.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 22, 2016, 04:28:43 AM
Please stay with the toile of #60 and recut the armholes. The lines of #61 are not horizontal anymore.
(There is a difference between shifting the front at the side seam and letting some length out of the yoke seam: shifting the fronts upwards keeps the chestline at the same distance from the floor at CF but lifts the front at the side of the body. Thus the chestline gets horizontal all over. Your alteration just shifts the whole fronts downwards but keeps the slanted run of the line. we donīt want this).

Its easy to redo the lower armholes. just use your paper pattern as a template and shift it till it meets the new chest line.

Back darts: take the basted fold line as the center line of a dart.  mark 1/2" to the left and to the right of this line at the hem line. from this marks draw a straight line to the point where the center line meets the armhole, wich is about the half in between chestline and yoke seam.  voilá: the back darts. (a waist surpression would not make sense with the folds)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 22, 2016, 07:33:45 AM

(a waist surpression would not make sense with the folds)


Well, I want to keep the folds, and some waist suppression is necessary.  So we need to find a way:

- Return to CB dart, maybe not so high?

- Use a back waistband, and taper the side of the pattern; essentially combining the dart with the fold?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 22, 2016, 09:39:44 AM
So here's my latest harebrained scheme:

- 1" of additional material pleated into each back fold from waist to hem

- a CB wedge, 1/2" from hem to waist and then sloping to nothing at the chest line

(both of these will stop at top of back belt on the finished version)

- a small (1/4") dart at lower front scye, pointing toward the middle of the front chest line.  The ends of these can be hidden under pocket flaps.

I didn't re-set the side seams, because this is just kicking around ideas.

Now everyone can tell me why it won't work...

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpspdujys5w.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpshjimnmcx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zps4xkpc6ly.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsk1yx6ybz.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 22, 2016, 08:27:29 PM
Itīs not kicking around ideas. It is obvious that #60 is better than #61.

Yoke, CB seam and waist surpression:
Without a yoke  there would be a CB seam and the yoke dart would be manipulated and redistributed by slashing and pivotin: a very little towards the CB (left unsewn and making the CB seam a bit curvy),  a bit more towards the shoulder seam( wich would be eased in and not sewn as a dart) and a little bit would be left at the armhole (not sewn as well, makes the back scye a bit  more comfy). Thatīs how the back is done in my linked pics.
Only in this case a very little waist surpression can be made at the center back seam. itīs simply the wrong place for waist surpression ( the best place is where the seams of an denim jacket back are located).
With a yoke you wonīt have a cb seam, yoke and additional cb seam would be redundant and ugly.

So a waist surpression at the back can only be installed at the dart lines. When you carry the folds all the way down to the belt, the waist surpression will only make the folds gape with hardly any impact on the shape. But it would work when the folds are  sewn closed in the lower area, from a bit above the half in between chest and waist line downwards.
So I would recommend a yokeless style, with folds starting at the black marked shoulder seam and endig above the waist. Thatīs also the place where they are needed for arm movement.
A little waist surpression can also be made in the side seams.

By the way:  Iīm pretty sure your waist lines are yet too low. Your true waist is higher. Check it with a cord tied around your body at the small of your back.

Front dart: you donīt have to live with this armhole dart. Manipulate it into a classical vertical front dart. Transfer the armhole dart to your paper pattern, slash the paper pattern verticaly from the hem upwards to the tip of the dart. Pivot the scye dart (nearly) close and the dart will open towards the hem.  The actual dart has to be a bit shorter. You can eventually integrate a very little waist surpression into this vertical dart.

Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: posaune on August 22, 2016, 09:40:58 PM
I attach a pic, which shows how a shaped back is drafted. Black is the shaped back. Note the Back width ist measured from the already shaped line.
The distance to the neckpoint is 39.4. Now the red (this like your sloper). The back width is measured from the fold. The distance to neck point is 38.4. So we have a surplus of 0.7 cm in the shaped draft. Fabric which is used for mobility especially in thight drafts. 3. pic is one over the other.
With your posture I would shape the back even more: But this another draft and you want to do your book sloper.
If you take out at back like you wanted you will take away where you need it. The right place for a dart  is where Peterle described it
(https://s13.postimg.org/5558vhn6b/shaped_back.png) (https://postimg.org/image/5558vhn6b/)
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 22, 2016, 11:51:37 PM
Thank you both for your replies.  You are a wealth of information.


Without a yoke there would be a CB seam and the yoke dart would be manipulated and redistributed by slashing and pivotin: a very little towards the CB (left unsewn and making the CB seam a bit curvy), a bit more towards the shoulder seam( wich would be eased in and not sewn as a dart) and a little bit would be left at the armhole (not sewn as well, makes the back scye a bit more comfy). Thatīs how the back is done in my linked pics.

I think this complex manipulation is beyond my skill level at this point.  And, during the sloper and first jacket threads I thought it was settled that my prominent shoulder blades would require either a yoke or shoulder darts for a good fitting upper back.  Given the choice, I would prefer the yoke for this style jacket. 

I have a leather flight jacket with a yoke and back folds, and arm movement is not a problem.  Maybe it would be even better if the folds went higher up, but it's enough with the yoke.

So a waist surpression at the back can only be installed at the dart lines. When you carry the folds all the way down to the belt, the waist surpression will only make the folds gape with hardly any impact on the shape. But it would work when the folds are sewn closed in the lower area, from a bit above the half in between chest and waist line downwards....

...A little waist surpression can also be made in the side seams...

...Front dart: you donīt have to live with this armhole dart. Manipulate it into a classical vertical front dart. Transfer the armhole dart to your paper pattern, slash the paper pattern verticaly from the hem upwards to the tip of the dart. Pivot the scye dart (nearly) close and the dart will open towards the hem. The actual dart has to be a bit shorter. You can eventually integrate a very little waist surpression into this vertical dart.


Using these ideas, what I would like to do next is:

- Keep the yoke, but no CB seam
- Half belt at back
- Waist suppression at the folds, but ending above the waist
- Waist suppression (small) at side seams
- Vertical front darts with small waist suppression

It is obvious that #60 is better than #61.
By the way: Iīm pretty sure your waist lines are yet too low. Your true waist is higher. Check it with a cord tied around your body at the small of your back.

A new toile is required, so I will take these points into account in the draft.


Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 23, 2016, 03:29:15 AM
For a waist surpression you need the right waistline, otherwise you donīt know where to make it.

Skip the waist surpression on the front dart for the moment, you can make it later when necessary.
Donīt overdo the surpressions, a small amount can do wonders for the shape, but a little too much will distort the garment. You can shift the side seams forward for 1"-1,5" before you do the surpression.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 23, 2016, 01:26:47 PM
Here is the new toile as described in #68.  I decided to wait on the back belt since peterle mentioned moving the side seam location.  Also, the only waist suppression at this point is what I incorporated at the base of the back folds.  The front darts are just what resulted from pivoting the scye darts closed.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zps3a2vpxif.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zps30i27xm4.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsrvko6mul.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpseopvwcov.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 24, 2016, 01:51:06 AM
Dart manipulation is easy, isnīt it? It would be as easy at the back too...

sides seams: draw a parallel line to the side seam about 1-1,5" at the front. this will be your new side seam line. in the paper pattern just cut this stripe off the front and add it to the back.
At this line as center line make the waist surpression by drawing a fish formed (not diamond shaped) dart, the wide part (2cm should be enough for the moment) is to be placed above the waistline.(yourīs is yet too deep!) In the case of love handles in this area, the lower tip of the fish should be short enough. But itīs also  possible your body allows to continue the surpression to the hem, leaving the lower tip open. so the form depends on your body shape.

Back dart: Did you take the fold line as center line of the dart or did you just enlarge the fold depth for another inch keeping the fold line?
For the surpression mark 5-8mm to the left and to the right of the existing dart at the waistline and draw two lines upwards angeled from the waistline about 3-4 ". connect the end points with the top  tip of the back dart. Below the waistline continue the lines to the end points of the existing dart so the hem keeps itīs width. this new dart lines must be sewn from the hem to the end of the 3-4" lines.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 24, 2016, 02:27:13 AM
Here is the pattern so you can see what I did.

For the back, the pleats are now tapered from 1-1/2" intake (3" total) at top to 2" intake (4" total) at bottom.  This results in 1" of waist suppression per pleat.  Below the waist line, the pleats are cut off and the seam is sewn straight down to the hem.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/pb_zpsu2pdnrqs.jpg)

The front darts are straight, as resulted from pivoting the scye darts closed.  I thought I might take a little more out at the waist line, leaving the same amount at the hem, creating a fish shaped dart.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/pf_zpshba55rd7.jpg)

sides seams: draw a parallel line to the side seam about 1-1,5" at the front. this will be your new side seam line. in the paper pattern just cut this stripe off the front and add it to the back.

What about angling the side seam, so it still meets the scye at center bottom?  I like having this reference mark for the sleeve seam location.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 24, 2016, 03:47:18 AM
Here I have pinned out a fish shaped dart at the (advanced) side seam location peterle recommended.  I think this is tight enough in the waist; it doesn't need to be skin-tight.

I see two things:

- Maybe I can turn the lower part of the front dart (below the waist line) into a sort of belly dart, in order to tighten the hem a little at front.  Leave it the same width at waist line but angle more steeply to the hem.

- The right side of the chest appears to be loose, and the back pleat is gaping on that side.  Did the waist suppression at side seam cause this (it didn't on the left), or is something else going on?  Maybe the shoulder seam needs to be repositioned on the yoke?  Or maybe the right chest is too wide?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsuzo0wpph.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsmwejasi5.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsj8ibggpa.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsq7szxqdw.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 24, 2016, 04:23:19 AM
First: the initial back darts should have been continued all the way down to the hem. These darts are wedges to remove additional width from the armscye to the hips. you should continue the lines straightly from the waistline down.


A slanted seam makes troubles in surpression. Keep the side seam parallel and simply mark the middle of armscye when you need it as reference.

Yes, you can take a wedge out to make the front hem a bit tighter. Donīt overdo it.

Please pin the darts to the insides, otherwise I canīt see the effect. It would be even better to sew it with large stitches and a looser top thread tension.


Right chest and back: This is always the same issue in all the patterns. your right and left are not symmetrical. It seems your right shoulder and arm is shifted to the back and your right chest seems to be less voluminous then the left. This would demand a complicated pattern adaption, and I donīt want to open this Pandoraīs box.


ONCE MORE: CHECK WETHER THE WAISTLINE MEETS YOUR BODY`S WAIST!!!

Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 24, 2016, 12:10:00 PM
ONCE MORE: CHECK WETHER THE WAISTLINE MEETS YOUR BODY`S WAIST!!!

My wife and I both checked, and believe it or not, it's right at the black line.

Waist suppression darts are now sewn in.  Fish darts at the (advanced) side seams, and the chest darts sloped a little more from waist line to hem to act like a belly dart.  Sewing these seems to have settled down the right chest.  I didn't notice the little flaw at the bottom of the right side dart until getting the pictures ready to post.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpstghho1gh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpssr69gkbp.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsqadheptz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpstb05awz3.jpg)

Not to jump the gun, but I thought this looked good enough to add the sleeves:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zpsifoiztmc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fss_zpssm379txi.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zps4eeuvhea.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bss_zpsiwo2bjqr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/ls_zpssfhc23er.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/rs_zpsv8azja28.jpg)

And here is the collar, plus a little more taken out of the right side dart at the hem:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fc_zps4ikb4mcc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bc_zpsilgmmpso.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/lc_zpsfqsrb7x8.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/rc_zpszpgjuouz.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 24, 2016, 08:03:30 PM
from the chest towards the side seam waist a diagonal fold is developing. this indicates the side seam surpression is too much or/and too low.

the hem-waist ration of the fronts isnīt harmonic also, there is an (inward) bulge forming around the waistline/ front dart. you can try to remove it by taking out a little at the waist, or be decreasing the belly dart a bit.

Why donīt you sew the folds at the back? The waist surpression wonīt work with open folds.


The collar version seems to pull the garment out of position. Maybe the collar is too short? Be aware that the neckhole of a jacket has to be wider than a shirt neckhole because it has to be roomy enough for a shirt collar ecc.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 24, 2016, 11:47:51 PM
from the chest towards the side seam waist a diagonal fold is developing. this indicates the side seam surpression is too much or/and too low.

the hem-waist ration of the fronts isnīt harmonic also, there is an (inward) bulge forming around the waistline/ front dart. you can try to remove it by taking out a little at the waist, or be decreasing the belly dart a bit.

So, summing up these two, I should probably take a little more at the front waist and a little less at the side?  Or maybe make the side darts taller?


Why donīt you sew the folds at the back? The waist surpression wonīt work with open folds.

If you look closely, the folds are sewn across horizontally just above the waist for the full depth of the pleat (2").  This seems to secure them in place pretty effectively as they are not gaping.

The collar version seems to pull the garment out of position. Maybe the collar is too short? Be aware that the neckhole of a jacket has to be wider than a shirt neckhole because it has to be roomy enough for a shirt collar ecc.

The collar probably is too short, the neckhole has gotten longer with the new yoke.  I need to check the seam length and alter the collar pattern.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 25, 2016, 02:29:43 AM

So, summing up these two, I should probably take a little more at the front waist and a little less at the side?  Or maybe make the side darts taller?


Yes, you can try. The side seam surpression should reach the chestline anyway so "taller" is not possible, but maybe the darts widest part should be higher letīs say about 2" above your waistline.

The back waist surpression explained in #71 ( wich has to be done additionally to the back dart of# 63) was meant to get the back of the garment nearer to the body above the waistline. This will not work when folds are not sewn vertically for the 3-4", because there is no pull. But maybe you prefer it blousy.


Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 25, 2016, 04:18:46 AM
Yes, you can try. The side seam surpression should reach the chestline anyway so "taller" is not possible, but maybe the darts widest part should be higher letīs say about 2" above your waistline.

I misunderstood, I thought the dart should end between the chest and waist lines.  I will try extending it to the chest line and maybe moving the widest point up.

Meanwhile, the latest changes.  I ripped off the collar, leaving the ends sewn in place, then cut it in two on the centerline.  I pinned the pieces back in place on the neck seam and discovered an additional 1-1/2" of length was needed.  The collar seems to lie much better now.

I also took out a little more width at the waist line in each chest dart.  Maybe this was too much since the back pleats are now gaping:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f1_zpsrzoxoqob.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b1_zpsrewhiesd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l1_zps3ew3cy6t.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r1_zpsw4ev52j5.jpg)

Here I have pinned the bottom of the pleats closed for about 3".  It reduces the gaping but does not seem to make much difference to the shape of the garment.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f2_zpstfkh1ddg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b2_zpspmu2upz2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l2_zpsbdfnongd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r2_zps5rsaskk6.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 25, 2016, 04:38:18 AM
Here the side darts have been extended to the chest line, with their widest point 1" above it.  Back pleats are unpinned again.

Don't know what happened to the back of the left shoulder, since I didn't make any changes there.  Probably just put it on carelessly.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zps3ljvwmlh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsyr9eztjy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsru5w7wdo.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsxbq5kmug.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on August 25, 2016, 05:41:38 PM
collar and belly look good now I think, and the front side seam shape looks good also. the shape of the jacket is a lot nicer.

For the back: surpression didnīt change a lot. problem of the pinned (and less obviouse also for the unpinned) version could be the vertically sewn pleats. they pull  the waistline up a bit because they are too short. free the pleats and look if therīs a difference.

having the waist surpression that far outside of the ideal place usually demands to stretch the side seam of the back with the iron around the area of the waistline (before sewing). this would allow the center back to move inwards.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 25, 2016, 10:27:52 PM

having the waist surpression that far outside of the ideal place usually demands to stretch the side seam of the back with the iron around the area of the waistline (before sewing). this would allow the center back to move inwards.


So, you are saying the waist suppression darts should not be part of the folds?  Your previous explanations confused me.

If there should be separate back darts, how far inside of the folds should they be?
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: posaune on August 25, 2016, 10:53:09 PM
Jim, look at a draft of a coat with side panels. Exactly there should the dart be.
With a rounded back and strong shoulderblades it can give difficulties when you do the pleat in one part there maybe not enough length in the pleat's body. I hope, I have understood it clearly.

lg
posaune
(https://s11.postimg.org/n3y2gyqjj/backdart.png) (https://postimg.org/image/n3y2gyqjj/)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 26, 2016, 01:10:37 AM
Jim, look at a draft of a coat with side panels. Exactly there should the dart be.


Thank you.  I am not sure from the diagram where this dart should be.  Is it a third of the way from the side seam to CB?  Half way?

I could make my back panel narrower overall (move the pleat lines horizontally), or I could angle them like the pattern peterle posted.  But I need to know how to locate the dart first.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 26, 2016, 01:22:40 AM
Here is an original officer's Ike jacket I did some insignia sewing on a few years ago.  This is not the blousy enlisted version but was cut down from an officer's tunic.

Notice that it has a CB seam, though it's hard to tell how much it was shaped...

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/o_zpsq6nsuqtn.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/i_zps57nlukv3.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 26, 2016, 01:54:55 AM
Here is another idea for waist shaping with a flat back.  This is my dad's USAF Ike jacket from 1962.  Note the four tiny box pleats above the belt:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/p_zpsprs5tthd.jpg)

I tried pinning two pleats near the center in my toile.  They definitely shape up the back, but now it is bulging:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsptvzrxaz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpsltovmfwv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpstdofnazz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpszxmk2mli.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 26, 2016, 02:05:19 AM
This is a German uniform jacket (fliegerbluse) from WWII.  Is this the kind of waist dart you were thinking of?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/2000000048369-05_zpskgupxar0.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 26, 2016, 03:20:31 AM
So, I decided to try putting two fish shaped darts in the back waist.  I chose 3" from the pleats because I thought it would be far enough away to not disturb them.

This seems much better than the box pleat idea:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zpsbf0vddcq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zps4ksks3pv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsdg5dznu3.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpslffayaxg.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on August 26, 2016, 10:41:03 AM
Here I have replaced the right sleeve with a more finished design.  1/4" longer, with a 2-1/2" wide functional band cuff.  The sleeve is cut in two pieces with some round on the back seam for a better fit over the elbow.  I also included a sewn-in gusset in the armhole, for better arm movement.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zps9zihqz9z.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zpsuov9ihac.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zps5ut662f2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zps9oj7qugl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsw0tmphaf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpszkfiypqu.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on September 01, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Here is the finished jacket in a 12oz dark blue denim:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/01_zpstzgf2gen.jpg)

The cuff and breast pocket style were taken from the uniform shown in post #86:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/02_zpshebagtm5.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/03_zpsgphx9kip.jpg)

Collar is a convertible style.  I haven't yet added a tab and button to keep it closed if desired:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/04_zpsq3c6sdog.jpg)

Body lining is a lightweight brushed denim.  The sleeve lining was on sale with leftover Fourth of July patterns:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/05_zpsxkiwvl0r.jpg)

Back overview showing the half-belt I added at waist level.  The panel below this is cut with a slight curve so it can spread over the hips.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/06_zpsge4rkgil.jpg)

The back pleat and sewn-in underarm gusset:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/07_zpsjliuhfqs.jpg)

Inspired by Henry Hall's thread, I made a matching driving cap out of leftovers:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/08_zpshgma3xsd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/09_zps5sou07m1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/10_zpsfxcoukol.jpg)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on September 01, 2016, 11:50:50 AM
And now the fit.  First over a medium weight shirt:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/f_zps6hp8c9ha.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/b_zpstlvrocjy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/l_zpsfbt62snk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/r_zpsipqjb4rf.jpg)

The back pleats and gussets allow plenty of arm movement:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/ab_zps5nkelucx.jpg)

And now with the thick sweater used for toile fittings:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/fs_zps79xnqosq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/bs_zpsxq16wdbc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/ls_zpsyl6dadkx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/rs_zps5e8lhbxp.jpg)

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this, but especially peterle.  Although I didn't always take your advice, I very much appreciate your time and patience.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Schneiderfrei on September 01, 2016, 11:53:59 AM
Looks good :)
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on September 01, 2016, 09:19:03 PM
Smart result sir. I particularly like the shot where you're holding the cup as a prop :D It has the look of short air-force uniform tunics. I like it. The back looks very neat.
What made me wince is the inside pocket running from lining to facing. I always avoid this sort of thing because it makes replacing the lining, or other repairs, a nightmare.

Your cap has far more care and attention, my excuse is that I'm stuck at home with a case of bilateral epicondylitis. Sewing is agony.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: hutch-- on September 01, 2016, 10:09:13 PM
Nice Jacket Jim, compliments.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: TTailor on September 01, 2016, 11:23:40 PM
Looks good, well done Jim!

Slightly hijacking the original topic here, we can move this is there is alot of discussion....
What made me wince is the inside pocket running from lining to facing. I always avoid this sort of thing because it makes replacing the lining, or other repairs, a nightmare.
It is interesting because I was taught to make the inside breast pocket this way, and I still do for work. I was pondering making a change to the method for the very reasons you mention but then I thought how many times have you (in the broader sense of you) had to change the lining?
 I know the jackets we make go through more wearings and cleanings than the average as they are worn onstage multiple times per week, cleaned multiple times, stored, then reused in years to come, and I don't recall seeing more than one or two instances over the years where replacing the complete lining is necessary.
I have seen a few pocket corners need repair for sure, but I don't know if it would be more or less work to repair them or replace them if they were fully inset into a wool background, other than easier access opening up the lining around the pocket.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: theresa in tucson on September 02, 2016, 12:36:23 AM
J, all I can say is, WOW.  The spouse has his dad's Ike jacket from his service days and you have caught the feel of that jacket.  I especially like the back gussets.

Theresa in Tucson
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on September 02, 2016, 01:25:09 AM
The spouse has his dad's Ike jacket from his service days and you have caught the feel of that jacket. 

Theresa in Tucson

Thanks!  What's funny is how far this actually deviates from that style.  If you look at this illustration from the 1952 air force uniform regulations, the Ike jacket was supposed to blouse over the waistband:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Classic%20Fit%20Shirt/Casual%20Jacket/image006_zpsmjlt5miv.jpg)

I wanted a more fitted style, and I'm sure that confused peterle when I called it an "Ike" jacket.

Of course not all Ike jackets were/are the same.  The olive drab one I posted in #85 was tailored from an officer's tunic and was probably quite fitted. 
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on September 02, 2016, 01:34:09 AM

Slightly hijacking the original topic here, we can move this is there is alot of discussion....
What made me wince is the inside pocket running from lining to facing. I always avoid this sort of thing because it makes replacing the lining, or other repairs, a nightmare.
It is interesting because I was taught to make the inside breast pocket this way, and I still do for work. I was pondering making a change to the method for the very reasons you mention but then I thought how many times have you (in the broader sense of you) had to change the lining?
 I know the jackets we make go through more wearings and cleanings than the average as they are worn onstage multiple times per week, cleaned multiple times, stored, then reused in years to come, and I don't recall seeing more than one or two instances over the years where replacing the complete lining is necessary.
I have seen a few pocket corners need repair for sure, but I don't know if it would be more or less work to repair them or replace them if they were fully inset into a wool background, other than easier access opening up the lining around the pocket.


I usually make inside pockets this way for reenactment clothing.  It's simple to make, and I often have to deal with quilted linings and facings which are not easily replaced anyway.  I like fairly deep facings, so it's hard to keep the pocket opening confined to the lining without making it so narrow as to be useless.

For an expensive wool jacket with a more traditional (and flimsier) lining, I agree it would make sense to cut an extended facing for the pocket mouth and slit/fold the lining around it.  In this case I expect the jacket shell will wear out as fast as the lining.  The construction is simple and denim is cheap, so once the jacket is significantly worn I'll just make another one.  By that time my figure will have changed anyway...
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on September 02, 2016, 02:31:27 AM
I can concede all those points (both from Terri and Jim). For good garments the linings will likely go for the life of the garment. What I have is people who ask me if I'm able to replace a lining in a coat they have, either because they don't like the lining or it has been torn or badly stained (usually by a pen). These are often old, vintage garments, bought from eBay, with heavily-stained linings. In these cases the pocket running between lining/facing makes it near impossible. On two occasions I've dismantled the pocket mouth, re-stabilised the back and remade the whole pocket, but it's a horrible chore.

Since I've never done the facing/lining pocket myself, it seems to me like fiddly work to assemble the facing and lining and then to put a pocket it in, and then all of that flapping about when the facing it attached. I prefer the method you see on old German garments which is a rounded sort of 'Barcelona' method and the piece stitched onto the facing.

Just difference I suppose. I had always thought that the pocket running between the facing/lining like that was done deliberately by high-fashion and RTW so that it had to be chucked if damaged.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on September 02, 2016, 06:28:19 AM

Since I've never done the facing/lining pocket myself, it seems to me like fiddly work to assemble the facing and lining and then to put a pocket it in, and then all of that flapping about when the facing it attached.


Here's a tutorial I wrote about it on another forum:

http://thesewingacademy.org/index.php?topic=6813.0

You can baste the pocket bag to the lining to keep it in place while attaching the lining/facing assembly.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: Henry Hall on September 02, 2016, 06:55:59 AM
A good tutorial. I know how to do it, I've just never wanted to have it on anything. Not that I'm deprecating it at all.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: TTailor on September 02, 2016, 07:27:38 AM
To be honest, we always machine the lining to the wool facing, make the inner breast pocket, then we sew the facing to the fronts by machine.
Of course I mark both the lining and facing from the pattern, so things do not get out of alignment. It has never seemed to be an issue, but we all bet used to our own methods and what would drive me crazy is often so eone else's comfort zone.

If one is replacing the whole lining the pocket needs to be remade anyway in matching lining, so you are dealing with the existing hole.
It is a lot of work to put new linings in old garments, since you don't have the original pattern to work from.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: peterle on September 09, 2016, 12:32:18 AM
Hi, back from holidays I see you have finished the jacket. Congrats.

With the back darts, you put the back waist surpression at the best location, where it is most effectiv without distorting the clean fit. For the next jacket you can manipulate these darts away by slashing and pivoting. playing around with this method you will learn a lot how a back pattern changes itīs form.
Title: Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
Post by: jruley on September 09, 2016, 12:56:15 AM
Hi, back from holidays I see you have finished the jacket. Congrats.


Thank you very much.  This weekend I'm leaving for a short trip myself.

With the back darts, you put the back waist surpression at the best location, where it is most effectiv without distorting the clean fit. For the next jacket you can manipulate these darts away by slashing and pivoting. playing around with this method you will learn a lot how a back pattern changes itīs form.


When I get back, maybe we can return to the long version, and you can talk me through manipulating away the yoke darts as well?