Jim,
It may just be my eye but the pattern looks like it needs to be tapered from the underarms down to the waistline a bit more as it would remove some of the excess fabric at around the waistline level.
Have you added inlays so you can crook the fronts?
First the balance. The hem goes up in back as the back waist line does. And stands away at CB. Folds are emerging around the shoulderblades. The back needs more length over the shoulder blades (1 - 1.5 cm).
I would adice doing this first. Some things will settle.
But here we have the same effect as in the coat thread: In the front photo you have another posture as in the back view. So I do not know what exact I'm seeing.
What is it really? A close fitting shirt block?
A close fitting block of any sort needs shaping and this just seems like a shirt yes?
I ask only because a close fitted bodice block for a man is what I would call my own draft that I use for doublets and, well, anything that has to fit the body contours closely and this does not.
How much ease is allowed beyond the basic chest measure?
the neckline is off.
Too low in front and too wide in the back. figure out why- is the draft bad or is there a mistake in reading the draft?
As for overall distribution of circumference, I think there is just a bit too much fabric in the back and not enough in the front for you.
From the back photos , you can see (especially on your left) how the fabric is slightly taut over the upper blade. Need length to go over that part of the body. So unpick the top of the sleeve. and unpick 3/4 (or most of the shoulder seam length). Leave the shoulder seam allowances pressed as they are. You should baste in a piece of muslin under the front shoulder to act as an inlay.
Get help for this next part.
Put the shirt back on and get your helper to pin the shoulder seam closed where it wants to naturally lay.
You will likely need to pin a dart in the back shoulder first, then pin the back shoulder onto the inlay you basted in place.
Do the left and then the right, which will be different as your right side is dropped. Don't try to fix the drop yet.
What is the calculation for the front neck depth?
Jim, if you have 15,5 " neck that is in metric a 39.5 cm neck and this goes with a bust something about 96. So you will get a 8.3 cm back neck. With the formula: neck/5 -0.5 or neck/6 (which I use in my shirt drafts) you'll get about 7.4 cm or 6.6 cm. (I think it is not good to use bust for neck hole calculations)
When you use a smaller neck size the shoulder point will move to the center but the back width and front width will stay the same. This is why you can't just sew the back smaller.
And if it is smaller it will not be so deep in front.
lg
posaune
You canīt take out the amount, you have to add fabric to make the neckhole smaller. Add a bit of fabric like sewing allowance.So the neckhole is in the right place, it just needs to be smaller in circumference so a collar will fit. Is that right?
The back looks much better now.
My observation is, that your right hip is shifted to the right. it pulls the hole back rightwards. Drawing a strictly vertical line through the CB neckpoint on the pic shows, the back seam drifts to the right at least 1,5". Adding some width in the right sideseam (back and front) would allow the back seam falling vertical. Open the sideseam from the hem up to about a few inches under the armhole. you will see how much the seamlines gape at the hip.
What measure is shoulder width? It is not used to draft the back. So you do the smaller neck hole draft the shoulder length and add what is added in the draft: 1-1.5 cm to get the point D' (if I remember right)
The back is quite wide, the front is very tight at the chestline. Maybe the whole armhole could be shifted a bit backwards 0,5 - 0,75". (shift the armhole base towards the back and connect to the existing shoulder ends).So back interscye (E-I) will be reduced, and front interscye (G-K) will be increased.
Look at side view and look at waist line. See it rises in front and you see it clearly in the front pic. Your next alterations is the balance.
After this you will add fabric in front and take away in back.
Concerning the drop shoulder. Iīm not 100%sure about it. In the new back pic your shoulders are equally in height. Not so in the front pic. Is it possible your spine isnīt bent like a shallow C but like a shallow S? In other words both of your shoulders are shifted to the left? When I draw a vertical line through the shoulder seam ends on your pics (perpendicular to the cabinets edge on the first back pic), the left line doesnīt touch the hip at all , the right line cuts the hip. This would mean the sacrum and the 7th vertebra donīt line up vertically. This "off center" situation has to be dealt with in the pattern.
Didn't Jim say the floor is uneven?
QuoteLook at side view and look at waist line. See it rises in front and you see it clearly in the front pic. Your next alterations is the balance.
After this you will add fabric in front and take away in back.
Yes, I see what you're saying. But how much to add and where?
Should I remove the sleeves, then pass the back down on the front until the lines are horizontal?
Don't get ahead of yourself by doing too many things at once.
Redraft the neck using an alternative formula. 1/6 chest is really more appropriate for jackets. So you could try 1/5 of you neck measurement instead.
So do you have an across back measurement of your body? Compare that number to what the draft gives you using their formula. Generally you will want half your measured cross back plus some ease. Since this is a close fitting shirt block, then half cross back plus maybe one inch? No more.
My wife measured my back interscye distance as 16" - half is 8". The distance in the draft is 1/6 chest + 1-1/2". With my 40" chest this works out to 8.17, or a little more than 8-1/8". Fitting shows this is already too wide, so I don't think I want to add ease.
OK, just to be clear about the next steps:yes
- Everyone agrees to keep the shoulder dart/blade length adjustment.
Everyone agrees a smaller neck hole is needed.Yes
Peterle thinks I should shift the armhole backward to increase the width in front and reduce it in back. Terri seems to agree with the narrower back but hasn't mentioned the front.Yes I assumed that was understood, and that is what will happen if you reduce the back width, keep the space for the armhole the same, then the fronts width gains what you took from the back, as Posaune describes.
Most troubling to me:
- Terri believes I should add a wedge to the front and add length below the chest line. Posaune said (post #22) I need a balance adjustment, adding material in front and taking away in the back. When I tried to test this (last set of pictures), Terri saw no improvement. However, posaune didn't give specific instructions, so it's possible what I did wasn't what was intended.
I would like to make sure posaune and Terri are in agreement before I do the redraft.
What do you have, an engineering degree? They taught you how to think about engineering metals, wood, plastics, concrete and other stuff. But they didn't teach you about engineering clothes. Working with cloth is very different than what your engineering lessons taught. Until you know a lot more about working with cloth and fittings you need to throw out your engineering lessons here. Those lessons are messing you up. They laid out principles for a different type of engineering. And they are going to trip/mess you up, until you throw them out. Other engineers came to realize this is a different ball game that requires a different way of thinking. That is when they started to improve.
Jruley, have a look at http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=61.0
That will give an idea of other ways of finding balance in a shirt. I expect there even more ways than those.
G
Concerning the drop shoulder. Iīm not 100%sure about it. In the new back pic your shoulders are equally in height. Not so in the front pic. Is it possible your spine isnīt bent like a shallow C but like a shallow S? In other words both of your shoulders are shifted to the left? When I draw a vertical line through the shoulder seam ends on your pics (perpendicular to the cabinets edge on the first back pic), the left line doesnīt touch the hip at all , the right line cuts the hip. This would mean the sacrum and the 7th vertebra donīt line up vertically. This "off center" situation has to be dealt with in the pattern.
Some terminology:
I think you mean there is a lot more WIDTH at the hem? Everything measured horizontally is called width, everything measured vertical is called length.
This width is needed at the waisline to accomodate the belly that protrudes the chest in profil. Most probably it will create a wavy hemline, but this will be dealt with later. At the moment we are looking for a straight center front.
Balance is a terminus technicus that means the length/ distance between the neck hole and the chestline. There is a front balance and a back balance. A garment is"balanced" when the chestline runs horizontally all around the body because the back balance and the front balance have the right length for the individual body.
Well not exactly. Balance is measured vertically from the neckpoint( inner end of the shoulder seam) to the chestline, best over the peek of the shoulderblades/chest muscle). This is the minimum length the back balance must have. This measurement is not easy to take and not easy to apply to the pattern piece. Thatīs why it isnīt used that much.
Question: So what do we call an increase in a diagonal length?
So, by this definition balance is only measured on the CF and CB lines. And you can change balance either with wedge adjustments or by moving the whole back up or down at the side seams. Obviously these will have different effects and you need to consider where the extra length is needed. Have I got it right?
The folds starting at the belly dissappeared. Thatīs good.
I see yet an imbalanced garment: the chestline is straight (good, no more wedges needed) but it is slanted to the back. Seems to be about 1"(2,5cm).
To correct this, you have to lengthen the front balance and/or shorten the back balance. I would try it with shortening the back balance for 1cm and lengthening the front balance for 1,5cm. both evenly across the pieces.
Did you decrease the back width in the new pattern? It seems the back is as wide as before.
In order to analyse any figure it is important to have good measurements, including a balance measurement. I use a basic nape to cf waist. A twill tape or one inch wide elastic is in place at the waist level-navel height for this.
When drafting, i measure the back neck then apply that at one inch below the front waist construction line and measure up to the front neck point. Change the position of the neck point based on the measurement. That could be simply raising the neck point and shoulder point above the line, or in your case that plus opening the wedge, so a lot depends on the figure you are drafting for.
Passing up the front will just give an impression because the back balance would stay the same. I think the back balance could be a tad shorter because now the back hem swings forward a bit instead of hanging vertical in the profil pic.
Please mark the new chest and waist line.
Did you construct your new neckpoint with Terrys method? Or did you just check the paper pattern neckpoint with Terryīs method and it seems to be too low?
The horizontal construction waistline of a draft will never look level on a person. A visually level line on the body is actually lower on the front.
The horizontal construction waistline of a draft will never look level on a person. A visually level line on the body is actually lower on the front.
Posaune is too polite to say:
Probably it would have been better to add the hole 2,5cm to the front balance. The back chestline bows upwards a bit now because it is too short and the armholes push the chestline down.
I'm concerned that if I make the front longer (1cm or 3/8"), and take an equal amount from the back, the neckhole will come further back. This would make the collar stand away from the back of the neck and put pressure against the throat.
This is a misunderstanding:
You should make the front longer AND the back longer (by removing the 1cm strip seam).
This would shift the hole chestline 1cm downwards. So the armholes get 1cm deeper and donīt get pushed down by the arms anymore, because they are deep enough.
Try the back wedge alteration first, maybe it succeedes.
What it does have with the armholes is rotate them into there proper position. In other words, the "egg shape" has been rotated to fit the, since out of balance throw it out of kilter. Therefore, properly placed angle wise.
I also think Jim is doing a great job.
The block you are working on is it for a variety of shirt styles? When you mentioned darts I thought you were after a coat block.
You know Jim, the first tailor didn't learn from a book. Hope your shirt block turns out well.
Somthing I donīt understand: Looking at the back picture I measure across the back from armhole seam to armhole seam (cabinet knob height). CB to left armhole is 6,1cm CB to right armhole is 6,6cm. Is this just an illusion?
I think it needs more. Maybe even as much as 2 cm. The hem seems about that much shorter at the back than the front.
The back balance yet seems to be too short relatively to the front.
When you take the cabinets edge as reference horizontal line, you can see how much the chestline in the back is higher than in the front. This is to be equalized.
There is no need for a new toile, just open the dart portion of the current yokeseam and resew it straight/undarted. Then you can reinstall the dart only as it results from the pattern alteration. You donīt need an actual seam across the back.
Ok. But defining the yokeseams is usually one of the last steps, itīs just a detail. Fit is more important. Donīt forget you have to do a drop shoulder yet.
Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.
I was thinking I could cut the yoke the same on both sides, and take out for the drop shoulder on the top of front and back. Is there any reason this won't work?
A drop shoulder adjustment usually involves also a shoulder slope adjustment for the dropped shoulder and sometimes a neck point adjustment. Doing this in the yoke seam will probably lead to new difficulties like diagonal drag lines. Maybe this is a quick and dirty method for shirtmakers, but when you make the effort to do a toile, take the other way.
Sorry to interrupt the flow here, but is that strange looking front extension ("a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern"?) really what peterle meant?
Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.
Jim, please controll your armhole shape - I think maybe it is off after your alteration.
And do first the right shoulder - yoke style is secundary.
lg
posaune
How does it feel to wear it now?
Seems we have everything on the right place now.
The folds in the upper back are all more or less vertical. this indicates the back is yet a bit too wide. Did you measure your body back width? How much ease is between the armholes?
In a shirt the center back has to be completely straight from hem to the yoke at least, because there is no back seam in a shirt.
Shift the lower back yoke seam line parallely towards the center back (about 1cm) till the CB is straight. Reconnect the shifted end points of the line to the lower armhole and to the CB.
This picture set doesnīt show a low right shoulder. Meanwhile I think the dropped shoulder impression is mainly caused by the shifted hip posture.
So I would adress the hip thing first.
My theory is, your shoulders are shifted parallely to the left relatively to your hips. The body center line is not strictlty vertical, itīs slanted, out of plumb.
Don't know if Jim has had back pain, but that sideways list from the hips with one arm (in his case the right) further from the side, is also very characteristic of a lumbar disc prolapse. There's quite a bit of pain with that though.
Shorter leg? You may not notice until it is actually measured by someone else.
Hi peterle, I wondered about this lateral correction earlier. Is there a danger of constructing a slanted CF. Might that simply draw attention to the fact.
I also think that 1/4 " will not be enough. in the pics it seems to need about 3/4 -1".
How much is the hip out of plumb? Let a weighted string hang vertically down from the nape of the neck. Your buttocks, the line in between to be more precise, will show you how much. No pics needed of this step;-)
Is there a danger of constructing a slanted CF. Might that simply draw attention to the fact.
From the front view, it is clear that the shoulders and the hips do not line up. The shoulders are displaced to the left. This is a fixed postural change and is in fact termed a scoliosis. You could see that by tracing the front image and measuring like this:(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii605/Schneiderfrei/jruley/jruley%201_zpsta5sw8z2.jpg) (http://s1262.photobucket.com/user/Schneiderfrei/media/jruley/jruley%201_zpsta5sw8z2.jpg.html)
The entire left trunk profile is completely straight. The right trunk profile exhibits a strong curve.
It s clear that the arms are resting lightly against the sides.
What is not known to me is what appropriate pattern adjustment would be made here. You wouldnt want the CF to slope diagonally? Do you make changes that are the same as a dropped right shoulder? I feel I would want to remove some cloth from the right chest in a lateral way. Maybe this is a problem of lateral balance?
In the back view of your new posting the left side seam still appears very straight and the right side is slanted to the left.
so my proposal would be:
reopen the sides seams completely,
Put the garment on the table and flatten the back piece.
take the paper pattern and line up the right sideseam/armhole line with the garment.
Take a needle and drive it through the point where armholeline and yokeseam meet.
This is your pivot point.
Now pivot the paper pattern in a way, that the hem/sides seam point moves to the right about 3/4 -1".
Secure paper with weights and copy the armhole/sideseam line to the fabric.
Repeat on the left side, repositioning the seam also to the right.
Do the same to the front parts, making sure everything moves towards your right hip.
Resew.
So you did the paper alteration of 112.
Ok.
But donīt make a new toile, it would be waste of time and fabric.
seems we are on the right way...
So letīs talk about measurments:
Is your hip width (measured over trousers) wider than your chest width?
I think the hip displacement is regarded sufficiently now, but I think the hemline/hipline is a bit too small all over and causes a pulling on the left and on the right side.
so making the hemline wider for about 2-3cm per seam would release this tightness.
Are you sure, you did the new toile with all alterations? It seems we had a better balance in the toile #108. Or Maybe you wear the back neck a bit too low?
The rear view is straighter than the front view and that is a mix of how the photo is taken and Jim slightly changing his posture.
I donīt know why, but the front balance is a bit too short yet. The hem seems to stand away more than necessary. What happens, when you keep just the uppest button closed? Do the front center lines overlap?
Please, Jim, clip that neck hole again but a bit deeper so the fabric can settle down.
lg
posaune
Please wear the back neck hole a bit higher. this will influence the balance positively. The fluting in the fronts is most probably partly caused by this inbalance in wearing.
Is there a seam allowance added at the armholes?
Donīt forget to redraft the bottom of both front armholes first, they are yet 1/2" deeper than original because we shifted the front parts upwards for balance lately.
Do you mean I need to cut them deeper in the front, or raise the bottom of scye in the back?
Or should I cut the right front deeper, but raise the back on the left, since we dropped the right shoulder?
It could be a little bit more. how much did you lower the shoulder?
I also think you should clip the left front neckhole 2/3 from the shoulderseam down.
When you redraw the neckline, keep the old, higher line in center back and smooth in to the new lines at the shoulder seam.
Did you yet deepen the right armhole at the bottom? it seems very tight at the back now.
I would not be happy with the shape of this neckline. Judging from the side view photographs, it seems to dip quite a bit in the back. Is the piece going to sport a standard collar type, a specially designed collar, or remain collarless?
Jim, it would be best that you showed us the pattern.
You lay front to the back touching at side seam so that the form of the armhole is good to see and the sleeve on top under the armhole.
lg
posaune
My first alteration would be to shift the pitch of the cap line 1-1,5" towards the front( now itīs on the center line). Thus the front cap line would get steeper, the cap would create more room for the shoulder bone/bulge and the material would be shifted more to the back of the arm where it belongs to. The back cap line would get a bit shallower, so the "ridge" in the armhole seam around the yoke seam would get less and follow the bodyīs form( which is flatter in this area) a bit better.
How much is cap height: 1/3 from armhole height (pity, that the yoke is missing)?
well, Peterle, you've got me. I'm a bad sleeve fitter. I hate that.
what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?
But as far as i can recal, this sloper is not a shirt, but a basic from wich you can make clothingpatterns. Maybe this is why the sleevecap is this high. To make it useable for a jacket.
But look at the armhole: the back is nearly as high as the front. Look at side seam point: the front armhole seam is longer than the back armhole seam. side seam is gone to back. This is not repeated in the sleeve pattern.
what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?
As a sloper it has no collar, just a plain, representative neck line. I'm sure it could be smoother.If that is the representative neckline of a bodice sloper, it is wrong. Nothing to do with smoother; an optional collar expects a relatively flat surface or opening.
If that is the representative neckline of a bodice sloper, it is wrong. Nothing to do with smoother; an optional collar expects a relatively flat surface or opening.
Oh Jim, Lepus is right. The back neck is dipping. and before adding a collar and sleeve the neck - armholes schould be right.
You are right a committee is bad for advising.
to write about it makes the progress so slow - so the nerves are strung - in reality with a few hand intervened, it would be done quickly
...open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.
Posaunes tip to rotate the sleeve in the armhole is easy and fast to do and possibly removes all the problems. Especially the left sleeve looks twisted. Try it. In case it doesnīt work, we will try somthing different. Iīm sure we will solve this as well although we both hate fitting sleeves. By the way, "sleeve seam" means armhole seam I think.
...open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.
Regarding the neckhole: Iīve adressed this in post #168. In case you did it then it was not sufficient.
I also think you should clip the left front neckhole 2/3 from the shoulderseam down.
When you redraw the neckline, keep the old, higher line in center back and smooth in to the new lines at the shoulder seam.
The aim is to get the back neckhole running horizontal when worn. It seems it dips now for circa 1-1,5 cm in center back. just let your wife draw a new back neck line on the toile when you wear it. in the pattern the back neckhole will just be shallower.
Something you should do in any case: the curve of the front armhole and the front curve of the sleeve should be fully congruent from sideseam to about 1" above your first prick. This is important for a clean sleeve.
Ease will certainly help to cover that shoulder bone. measure the armhole line and the cap line with the tape measure standing on itīs edge. the cap shloud be longer for about 3cm. The ease should be distributed around the thight area of the shoulder bone.
Did You measure the cap and scye lines?
The cap seems very narrow and pointy in itīs top. make the upper front side curve a bit fuller. You can shift the turning point of the front S-curve a bit downwards if necessary. The whole front S curve will be a bit steeper.
The low end of the back curve is to full. here you can shift the S-curve turning point nearly 1" upwards, and increase the distance between the bow and the diagonal.
Once again, do you think I need to add ease? Or would it be better to make the shoulder ends a trifle wider?
That will likely just cause little divots.
What is a divot? The dictionary says itīs a piece of lawn (what doubtlessly would be a unique fashion statement).
I would love to see a version with the sleeve set in unrotated. Side seam and sleeve seam meeting, vertical line of ths sleeve meeting the shoulder seam. (I know, I know, donīt hate me; maybe it helps to call it practicing).
How did you set in the sleeve? do the shoulder seam and the center line notch at the cap meet?
The warp threads really should run vertical for long lasting. The line down the back, if this is following the warp, is in error. It really shouldn't be on bias.
We have drawn the center back slanted to accomodate the shifted hip. This slanted center line is just a construction line.
The grain should run perpendicular to the chest/waist/hem line. When using stripes, the center stripe should run through the center point at the yoke.
Did you change the front yoke seam, former dart? It ends a lot more towards the front than before. Please reassure you didnīt shorten the front with the new seam, because the front balance seems to be shorter/ too short at the moment. (diagonal folds starting at the nipples).
I dontīwant to be picky, but the balance isnīt ok yet. The front is too short. (did you eventually make the back balance longer with the new yoke?)
Is there a reason the right shoulder line is longer than the left? Or does it just seem so on the pic?
Here the front was dropped 3/8" on the side seams of the back. Chest and waist lines are now horizontal on the left. On the right, not so much.
First: Ironing the toile following the grain and cross grain will restore the original form if distorted. Preshrinking is not necessary, you wonīt wash the toile, and the steam iron hardly will shrink the heavy cotton. you can check the distortion by laying on the paper pattern pieces.
Dropping the front makes the front balance shorter relatively to the back, not longer. Where did you add length in post 256?
Just to make it clear:
when I say front balance, I mean the vertical distance between the front chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neckhole.
When I say back balance I mean the vertical distance between the back chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neck hole.
Maybe your back balance is longer than before because you mixed up sewing line and sewing allowance line? please compare this measurement in toile and pattern.
Meanwhile I have looked on your arms a little closer. The right arm is the one with the some issues, so I would like you to continue with the sleeve on the left side. (Your right elbow goes backwards and outwards , your left doesn t).
Where the waistline exactly is, is insignificant until waist shaping is introduced, as the sloper describes just a straight tube.
This is absurd. And it probably speaks of the failure of drafting in this way. Knowing the waistline height is important for proportioning the garment pattern. Unless one is drafting a collection of potato sacks. For a fitted garment the back waist can be taken to the body contour anyway (or a depression measure taken if that sort of fit is required). There are two other books: How to Draft Patterns by Donald McCunn, and the Winifred Aldrich book, both which follow the similar creation of a standard block to be spun out into other patterns. Both of them consider waist locations throughout.
It's no wonder people are walking around dazed in circles wondering why drafting and fitting is 'too hard'. It's falsely made to look overly-hard by overblown nonsense. You see this a lot in those post-1900 drafting books where academically frustrated authors dress up fairly simple ideas as advanced trigonometry.
It seems to me there is not much merit in carving a toothpick out of a two-ton block of oak, which is the sort of methodology this particular 'sloper' rendered into other garments seems to want to pursue.