Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Bespoke Professionals => The Coatmakers Forum => Topic started by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 05:23:57 AM

Title: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 05:23:57 AM
I checked a number of books and was unable to find this particular problem addressed, so would be grateful for any advice and assistance. 

Here are three photos of a jacket I just finished.  The pattern is adapted from the 1970 Tailor and Cutter "SB Sports or Lounge Jacket" pattern.  The collar has been changed to a mandarin style and the side darts eliminated.  The jacket was cut to 42 regular proportions (matching my chest size) in a contemporary size chart.

What is the cause of the vertical folds in the back shoulder area?  Is the back too wide for my build, or is it more likely a sleeve issue?

I have applied an "unsharp mask" to the photos to make the wrinkling more obvious.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/LFUSM_zps0kfzysuh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Lbackusm_zps7lkiisj8.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_back_usm_zpsm2j9ss1r.jpg)
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: hutch-- on March 15, 2016, 05:49:16 AM
Jim,

Jackets are not an area that I am all that familiar with but I have some idea as to the problem you mentioned. The front fit looks good but I can see the side folds from the back view that you mentioned. At a guess it looks like you have made the 2 back panels a bit wider than a narrow fit would have but it probably gives you more shoulder movement. Just to explain, I bought a retro trench coat that was a very close fit but it did not have enough shoulder movement. After wearing it for a while I ripped out the back of a sleeve seam by reach up with both arms to do something.

I have seen jacket designs that effectively have a center gusset to allow for extra should movement but without one I would suggest that there is a trade off between fit and movement. At least with the extra room behind the sleeves you don't risk tearing the back of the sleeve seam. Perhaps one of the folks here with more experience in jacket patterns and design could help you.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Henry Hall on March 15, 2016, 05:52:54 AM
The back balance is out, you can see the slight lift and kicking out from the rear view. To me the shape of the back seems too wide compared to the shoulder. I'll wait for a more professional opinion, but check out King-Wilson's diagnosis chart for balance errors and problems. The book is available here.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: posaune on March 15, 2016, 08:20:09 AM
You should do photos with a better perspective. Straight from front, back, and side view with a horizotnal and vertical line in the back if possible - on must see your posture. As Henry remarked it looks like the balance is off. But I can't see all things clearly. Looks a bit tight at front (3th-4th. button), collar stands away from neck. And in back happened a mistake in the setting of the shoulder pads. Your fabric can not roll into the armhole fold. The sleeves are not 100%. Right side hanging??
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 08:22:39 AM
Thanks guys.

I looked at the draft again, and realized that one of the darts I eliminated runs into the bottom of the scye.  The width of the dart is not specified, but that's probably at least 1/2" extra width in the back scye area than was intended.  I'm sure that's contributing to the issue but doubt it accounts for all of it.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 08:42:40 AM
Here are front, back and side as requested.  There are no shoulder pads.  There is a fairly thick sleeve head running from the front sleeve seam around the top to about two inches below the back seam.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsausuvmxi.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpstzgtxdox.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_side_zps7znjmwx1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_side_zpsv1qosrmp.jpg)
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Henry Hall on March 15, 2016, 09:11:23 AM
The right hand sleeve is slightly rotated too far back, you can see the effect in the back shoulder. You have no pads in and the shoulders are beyond the natural shoulder so it will contribute. The back is short too, so the balance is affected. What was the reason for eliminating the under-arm dart?

I'm going to let Posaune or someone else take it from here, they are more qualified.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: peterle on March 15, 2016, 09:14:43 AM
Do You want to install shoulder pads? The pattern surely was made for shoulder pads.
To me, the shoulders seem too wide.  One can see your natural shoulder poking through and forming a bulge and the shoulder collapses after this point.
when you want a "spalla naturale" your shoulders are at least 1 inch too wide.
When you want such exaggerating shoulders, you have to support them.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: pfaff260 on March 15, 2016, 09:18:45 AM
No shoulderpads. That's probably your problem. These drafts have shoulderpads incorparated. When you don't insert pads, you take off about 1 cm off the front and 1,5 cm off the back. These folds indicate that there is to much cloth on the shoulder. Try putting in some shoulderpads and your folds might disappear.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: TTailor on March 15, 2016, 09:25:38 AM
You could and should also photograph the pattern.


What I see is the balance is off - the back is short, not by a lot, but enough, and it looks like you should do a flat seat alteration on the jacket.
Have you made allowances at the front waist? in profile, your front waist is beyond the chest so that needs to be allowed for in the pattern.
If you do not have any shoulder padding you need to have a look at whether you have fit the shoulders properly. You must remove some of the drafts allowance for padding but also increase the amount of ease in the back shoulder as you get closer to the natural body.
Check your cross back measurement too, if you want a closer fit, then you want the cross back plus a smaller amount of extra ease there.

So answers to your specific questions in a nutshell: the back folds are too much width cross back and a shoulder that needs to be looked at and fit a bit bettr, probably also moving the armhole line in slightly to align more with a narrower back panel.The above notes are extra things to deal with.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 11:38:59 AM
Thank you ladies and gentlemen for all your help.  I don't want to do too much personal fitting on this jacket because it is not for me.  I was approached by members of a religious community that wears this style.  Having examined one of their member's jackets, I drafted the pattern for my RTW size of 42R.  This one is intended as a sample, not a personal item.

I eliminated the underarm dart to simplify construction.  Also, these people are "plain" dressers and do not want a too closely fitted style. 

Based on your advice, my next step will be to make and install shoulder padding. 

I sincerely appreciate your comments.  I plan to make a personal jacket next (with a conventional collar) and will keep your observations in mind.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Jeffrey2117 on March 15, 2016, 11:52:48 AM
Hello,

    There are a few issues that I see from viewing the newer set of photo's. 

You will notice that the right shoulder appears to be higher than the left shoulder. 

The right sleeve is shorter than the left, due to the right arm length being longer than the left arm. 

If you notice the jacket is being pulled from the higher left to the lower right at a slight angle.

I also see some balance issues with the jacket.  The sleeves need to be moved/rotated forwards slightly.  Mark the original positions first before you do this.

The shoulders appear to be slightly too wide and drooping, causing the issues below the arm. 

The missing shoulder pads and extra sleeve head may exaggerate many of these issues. Your draft accounted for shoulder pads which are now not present. 

If you plan to install shoulder pads, you may wish to try another set of sleeve heads that are not so thick and see how they affect the sleeve afterwards.

First, keep it simple, look for easiest ways to attempt to resolve your problems. 

King's book identifies many issues and solutions relating to lateral and vertical balance.   If you can find this book, this will help you very much.  Why re-invent the wheel?

I would recommend tacking some shoulder pads in first before attempting any major alterations and making greater issues.

 se a thinner pad for the left shoulder and wider for the right shoulder, afterwards you may view a big difference.  See how this affects the jacket before pulling everything apart!

I also wanted to ask if you did any stretching or shrinking of the cloth during construction.

I hope that this helps you!

Kind regards

Jeffrey2117
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Schneiderfrei on March 15, 2016, 12:02:20 PM
The King Wilson Book is located on this forum as a download already,  Its hard to find in the original.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlzh4unexc4vnjr/king-wilson-the-art-of-cutting-and-fitting-1958.pdf?dl=0

G
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 01:04:52 PM
Quote
I also wanted to ask if you did any stretching or shrinking of the cloth during construction.

The back was shrunk at the shoulder seam after basting (before machine sewing).  The sleeve caps were treated the same.  I did not do any "ironwork" in the chest or front shoulders, but I did work some darts in the canvas for shaping.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Henry Hall on March 15, 2016, 02:38:02 PM
Thank you ladies and gentlemen for all your help.  I don't want to do too much personal fitting on this jacket because it is not for me.  I was approached by members of a religious community that wears this style.  Having examined one of their member's jackets, I drafted the pattern for my RTW size of 42R.  This one is intended as a sample, not a personal item.

I eliminated the underarm dart to simplify construction.  Also, these people are "plain" dressers and do not want a too closely fitted style. 

Based on your advice, my next step will be to make and install shoulder padding. 

I sincerely appreciate your comments.  I plan to make a personal jacket next (with a conventional collar) and will keep your observations in mind.

Don't make shoulder padding based on modelling it on yourself though. First put the coat on a standard form and note how the rear scye looks, if there is less (or more) of a fold problem you can start to discover why. As seen on yourself, any shortness from the back neck to the level of the scye (under the arm) is going to give you gyp, and where blade prominence is evident it makes it worse. You need to see it on whoever would wear it before you plan anything.

Anyway you said this was a model coat. Be sure to note the figuration of the people you'll be making for.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 15, 2016, 11:19:58 PM

Don't make shoulder padding based on modelling it on yourself though. First put the coat on a standard form and note how the rear scye looks, if there is less (or more) of a fold problem you can start to discover why. As seen on yourself, any shortness from the back neck to the level of the scye (under the arm) is going to give you gyp, and where blade prominence is evident it makes it worse. You need to see it on whoever would wear it before you plan anything.

Anyway you said this was a model coat. Be sure to note the figuration of the people you'll be making for.

That absolutely makes sense in ordinary circumstances; but I don't own or have access to a standard form.  And I haven't actually met the people who are interested in these yet.  Looking at their website I see a more or less average range of body types, so I figured "regular" would be a safe starting point.

I just want a sample to take to an initial meeting, to show them what I can make.  Since I'm the only available model, it should look decent on me; but not so closely fitted that someone else couldn't use it.

Perhaps I should have started this discussion in the RTW forum, but this is the only area identified for coat making topics.   
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: hutch-- on March 16, 2016, 05:08:26 AM
Jim,

This location is fine, the RTW area is not up and going yet and you are hardly going into offshore mass production. From what you have explained of the requirements, the design has a lot of tolerance and it does not have to be close fitting which probably reduces the range you have to cater for. I would imagine that you will still have to deal with size variations in height girth and arm length but with what you have explained, it may be closer to the old army view of clothing than Saville Row close fitting business jackets.

I like the plain austere design and I imagine it will well suit a conservative religious group. I did have another comment from all of the photos you posted, the bottom edge of the coat appears to spread slightly, almost bell shaped and a slight necking of the bottom 4 inches or so would probably improve the straightness of the appearance and give you a little more tolerance in terms of the final result.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 16, 2016, 07:58:29 AM

I like the plain austere design and I imagine it will well suit a conservative religious group. I did have another comment from all of the photos you posted, the bottom edge of the coat appears to spread slightly, almost bell shaped and a slight necking of the bottom 4 inches or so would probably improve the straightness of the appearance and give you a little more tolerance in terms of the final result.

That's an interesting thought, but particularly if it stays ventless I think I should leave some room in case someone has a prominent seat.  If they want it straighter maybe I'll let out the seams at waist level, or do some of that combined with a more tapered bottom.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Henry Hall on March 16, 2016, 08:39:01 AM
In my opinion the 1960s sports jacket, with its shaping, was probably not the best starting model for creating a looser fitting style. There are other drafts, for other types of garments that would suit this style better. Perhaps something from the Regal Garment Cutter (a.k.a. American Garment Cutter) would be better? They're old (1914 no less) and probably trickier to make up, but they do have the 'sack' coat silhouette.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: TTailor on March 16, 2016, 09:30:02 AM
In my opinion the 1960s sports jacket, with its shaping, was probably not the best starting model for creating a looser fitting style. There are other drafts, for other types of garments that would suit this style better. Perhaps something from the Regal Garment Cutter (a.k.a. American Garment Cutter) would be better? They're old (1914 no less) and probably trickier to make up, but they do have the 'sack' coat silhouette.
I disagree about using a draft as old as 1914.
Their draft and fit is not quite as adaptable in my opinion. There was a lot of manipulation of fabrics to make them work and that really isn't practical with most of the fabrics commonly available. (Yes one could order some $100/m 12 oz wool, but I doubt the clients are wanting to invest that kind of money, though I could be wrong there).
Jruley doesn't tell us if he is trying to construct multiples in standerd sizes, which does make a difference in approach.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: Henry Hall on March 16, 2016, 10:03:10 AM
No doubt you're right. I did remark that they were old and thus tricky, but I can't think of any more modern draft that has the silhouette of the straighter sack-type coat Jruley is looking to make.

Having looked at that source T&C sports jacket draft again, it's not all that suppressed really. The under-arm dart could have been left alone and just the front dart left out.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: hutch-- on March 16, 2016, 10:15:31 AM
 :)
Quote
That's an interesting thought, but particularly if it stays ventless I think I should leave some room in case someone has a prominent seat.  If they want it straighter maybe I'll let out the seams at waist level, or do some of that combined with a more tapered bottom.
I think Jim is on the right track here, slightly letting the waistline out a little will straighten the jacket and perhaps a split at the back will make it easier to sit in. If the shoulder slope and back width can be corrected I think Jim is on his way to a successful design that can be scaled up and down to suit a number of different sized people.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: tom bennett on March 16, 2016, 10:21:05 AM
I wonder if this is of any use. Cutters Practical Guide 19th ed.

(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/bespoke%20tailor%20forum/drafting%20systems/SB-BLazer-whole-back_zpsfgflr9qw.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/twbennett/media/bespoke%20tailor%20forum/drafting%20systems/SB-BLazer-whole-back_zpsfgflr9qw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 16, 2016, 12:35:20 PM
I made a couple of shoulder pads using the directions in Roberto Cabrera's book, then installed them.  Here's what the result looks like:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/front_sp_zps4qjslx1t.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/back_sp_zpsj0bdtua2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_side_sp_zpsgiqxlix0.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_side_sp_zpsf1xscbzo.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_front_sp_zpstxrfawvf.jpg)

[IMGhttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_front_sp_zpssnrkzux0.jpg]http://[/img]

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_back_sp_zpscjhxtwgc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_back_sp_zpshdq8iljo.jpg)

It seems to have helped, especially on the left side; but the back is clearly too wide for me.
Title: Re: Vertical Folds at Back Shoulder
Post by: jruley on March 16, 2016, 01:06:24 PM
Thanks Henry, TTailor and tombennett for sharing your thoughts on patterns.  This is actually the third pattern I've considered, though it's the first to make it to the sample stage.

The first pattern came from a supplier that caters to Amish communities (similar but not the same as the potential customers).  Intended for home sewing, it was extremely squarish, with even wider shoulders and scyes about two inches too deep.  What they are wearing today amounts to a classic modern style RTW jacket with a Mandarin collar.  I thought I could do better and this would probably be too "Grandma Moses" for them.  Availability of these patterns is also sporadic, so I preferred to provide my own.

Having some experience with F. T. Croonborg's 1907 "Blue Book of Men's Tailoring" I next drafted up his "Policeman's Blouse", which is a sack coat body with a standing collar.  The resulting mockup fit me fairly well, but has the opposite issues:  very close fitting and with a high and tight armscye.  Based on what they are now wearing, I think they want something easier fitting, and I am hoping to be able to work with standard sizes.

The 1970 drafts were available on the old Forum before it went down and seemed to be well thought of by some of the regulars.  I selected the sports jacket as the less shaped of the two.  I did the pattern draft, made a mockup, and thought I had found a happy medium; somewhat shaped but not tight, with an "easy" scye but not too deep.  I didn't realize there was an issue with the back until after making the sample and taking photos.

The size chart (supposedly also from the 1970 T&C and taken from the old Forum) shows a half back measure of 8-3/4 inches for a 42 regular.  I applied this on top of the 1/2" for "drape" allowed in the pattern, plus two seam allowances of course.  Is this in the ballpark or much wider than I should have done?