Author Topic: Developing the "Casual" Jacket  (Read 11489 times)

peterle

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2016, 09:39:49 PM »
 Youīve been busy I see.
To proceed I have some questions:

What kind of jacket is to be targeted?

What do you want to achieve with the back darts? Do you want  to get the hem nearer to the body or do you want to nip the waist for a slimmer line? These tasks demand different approaches.

The darts at the front are chest darts meanwhile. The darts I was thinking of just were to get rid of a wavy hem in the case a corrected/ increased front balance isnīt enough to remove it. The intended darts would hardly reach the waistline.

 With a chest dart, you add some length and width for the chest (good thing), but you donīt change the relative position of front and back.  you have to shift the front upwards in the side seams to get everything right. It would have been much easier to insert a strip of fabric across the chest and deal with the superfluous resulting length at the armhole.



jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2016, 11:43:03 PM »

What kind of jacket is to be targeted?

What do you want to achieve with the back darts? Do you want  to get the hem nearer to the body or do you want to nip the waist for a slimmer line? These tasks demand different approaches.


Good points.  I don't have a specific style in mind; I just wanted to try this and see what would happen.

So, let's go back to the latest changes to the short version (post #27).  The front darts have become chest darts here as well.  Do you think this will work or is more front length still needed?

peterle

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2016, 01:38:03 AM »
Well thatīs the cause I asked what kind of jacket is wanted.

The short one seems to be meant as a blouson? A blouson will not have front darts, the width would be eased in a (knitted) band. thatīs why these kind of jackets are a bit looser at the front of scye.

When youīr after a tight classical denim jacket, there would be plenty of  vertical seams to incorporate all the necessary darts for a skin tight fit.

Now you have added a lounge coat chest dart to a basically shirt pattern. This will not work because in a lounge coat pattern the angles between armhole, shoulder center front, side seam are totally different compared to a shirt. The dart alone doesnīt create length.

I would like you to unpin the front darts and shift the fronts upwards at the side seams for about 2cm. We can look then wich step to take next.




jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2016, 03:47:49 AM »
The short one seems to be meant as a blouson? A blouson will not have front darts, the width would be eased in a (knitted) band. thatīs why these kind of jackets are a bit looser at the front of scye.

When youīr after a tight classical denim jacket, there would be plenty of  vertical seams to incorporate all the necessary darts for a skin tight fit.

The jacket will be made of denim, there will not be a knitted waistband or wrist bands.  Don't know where you got the blouson idea as I never mentioned it.
 
I would like it to be form fitting, but not skin tight.  There needs to be room to accomodate a heavy shirt and/or sweater.


Quote
I would like you to unpin the front darts and shift the fronts upwards at the side seams for about 2cm. We can look then wich step to take next.

Will do.  I will also put the yoke seam back to its former position.

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2016, 04:41:03 AM »
Here it is with the darts removed and the fronts raised 3/4" at side seams.  The yoke seam has been restored to where it was in post #20.  The only waist suppression is from the slanted CB seam which was incorporated in the shortened body pattern.









It seems to me that the shoulder seam line is too far back and the neck hole is out of position; too high in front and too low in back.  The garment also stands further off the waist in front than back.

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2016, 05:05:22 AM »
Just for comparison, here I have lowered the front 1/2" at the side seams (i.e. 1-1/4" below where it was in the last set).

This seems to fit much better around the neck and shoulders:









theresa in tucson

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2016, 07:50:14 AM »
J, will this short jacket be something like a classic Levi "cowboy" jacket?  If so, the Levi jacket is cut along princess (or prince since it is a guys jacket) lines and can be tailored for a close fit.  Check out the line drawings on some old KWIK SEW jackets.

Henry Hall

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2016, 08:27:18 AM »
Such as the treatment given to the back in this draft: Chaudhry - Denim Jacket

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2016, 09:43:49 AM »
Such as the treatment given to the back in this draft: Chaudhry - Denim Jacket

Thanks Henry and Theresa.  I actually considered starting with that draft, but would have to adjust it for my dropped shoulder and scoliosis.  And anyway I wanted to see if the methods in the M&I Kim book for turning a shirt sloper into a casual jacket pattern really worked.

I like the overall length, waist belt, and sleeve of the Chaudhry draft, but I think the separate side panel is for slimmer people than me.  It will work in a suit jacket with a structured chest, but not something like this.

I'm thinking of shaping the front similar to this tailored version of an Eisenhower jacket (but without the military style pockets, epaulets, and lapels):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower_jacket#/media/File:Eisenhower_jacket_88122.jpg

I also like the golf or "bi-swing" back which was originally a feature of that garment.

peterle

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2016, 09:36:53 PM »
Youīr yoyoing the  back balance. I lose track.

Shortenig the back and lengthening the front will increase the difference more then intended. The intention was to lengthen the front balance compared to the back balance of #27 for about 2cm at least.  Taking #20 as starting point is a different story because itīs less unbalanced.


So it should be like the Eisenhower? This is basically a kind of blouson and has a band. The linked one has two darts at the front and is gathered to fit into the waistband. Itīs not really tight.

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2016, 10:24:36 PM »
Shortenig the back and lengthening the front will increase the difference more then intended. The intention was to lengthen the front balance compared to the back balance of #27 for about 2cm at least.  Taking #20 as starting point is a different story because itīs less unbalanced.

Please forget all previous versions, and take either #34 or #35 as the new starting point.  I think #35 fits better at the neck, but I'm starting to wonder if I really understand "balance" at all!

Quote
So it should be like the Eisenhower? This is basically a kind of blouson and has a band. The linked one has two darts at the front and is gathered to fit into the waistband. Itīs not really tight.

I don't care for the "gathered" look, so I want some kind of darts to shape the front.  The band might go all the way around, or only from the side seams back.

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2016, 03:22:19 AM »
While waiting for the master, I decided to fiddle with passing the back up and down some more to cover the full range of possibilities.  This is with the front chest line raised a full 2" relative to the back:









And here, dropped 1" below (3" change from the last one):









Of course neither of these is reasonable.  The first one pulls away from the neck in back; the second one climbs it in back and pulls away in front.

What these do show is that no reasonable amount of passing the back up and down will bring the chest and waist lines horizontal.  I think the main reason for the slant must be the backward tilt of my spine due to my "hips forward" stance. 

To bring these lines horizontal, I think it might be necessary to angle the CF line and side seam lines as shown in post #71 of this thread:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=189.60

peterle

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2016, 07:38:59 PM »
The alterations of the link wonīt work. This works for garments that are collapsing at the chest and have a diagonal drag from the belly towards the upper back. Thatīs not the problem here. Weīve adapted the shirt pattern for this posture with a slanting CF.

I think the first alternative of #41 hangs a lot better than the second (neglecting the neckhole). The second alternative is distorted as you can see in the back folds (quite messy inside and gaping).



I donīt have a clue what causes the back to pull away, so we have to find out:

Suspect number 1:
How far up does your slanted back seam reach? Is it from the waist to the yoke seam? If yes, this dart would change the upper back area completely making it thighter at the armhole and roomy at the middle and shorter over the blades. It would get a lot rounder and would rotate in this position to compensate the tightness when allowed by a longer front balance. In this case this dart must be removed ( just insert a strip of fabric when there isnīt enough allowance). We can rid of the width later at a  far better spot.


Suspect number 2:  Less likely: the front armhole in not cut out in the longer front balance version. This could restrict the movement of the garment.


For diagnostic reasons it would be a good idea to baste the back fold close and pin the center back neck to the spot where it belongs.

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2016, 03:42:57 AM »
Weīve adapted the shirt pattern for this posture with a slanting CF.


All slant was removed from the CF line of the shirt pattern after post #170 of the sloper thread:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=238.165

I didn't show the pattern again, so you must have missed it.

I think the first alternative of #41 hangs a lot better than the second (neglecting the neckhole).


Maybe I have some kind of mental block, but I can't understand why you would want to start fitting with the neckhole so far out of position?  In order to correct it later, you would need to move the yoke up and forward.  This means lengthening the upper back, and also shortening the upper front .  Or in other words, turning #41 into #42.  Why not just start with #42?

If #41 fits better than #42, does that mean a lower position of the yoke seam is beneficial?  If that is the case why not try a taller yoke?

jruley

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Re: Developing the "Casual" Jacket
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2016, 09:38:46 AM »
Probably should have posted this earlier.  Here is the waist length jacket pattern as it now stands.

The backs.  The CB dart goes all the way from waist line to the yoke seam.



The fronts.  The only slant in the CF line is from chest line up, due to the wedge added in post #9.



The left side, giving an idea of the proportions.